Disillusioned

ooter

I'd appreciate any pearls of wisdom from the good people on here, basically I don't feel my last few marathon times are reflecting the training I'm doing and it's really frustrating.
First half of this year I followed the hansons advanced plan for my spring Marathon (6 days a week) and honestly worked my arse off, genuinely thought I was in pb shape (3:14) but I ended up almost 30 mins slower than that.
Ditched hansons for DCM and went back to the plan that got me my PB, the P&D 55 mile (5 days a week) plan. For the first few weeks I had a PB in mind but as the weeks went on I was changing to sub 3:20, sub 3:25 and eventually settled on 3:30, genuinely thought I was in 3:30 shape. I ran the Dublin HM in 1:40 a few weeks ago but didn't go full tilt if I'm being honest so thought 3:30 for the full was doable.
Stuck on the tail of the 3:30 pacers yesterday but by half way I knew it wasn't to be, lost interest after that if I'm being honest and came home a few mins under 4 hours.
Can't get my head around how my times can be so different having followed the same plan but it is what it is.
I've trained only 3 days a week for a marathon in the past and ran a faster time than I did yesterday. I've trained 4 days a week in the past and ran sub 3:30.
Suppose I'm wondering where to go from here, I enjoy running and would love to do a few more marathons but only if my times are going to improve, anyone any suggestions on what changes I could make to help me achieve that?
Is it possible that too much training just doesn't suit me or should more miles/days running always give better results/times?
Both Marathons I've run this year my breathing has been comfortable the whole way around and my head clear, it's just my legs are feeling shot.
I've ran more miles this year and more days than any other year but I'm going backwards.

El Caballo

First thing I'd do if I was in your shoes would be to get a full check up and bloods done. Not just for iron but everything like thyroid, testosterone and whatever else they test for. This is just to clear everything medically first, then it may be time to look at your training. You've had a fairly large regression in times despite training so that would be my first concern.

kerrylad1

ooter wrote: »

I'd appreciate any pearls of wisdom from the good people on here, basically I don't feel my last few marathon times are reflecting the training I'm doing and it's really frustrating.
First half of this year I followed the hansons advanced plan for my spring Marathon (6 days a week) and honestly worked my arse off, genuinely thought I was in pb shape (3:14) but I ended up almost 30 mins slower than that.
Ditched hansons for DCM and went back to the plan that got me my PB, the P&D 55 mile (5 days a week) plan. For the first few weeks I had a PB in mind but as the weeks went on I was changing to sub 3:20, sub 3:25 and eventually settled on 3:30, genuinely thought I was in 3:30 shape. I ran the Dublin HM in 1:40 a few weeks ago but didn't go full tilt if I'm being honest so thought 3:30 for the full was doable.
Stuck on the tail of the 3:30 pacers yesterday but by half way I knew it wasn't to be, lost interest after that if I'm being honest and came home a few mins under 4 hours.
Can't get my head around how my times can be so different having followed the same plan but it is what it is.
I've trained only 3 days a week for a marathon in the past and ran a faster time than I did yesterday. I've trained 4 days a week in the past and ran sub 3:30.
Suppose I'm wondering where to go from here, I enjoy running and would love to do a few more marathons but only if my times are going to improve, anyone any suggestions on what changes I could make to help me achieve that?
Is it possible that too much training just doesn't suit me or should more miles/days running always give better results/times?
Both Marathons I've run this year my breathing has been comfortable the whole way around and my head clear, it's just my legs are feeling shot.
I've ran more miles this year and more days than any other year but I'm going backwards.

A mate of my dad's told me.you are training for a marathon,just keep doing lots of m.p miles,They had no internet back in early 80,s to follow,so this is what he used to do.I took his advice and it's payed off.I think at our level,lots of easy miles,and a long m.p run every 2nd week does the trick.I tried the p&d plan a few years ago,going for 3:15,blew up and came home in 3:21.Stick with it,you will find what works for you.Everyone has bad days.I had a rotten day in Dublin last year,bye the way.

