General Rugby Discussion II

swiwi_

Has anyone ANYONE ever seen a free kick given for not supporting your jumper in the line out?

It’s in the laws but ive never seen it applied.

razorblunt

Decent article on Rob Horne ahead of the game at Twickenham.
Incredibly positive mental attitude.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45727533

stephen_n

swiwi_ wrote: »

Has anyone ANYONE ever seen a free kick given for not supporting your jumper in the line out?

It’s in the laws but ive never seen it applied.

Pretty hard one to police though, how do you judge what support is enough support? You can have a perfectly good lift, but the jumper could lean a little to far over and physics kick in.

irishbucsfan

I’ve seen it given at low levels, but I’d imagine it’d almost never even enter a refs mind at pro level

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

I think it was Ultan Dillane at the weekend who fired SOB2 into the air and completely lost him, leaving SOB2 to land on the deck. It's in the laws but it's never enforced.

It was penalised for jumping across.

Burkie1203

swiwi_ wrote: »

Has anyone ANYONE ever seen a free kick given for not supporting your jumper in the line out?

It’s in the laws but ive never seen it applied.

Yes there was 1 or 2 in the last 12-18 months
IIRC it was John Lacey who gave the free.

jr86

Cipriani with a massive performance again today and premiership player of the month for September to boot. How long can Jones keep the pathetic "form" excuse up?

Two losses in the Autumn and i think EJ will/should get door

sydthebeat

Some laugh with ROG woody and BOD on of the ball tonight....

Well worth a listen back for anyone who's missing it

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

Some laugh with ROG woody and BOD on of the ball tonight....

Well worth a listen back for anyone who's missing it

Yeah, heard some of it in the car. ROG was very interestiing on his coaching. Will have to listen to the whole thing when it's uploaded.

b.gud

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah, heard some of it in the car. ROG was very interestiing on his coaching. Will have to listen to the whole thing when it's uploaded.

Haven't watched it yet but it looks like the whole thing is on Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trcizl7Cj3o

Neil3030

What's the salary cap in the Aviva Prem?

Assuming centrally contracted players count, would Leinster exceed it?

prawnsambo

b.gud wrote: »

Haven't watched it yet but it looks like the whole thing is on Youtube

Well worth watching. It really only takes off when ROG arrives. Late.


So about twenty odd minutes in, and for the next hour or so it's the ROG show and great viewing/listening.

troyzer

Neil3030 wrote: »

What's the salary cap in the Aviva Prem?

Assuming centrally contracted players count, would Leinster exceed it?

£7m. But you also get up to £100k each for 8 academy players. You're also allowed to exclude two players from the cap (presumably your two best paid)

There's no way Leinster would come anywhere near that.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

£7m. But you also get up to £100k each for 8 academy players. You're also allowed to exclude two players from the cap (presumably your two best paid)

There's no way Leinster would come anywhere near that.

Really? I mean, Leinster have a big squad and a lot of internationals. It is probably a bit difficult to separate out "provincial" salary from "international" salary with the Irish players I guess but while I don't think Leinster would exceed that cap, I'm less sure they would be a million miles off it.

prawnsambo

Podge_irl wrote: »

Really? I mean, Leinster have a big squad and a lot of internationals. It is probably a bit difficult to separate out "provincial" salary from "international" salary with the Irish players I guess but while I don't think Leinster would exceed that cap, I'm less sure they would be a million miles off it.

Yeah. I have some factual information on what a couple of players are being paid. Guys who would be on the fringes of the Irish squad would be earning in the region of €150 - 250k. And there are a fair number in that bracket.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Really? I mean, Leinster have a big squad and a lot of internationals. It is probably a bit difficult to separate out "provincial" salary from "international" salary with the Irish players I guess but while I don't think Leinster would exceed that cap, I'm less sure they would be a million miles off it.

There are about €3m worth of central contracts in Leinster, under the Premiership rules you'd be able to ignore Sexton and O'Brien which make up about €1.1m.

So you have about €1.9m worth of central contracts against that £7m (we'll just say the exchange rate is 1:1 for simplicity).

Then you basically get 8 academy players for free. We have about 20 on the books so assuming that you'd take the top 8 highest paid off, you're probably saving well over half of the costs for your academy.

The salaries drop rapidly once you're only on a provincial contract, I'd be astonished if it was over €5m all in which is nowhere near £7m.

The Lost Sheep

troyzer wrote: »

£7m. But you also get up to £100k each for 8 academy players. You're also allowed to exclude two players from the cap (presumably your two best paid)

There's no way Leinster would come anywhere near that.

