General Rugby Discussion II

molloyjh

It has to be Sexton. The lynch pin to the sides that have won everything this year. GS, P14, HEC, Aussie tour, clean sweep in the November series. He's been key to it all.

The real mccoy 91

sydthebeat wrote: »

After the game yesterday Sexton had gone from 2/1 to 1/2 for World player of the year

1/10 Now it's a forgone conclusion

troyzer

You have to wonder if this is the beginning of the end for New Zealand rugby. That sounds like ridiculous hyperbole but hear me out.

I was reading an interview with Lima Sopoaga from back in September where he talked about why he decided to take the money over the chance of ever playing for the All Blacks again. He made no apologies for the fact that the money is what motivated him and that he thinks more guys will do it at the peak of their careers, there are already a few in Europe at the moment like Cruden, Savea and Fekitoa. You could argue Lowe and Aki are in the same pot albeit they weren't All Blacks and at the time it seemed like a distant possibility.

Granted, none of these were dead on starters for the All Blacks so for them it was a choice between money and a chance to warm the bench as an All Black. But sooner or later, a big name starter for the All Blacks is going to move north in their prime. Barrett will be 28 by the end of the world cup and there are rumours of Lyon offering him €1.5 million a year, which is nearly three times what he's earning for the Hurricanes. That number presumably will go up with a bit of a bidding war and a successful world cup.

Will he stay? Why would he if he's won the world cup? He'll have had seven years as an All Black, 100+ caps, a world cup, two (maybe three or four) world player of the year awards and probably seven rugby championship titles.

If he goes, the dam will probably break and lots more guys will make the move earlier and earlier in their career. New Zealand simply can't compete with the salaries offered in Europe. Not only that but their financial situation is only likely to get worse with the death of Australian rugby and the potential end of SARU's involvement with Super rugby effectively starving the TV market. The All Blacks would still be incredible but there's no way they'd be able to sustain their utter dominance if they're bleeding players.

This is probably going to happen sooner rather than later, why would any coach want to inherit that?

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

You have to wonder if this is the beginning of the end for New Zealand rugby. That sounds like ridiculous hyperbole but hear me out.

I was reading an interview with Lima Sopoaga from back in September where he talked about why he decided to take the money over the chance of ever playing for the All Blacks again. He made no apologies for the fact that the money is what motivated him and that he thinks more guys will do it at the peak of their careers, there are already a few in Europe at the moment like Cruden, Savea and Fekitoa. You could argue Lowe and Aki are in the same pot albeit they weren't All Blacks and at the time it seemed like a distant possibility.

Granted, none of these were dead on starters for the All Blacks so for them it was a choice between money and a chance to warm the bench as an All Black. But sooner or later, a big name starter for the All Blacks is going to move north in their prime. Barrett will be 28 by the end of the world cup and there are rumours of Lyon offering him €1.5 million a year, which is nearly three times what he's earning for the Hurricanes. That number presumably will go up with a bit of a bidding war and a successful world cup.

Will he stay? Why would he if he's won the world cup? He'll have had seven years as an All Black, 100+ caps, a world cup, two (maybe three or four) world player of the year awards and probably seven rugby championship titles.

If he goes, the dam will probably break and lots more guys will make the move earlier and earlier in their career. New Zealand simply can't compete with the salaries offered in Europe. Not only that but their financial situation is only likely to get worse with the death of Australian rugby and the potential end of SARU's involvement with Super rugby effectively starving the TV market. The All Blacks would still be incredible but there's no way they'd be able to sustain their utter dominance if they're bleeding players.

This is probably going to happen sooner rather than later, why would any coach want to inherit that?

I think losing players is going to be a problem, but I think the collapse of rugby in Australia is a bigger issue for them and South Africa are in poor financial shape also.

If the integrity and competitiveness of super rugby continues to slide then Southern Hemisphere rugby in general could be in a spot of bother.

New Zealand rugby is the jewel in the crown of World Rugby and I think the sport will go a long way to protecting them if needs be. Similarly I think South Africa were the intended target of a cash injection through the World Cup that ultimately didn't materialise despite World Rugby's best efforts.