RuMan

Would you consider stepping away from the marathon for a while ?
It doesn't seem like ur enjoying them currently.

Stick to shorter distances and see if you can improve times there, maybe try X country. Marathon training can be all consuming and while its each to their own doing 2 a year would destroy the magic for me. Are you in a club or just training by urself ?

ooter

RuMan wrote: »

Would you consider stepping away from the marathon for a while ?
It doesn't seem like ur enjoying them currently.

Stick to shorter distances and see if you can improve times there, maybe try X country. Marathon training can be all consuming and while its each to their own doing 2 a year would destroy the magic for me. Are you in a club or just training by urself ?

Yeah I do a bit of cross country/bhaa, I definitely need to work on my shorter distances because those times have suffered over the last few years.
Current 5k time would be around 2 mins off my PB,
Current 10k time would be around 4 mins off,
Current HM would be around 10 mins off.
I'd hate to lose the base I've built this year and was planning on doing a spring Marathon but maybe changing focus for the next 6 months might be the way to go, jump back in to DCM mode next may/June.
Not in a club, I've always trained by myself. I prefer to get my midweek runs in as soon as I get in from work at 5pm, the later club start (7pm?) just doesn't suit me and Saturday mornings don't suit me either.
Thanks for the replies lads.

adrian522

No need to lose your base, keep mileage at a moderately high level and train for a target race over a shorter distance, then look to go into a marathon plan in the summer.

kaymin

Sounds like you are over training. You need to listen to your body. Training 6 days a week is tough on the body and doesn't suit everyone. Rest is very important.

As long as you get one long run and one interval session in per week then I'd be reasonably relaxed about your other runs - run another medium run or another interval session per week if you feel up to it but don't force it. If you don't feel up to it then keep it easy running.

Personally I've struggled with structured training programmes and tend to run better after following an unstructured programme as I tend to listen to my body more and run according to how I feel.

Ceepo

ooter wrote: »

I'd appreciate any pearls of wisdom from the good people on here, basically I don't feel my last few marathon times are reflecting the training I'm doing and it's really frustrating.
First half of this year I followed the hansons advanced plan for my spring Marathon (6 days a week) and honestly worked my arse off, genuinely thought I was in pb shape (3:14) but I ended up almost 30 mins slower than that.
Ditched hansons for DCM and went back to the plan that got me my PB, the P&D 55 mile (5 days a week) plan. For the first few weeks I had a PB in mind but as the weeks went on I was changing to sub 3:20, sub 3:25 and eventually settled on 3:30, genuinely thought I was in 3:30 shape. I ran the Dublin HM in 1:40 a few weeks ago but didn't go full tilt if I'm being honest so thought 3:30 for the full was doable.
Stuck on the tail of the 3:30 pacers yesterday but by half way I knew it wasn't to be, lost interest after that if I'm being honest and came home a few mins under 4 hours.
Can't get my head around how my times can be so different having followed the same plan but it is what it is.
I've trained only 3 days a week for a marathon in the past and ran a faster time than I did yesterday. I've trained 4 days a week in the past and ran sub 3:30.
Suppose I'm wondering where to go from here, I enjoy running and would love to do a few more marathons but only if my times are going to improve, anyone any suggestions on what changes I could make to help me achieve that?
Is it possible that too much training just doesn't suit me or should more miles/days running always give better results/times?
Both Marathons I've run this year my breathing has been comfortable the whole way around and my head clear, it's just my legs are feeling shot.
I've ran more miles this year and more days than any other year but I'm going backwards.

You should consider sitting down and having a chat with a coach.
They might be able to give you a subjective view of your training, and suggest how you might be able to make improvements.
Training plans from th internet and/or a book are fine but don't take a lot of things into consideration such as work, sleep etc.