Large squad with plenty of internationals. Leinster would come very close to that figure.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

There are about €3m worth of central contracts in Leinster, under the Premiership rules you'd be able to ignore Sexton and O'Brien which make up about €1.1m.

So you have about €1.9m worth of central contracts against that £7m (we'll just say the exchange rate is 1:1 for simplicity).

Then you basically get 8 academy players for free. We have about 20 on the books so assuming that you'd take the top 8 highest paid off, you're probably saving well over half of the costs for your academy.

The salaries drop rapidly once you're only on a provincial contract, I'd be astonished if it was over €5m all in which is nowhere near £7m.

The other wrinkle is that a lot of the central contract money isn't actually a salary. A lot of it comes in the form of guaranteed sponsorship deals. I'm not sure exactly how that works but I presume it takes the form of when the Irish Dairy Council want to partner up with the IRFU, the IRFU gives them Joey Carbery. So his salary gets topped up by a third party which wouldn't count against the cap.

Neil3030

I only clock one team under 7m here - Sale (6.5)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/aug/28/premiership-finances-the-full-club-by-club-breakdown-and-verdict

I'm guessing these wagebills include coaches, directors etc? Otherwise, it'd be a fair stretch for the likes of Sarries to claim their 2 marquee players and 8 academy lads account for nearly 5m!

awec

I would say Leinster are right up there in terms of salary spend among all the clubs in Britain and Ireland. Hard not to be with the size of the squad and the number of internationals in it.

Neil3030

SportsJoe, so don't neglect the sodium, but:

Although Leinster and the IRFU do not reveal player wages, and there is no Irish version of the DNACG, the province's overall wage bill would be slightly over €10m.

troyzer

Neil3030 wrote: »

SportsJoe, so don't neglect the sodium, but:

I'd stand corrected in that case.

I can't imagine it would be TOO difficult to get below the cap. Losing SOB and Jack McGrath alone would save €1m and they're largely surplus at this point.

Neil3030

troyzer wrote: »

I'd stand corrected in that case.

I can't imagine it would be TOO difficult to get below the cap. Losing SOB and Jack McGrath alone would save €1m and they're largely surplus at this point.

Well under Aviva rules, you could knock off two marquees (Sexton and O'Brien), then another chunk for the academy allowance, which would reduce the cap spend closer to €8m or thereabouts. By today's fx rate, that's pretty much £7m on the nose.

Podge_irl

troyzer wrote: »

I'd stand corrected in that case.

I can't imagine it would be TOO difficult to get below the cap. Losing SOB and Jack McGrath alone would save €1m and they're largely surplus at this point.

They're not remotely surplus to why Leinster are so successful - the incredible depth they possess is a huge factor.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

They're not remotely surplus to why Leinster are so successful - the incredible depth they possess is a huge factor.

Yes but they're very expensive for what they are: backups.

They're not surplus in the context of there not being a shortgage of money, should have made that clear. But if a Premiership style salary cap came in, they'd be the two obvious ones to go.

Buer

Hard to estimate on that SportsJoe article. It appears to be from 2 years ago. So we can discount guys like Heaslip, Nacewa, Murphy, Kirchner, Mike McCarthy, Mike Ross, Hayden Triggs, Dominic Ryan and Richardt Strauss from proceedings. All of them would have been on sigificant salaries amounting to over €2m, I'd guess (Heaslip alone was supposed to be approx. €500k). They've been replaced but many of the replacements would be on less cash, I'd guess based o their experience and lack of test exposure.

All in all, however, I'd expect Leinster's wage bill to be not far off the top GP sides. You simply cannot keep a squad of that size and quality without spending the cash.

irishbucsfan

The salary cap has two goals. Prevent individual clubs from buying success and longer term prevent outrageous wage inflation.

The fact that our provinces are funded by a single body and ultimately all that money is earned from the sport (very little inward investment) means we are effectively capped and always will be (at least while the IRFU remain in their current form).

I’d say Leinster wouldn’t have much trouble fitting into either the Top 14 or Aviva salary caps.

troyzer

To put it into context, the San Francisco Giants had a payroll of $220m for the MLB season that just ended.

They came second last in their division and only won 45% of their games.

Neil3030

troyzer wrote: »

To put it into context, the San Francisco Giants had a payroll of $220m for the MLB season that just ended.

They came second last in their division and only won 45% of their games.

Small matter of them generating 470m in revenue though

troyzer

Neil3030 wrote: »

Small matter of them generating 470m in revenue though

Of course, it's just amazing when you think of how poor rugby is compared to other sports. Especially when in most countries it's considered the sport of the landed gentry, to put it one way.