The most positive thing for Southern Hemisphere teams is the mounting debt issues in the Premiership. It's quite possible that within the next few years the big spending will be confined to the top14 and their new rules will see a reduced demand for foreign signings also. Whilst the money on offer for marques signings will continue to go up, the number of those big signings will almost certainly drop a good deal.

I don't think anything dramatic will happen and NZ rugby is absolutely fine for the most part. They set a new bar prior to 2011 and other teams have just begun to catch up somewhat. I've no doubt that bar will be reset again if Schmidt takes over.

errlloyd

Worst Case scenario for New Zealand they eventually reverse their policy of picking overseas players and a global calendar allows them to do that.

Yeah_Right

troyzer wrote: »

You have to wonder if this is the beginning of the end for New Zealand rugby. That sounds like ridiculous hyperbole but hear me out.

I was reading an interview with Lima Sopoaga from back in September where he talked about why he decided to take the money over the chance of ever playing for the All Blacks again. He made no apologies for the fact that the money is what motivated him and that he thinks more guys will do it at the peak of their careers, there are already a few in Europe at the moment like Cruden, Savea and Fekitoa. You could argue Lowe and Aki are in the same pot albeit they weren't All Blacks and at the time it seemed like a distant possibility.

Granted, none of these were dead on starters for the All Blacks so for them it was a choice between money and a chance to warm the bench as an All Black. But sooner or later, a big name starter for the All Blacks is going to move north in their prime. Barrett will be 28 by the end of the world cup and there are rumours of Lyon offering him €1.5 million a year, which is nearly three times what he's earning for the Hurricanes. That number presumably will go up with a bit of a bidding war and a successful world cup.

Will he stay? Why would he if he's won the world cup? He'll have had seven years as an All Black, 100+ caps, a world cup, two (maybe three or four) world player of the year awards and probably seven rugby championship titles.

If he goes, the dam will probably break and lots more guys will make the move earlier and earlier in their career. New Zealand simply can't compete with the salaries offered in Europe. Not only that but their financial situation is only likely to get worse with the death of Australian rugby and the potential end of SARU's involvement with Super rugby effectively starving the TV market. The All Blacks would still be incredible but there's no way they'd be able to sustain their utter dominance if they're bleeding players.

This is probably going to happen sooner rather than later, why would any coach want to inherit that?

Some interesting points. However I'm not too worried. I've been hearing and reading about the demise of NZ rugby for 40 years. Back then it was due to the '81 Springbok Tour (aka NZ's Civil War) combined with the rise in popularity of soccer from the '82 World Cup and then the Cavaliers tour. NZ rugby survived and won the 87 RWC.

There was the poaching by rugby league clubs. That was the death knell of the ABs. They survived and created one of the best teams in history from '95-'97.

For the last 20 years the NH clubs and unions have been the problem, poaching our players and more recently the demise of Australia and South Africa. The reason I remain confident of not just survival but success is that the suits in charge seem to be aware of these issues and are trying to find solutions. One of the solutions they came up with is the sabbaticals and the joint venture with Harlequins (I think something similar is being organised with Montpelier). I could also see more players doing what Kaino did. Take a couple of years out from the ABs, get paid, play without the pressure and then come back fresh and hungry.

The names you mentioned: Cruden, Savea, Sopoaga, Fekitoa. They had all probably gone as far as they were going to as ABs. Their form had slipped and others had passed them. You could add Luatua to that list. Obviously I would prefer that players of that calibre stayed in NZ and fought for their jersey because it would raise the standard across the board. The same applies to the likes of Lowe and Aki and JGP and Payne etc. Probably never going to be ABs (without injuries) but having them playing NPC and Super Rugby is a huge boost to NZ.

The only player that really left at the peak of his powers was Piutau. And I hope he burns in hell for it :mad:

Squidgy Black

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The only player that really left at the peak of his powers was Piutau. And I hope he burns in hell for it :mad:

He went to Ulster. That was punishment enough.

joseywhales

Ah lads, NZRU could field 3 teams in the top 8

BonnieSituation

Squidgy Black wrote: »

He went to Ulster. That was punishment enough.

Connacht was usually the choice of those avoiding Hell...

How times have changed!

awec

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Some interesting points. However I'm not too worried. I've been hearing and reading about the demise of NZ rugby for 40 years. Back then it was due to the '81 Springbok Tour (aka NZ's Civil War) combined with the rise in popularity of soccer from the '82 World Cup and then the Cavaliers tour. NZ rugby survived and won the 87 RWC.