It's not always about logging in more miles but more about getting the balance right

RacoonQueen

Hard to tell based on information given here tbh.
Would need to see what times you're doing in training, what your HRs are (if you train by HR, if you don't I'd recommend it).
Did you do any other build up races besides the HM? What times did you do in them? What brought you to pick your goal time for Dublin this year - you seemed to keep changing it, what was this constant change based on?

ooter

Did the race series, 5 mile was 34 mins, 10k was 42 mins, 10 mile was 1 hr 15 and the half was 1 hr 40. I suppose as the weeks went on I was struggling to hold the marathon pace I thought I was capable of in my long runs so that's why I readjusted a few times.
Pretty much all of my intervals were done at 20 min 5k pace, a few at 21 min pace but certainly no slower.

Swashbuckler

What pace were your long runs at in training?

average_runner

For me there is a few things here:
1. Get the bloods checked.
2. Have kids come into your life lately?
3. Are you stressed over something?
4. Is your training cycle too long? May be p&d 12 week one be better.
5. Are you mentally tired?
6. Do you take a month off from running each year to recharge or do you just start another training cycle?
7. Are you time focus instead of enjoying the running? This is definitely one.

I wouldn't go straight into cross country, instead take time off from now till st Stephens day. Relax and recharge and look back at things.

Then aim for 5k to 10k for the first 6 months and see how you feel. Find the enjoyment again and forget the times.

RacoonQueen

ooter wrote: »

Did the race series, 5 mile was 34 mins, 10k was 42 mins, 10 mile was 1 hr 15 and the half was 1 hr 40. I suppose as the weeks went on I was struggling to hold the marathon pace I thought I was capable of in my long runs so that's why I readjusted a few times.
Pretty much all of my intervals were done at 20 min 5k pace, a few at 21 min pace but certainly no slower.

I'm not familiar with the training plan you did. Based off the above race times though, I would say 3:30 would have been a tight goal for you.

Does Hanson's plan tell you how to decide on your training paces?

Getting bloods done is never a bad idea. I suspect you need to overhaul your training as a whole..and if really struggling find a way to fit training with a club in even for a few months. I train as soon as I get home too and I'm washed and fed by the time my club would be just starting now. But 100% if I was struggling I'd be down running with them.

average_runners questions there are good ones to piece things together. No idea what this 'time off' malarky he is talking about is though!

ooter

average_runner wrote: »

For me there is a few things here:
1. Get the bloods checked.
2. Have kids come into your life lately?
3. Are you stressed over something?
4. Is your training cycle too long? May be p&d 12 week one be better.
5. Are you mentally tired?
6. Do you take a month off from running each year to recharge or do you just start another training cycle?
7. Are you time focus instead of enjoying the running? This is definitely one.

I wouldn't go straight into cross country, instead take time off from now till st Stephens day. Relax and recharge and look back at things.

Then aim for 5k to 10k for the first 6 months and see how you feel. Find the enjoyment again and forget the times.

2. Definitely not.
3. Certainly don't feel stressed, I've started doing meditation this year and probably feel more relaxed than ever.
4. Could be, I've only ever followed 18 week plans.
5. Again I don't think so, meditation has helped a lot with this too.
6. After my spring Marathon I took a week off and then for the next 3 weeks all I did was 3 x 5 mile runs a week fairly easy and then started P&D for Dublin, the only fast run I did all that month was the Irish runner 5 mile.
Doing nothing this week, might go out for a short/slow run next Sunday. Not sure if I'd be able to do nothing for the next 2 months, I'd have to get out and do a bit.
7. Yeah I probably am, I probably follow these plans too literally.

Swashbuckler wrote: »

What pace were your long runs at in training?

Week 5 14 miles w 10 @ 7:40 pace,
Week 6 18 miles @ 9:00 pace,
Week 9 15 miles w 10 @ 7:30 pace,
Week 10 14 miles @ 9:20 pace,
Week 11 20 miles @ 9:00 pace,
Week 12 17 miles @ 8:23 pace,
Week 14 17 miles @ 8:44 pace,
Week 15 20 miles @ 9:23 pace.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Does Hanson's plan tell you how to decide on your training paces?