There was the poaching by rugby league clubs. That was the death knell of the ABs. They survived and created one of the best teams in history from '95-'97.

For the last 20 years the NH clubs and unions have been the problem, poaching our players and more recently the demise of Australia and South Africa. The reason I remain confident of not just survival but success is that the suits in charge seem to be aware of these issues and are trying to find solutions. One of the solutions they came up with is the sabbaticals and the joint venture with Harlequins (I think something similar is being organised with Montpelier). I could also see more players doing what Kaino did. Take a couple of years out from the ABs, get paid, play without the pressure and then come back fresh and hungry.

The names you mentioned: Cruden, Savea, Sopoaga, Fekitoa. They had all probably gone as far as they were going to as ABs. Their form had slipped and others had passed them. You could add Luatua to that list. Obviously I would prefer that players of that calibre stayed in NZ and fought for their jersey because it would raise the standard across the board. The same applies to the likes of Lowe and Aki and JGP and Payne etc. Probably never going to be ABs (without injuries) but having them playing NPC and Super Rugby is a huge boost to NZ.

The only player that really left at the peak of his powers was Piutau. And I hope he burns in hell for it :mad:

People who support the All Blacks and Leinster are the worst.

swiwi_

awec wrote: »

People who support the All Blacks and Leinster are the worst.

That’s me so.

Yeah right is a pashun-ate Munster supporter. IIRC.

troyzer

Has anyone had a look at these Rugby Pass Indices?

I have no idea if they're new or not. The maths is quite interesting and it seems like it would be decent until you notice they have Dave Kilcoyne as the best loosehead in the world? He's a third stringer for his own country and yet he's the best loosehead in the world, bizarre.

It also has Josh Murphy as a better flanker than VdF which is so ****ing preposterous that I. can't. even.

phog

Referee Appointments for this weekend

Spain vs Samoa at Estadio Central Ciudad Universitaria, Madrid, Spain
Referee: Frank Murphy (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Ian Tempest (England), Sam Grove-White (Scotland)
Television match official: Stefano PennItaly)

Italy vs New Zealand at Stadio Olimpico, Rome, Italy
Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant referees: Pascal Gaüz (France), Sean Gallagher (Ireland)
Television match official: Andrew McMenemy (Scotland)

Good to see two more Irish refs being developed and getting International games.

Paul Smeenus

Bloody hell, that Demented Mole podcast is hard listening.

MaybeMaybe

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Bloody hell, that Demented Mole podcast is hard listening.

Its


Sooo


Slow

Paul Smeenus

"Ahhhhh... eaaahhhh... loike.... y'know... <35 secs of dead air>... maybe?"

There are DREADFUL talkers.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR81LAiLjN8

antietam1

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Large income. great.
shame IRFU didnt do anything with that site. GAA has some huge clubs around edge of city. That site could have been used so well for everything from helping new clubs to training base/centre of excellence.

Crfc had hopes of something being done and submitted a proposal, having said that Roadstone social club is between them and the IRFU site.

Squidgy Black

There's talk of Hansen becoming "Director of Rugby" for New Zealand.

Quin_Dub

Squidgy Black wrote: »

There's talk of Hansen becoming "Director of Rugby" for New Zealand.

When? Now or post RWC?

The "move upstairs" would be a sensible one for him and NZ - They get to keep a guy with huge experience and knowledge of their players and systems but also get to bring in a fresh voice as the day to day coach of the national team.

Squidgy Black

Quin_Dub wrote: »

When? Now or post RWC?

The "move upstairs" would be a sensible one for him and NZ - They get to keep a guy with huge experience and knowledge of their players and systems but also get to bring in a fresh voice as the day to day coach of the national team.

Post RWC I'd imagine.

Dave_The_Sheep

Is the Welsh ScumV forum unavailable for anyone else? Haven't been able to access it for a few weeks/months now. Did it go down or something?

Dog Botherer

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Is the Welsh ScumV forum unavailable for anyone else? Haven't been able to access it for a few weeks/months now. Did it go down or something?

Last I heard the owner (and only moderator, apparently) had closed it down temporarily to deal with family issues. No idea when it’ll be back.

clsmooth

So where do we put James Ryan in comparison to Maro Itoje? I put it to an English friend that I would choose him ahead of Itoje and was laughed out of it. Don’t think it’s a ridiculous opinion at all. As impressive as Itoje is and has been, he’s a bit brainless and good for at least one penalty a game. What’s the forums reasoned opinion? Stats welcomed.

troyzer

clsmooth wrote: »

So where do we put James Ryan in comparison to Maro Itoje? I put it to an English friend that I would choose him ahead of Itoje and was laughed out of it. Don’t think it’s a ridiculous opinion at all. As impressive as Itoje is and has been, he’s a bit brainless and good for at least one penalty a game. What’s the forums reasoned opinion? Stats welcomed.

Itoje is a vastly superior lineout option and makes a lot of line breaks for a tight five forward.

Ryan is a better defender, has more guile and is overall a smarter and craftier player.

I'd pick both of them, hard to pick one over the ofher.

clsmooth

clsmooth wrote: »

So where do we put James Ryan in comparison to Maro Itoje? I put it to an English friend that I would choose him ahead of Itoje and was laughed out of it. Don’t think it’s a ridiculous opinion at all. As impressive as Itoje is and has been, he’s a bit brainless and good for at least one penalty a game. What’s the forums reasoned opinion? Stats welcomed.

The two times they've shared a pitch (Leinster v Saracens - Ireland v England) Ryan outperformed Itoje albeit that doesn't answer your question.

mfceiling

When Itoje mocked the Glasgow players by fake celebrating he immediately went into my "what a dick" category. Regardless of talent etc a bit of basic humility on the pitch speaks volumes as to the type of player you are. In that regard Ryan is above him for me and in rugby terms he's only getting started on his path.

clsmooth

Deleted User wrote: »

The two times they've shared a pitch (Leinster v Saracens - Ireland v England) Ryan outperformed Itoje albeit that doesn't answer your question.

Yep, I’ve used this but it’s not really a good argument. You can talk about Heineken Cup/Grand Slam/NZ win and Itoje has all those in the bag too. I think that Ryans quite underrated outside of Ireland but I could genuinely see him captaining the Lions in the future. Not sure I can see Itoje getting the gig. Just feel Ryan is the more mature player at this stage even with only 1 year of top level rugby under his belt. I can’t remember too many ‘what the hell were you thinking moments’ with him. He just consistently produces 8/10 performances. Itoje on the other hand seems always to be good for a stupid penalty. Think he’s a little more eye catching than Ryan hence why people outside of Ireland haven’t noticed just how good he is.

stephen_n

Itoje has good games and bad games, some he just goes missing in, others he’s just a penalty magnet. I can remember at least two games he’s got 4 penalties against him. He is definitely more athletic than Ryan and that shows in the lineout particularly. Ryan is just consistently better all round for me. He always gets over the gain line, is aware of the offload, is just far more intelligent with the ball in hand. His defence and work rate are off the ball is far better for me too. Part of England’s issues in the last 6N was their inability to clear ticks. Itoje probably has a far better highlight real, but doesn’t have the same workrate as Ryan imo.

Dog Botherer

clsmooth wrote: »

Yep, I’ve used this but it’s not really a good argument. You can talk about Heineken Cup/Grand Slam/NZ win and Itoje has all those in the bag too. I think that Ryans quite underrated outside of Ireland but I could genuinely see him captaining the Lions in the future. Not sure I can see Itoje getting the gig. Just feel Ryan is the more mature player at this stage even with only 1 year of top level rugby under his belt. I can’t remember too many ‘what the hell were you thinking moments’ with him. He just consistently produces 8/10 performances. Itoje on the other hand seems always to be good for a stupid penalty. Think he’s a little more eye catching than Ryan hence why people outside of Ireland haven’t noticed just how good he is.

I would agree with this, a lot of casual fans seem to highly rate Itoje but Ryan is more highly rated by those with a better understanding of the game. Ryan is already a fantastically powerful and technically brilliant player, and he's only played one season. Properly managed by the IRFU and he could play another 15 seasons, and he's only going to get better.

Itoje is also a phenomenal athlete, but his attitude does let him down, and he definitely concedes too many soft penalties. That's been a problem with England for a long time though.