There's a pace equivalency chart and you work out your training paces from that. I based my paces off a recent 5 mile race (33:50) and pretty much nailed all the paces required through the plan. Sub 3:15 was probably a bit optimistic, maybe even 3:20 but there's no way I should've ran 3:40+.

average_runner

ooter wrote: »

2. Definitely not.
3. Certainly don't feel stressed, I've started doing meditation this year and probably feel more relaxed than ever.
4. Could be, I've only ever followed 18 week plans.
5. Again I don't think so, meditation has helped a lot with this too.
6. After my spring Marathon I took a week off and then for the next 3 weeks all I did was 3 x 5 mile runs a week fairly easy and then started P&D for Dublin, the only fast run I did all that month was the Irish runner 5 mile.
Doing nothing this week, might go out for a short/slow run next Sunday. Not sure if I'd be able to do nothing for the next 2 months, I'd have to get out and do a bit.
7. Yeah I probably am, I probably follow these plans too literally.

Week 5 14 miles w 10 @ 7:40 pace,
Week 6 18 miles @ 9:00 pace,
Week 9 15 miles w 10 @ 7:30 pace,
Week 10 14 miles @ 9:20 pace,
Week 11 20 miles @ 9:00 pace,
Week 12 17 miles @ 8:23 pace,
Week 14 17 miles @ 8:44 pace,
Week 15 20 miles @ 9:23 pace.

There's a pace equivalency chart and you work out your training paces from that. I based my paces off a recent 5 mile race (33:50) and pretty much nailed all the paces required through the plan. Sub 3:15 was probably a bit optimistic, maybe even 3:20 but there's no way I should've ran 3:40+.

To be honest, my pb for 5 miles is 33:08, but i wouldn't be able to hit 3:15. Not everything can be translated into another distance sadly. We have strengths in different areas of running.

ooter

Would anyone have any recommendations on where in Dublin to get my bloods done?

Van.Bosch

ooter wrote: »

Would anyone have any recommendations on where in Dublin to get my bloods done?

I use my GP in the Hanover medical centre near grand Canal and find them excellent.

cullenswood

ooter wrote: »

Would anyone have any recommendations on where in Dublin to get my bloods done?

Any doctor should be happy take your bloods for you, and get them checked over.

average_runner

ooter wrote: »

Would anyone have any recommendations on where in Dublin to get my bloods done?

Don't get stressed or worried when waiting for the results.

ThePiedPiper

I know lots of people will say long slow runs should be slow, but in my experience, running the long runs more than a minute per mile off target pace is going to leave you undercooked. When looking at an aggressive time target, I'd work towards running 14 miles of a 20niler at MP.

I was where you are a for a couple of years there, was flogging a dead horse and getting nowhere near PB shape. I stepped back a bit, and mentally and physically, feel completely refreshed. Focusing on times can be mentally tiring. There's no one right answer here, but hopefully, given time, you'll get your mojo back.

ooter

ThePiedPiper wrote: »

When looking at an aggressive time target, I'd work towards running 14 miles of a 20niler at MP.

Thanks TPP, how many of those 20 milers would you think is required when preparing for a marathon?

Chivito550

Get a coach. There's a reason why most of the best athletes have coaches. Self-coaching is a very difficult art. Many experienced athletes can't manage it, so imagine how hard it would be for a relative novice.

ThePiedPiper

ooter wrote: »

Thanks TPP, how many of those 20 milers would you think is required when preparing for a marathon?

In my better structured training cycles, I'd have done maybe 4 or 5 20 mile runs, increasing the MP miles from about 4, 7, 10, 14. I've never missed a target when I managed those sessions. But, as said above, everyone is different, and what works for one might not work for another

VO2Max

Take some time off from marathon racing and focus on getting faster on shorter races. Keep a good base doing this if the body can handle the milage, in a year or so maybe look at marathon training again. If possible join a club ideally with a good coach or with good experienced runners or get a private coach if the club isn't working. Look at your diet too it plays a massive roll.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Get a coach. There's a reason why most of the best athletes have coaches. Self-coaching is a very difficult art. Many experienced athletes can't manage it, so imagine how hard it would be for a relative novice.

Are we talking one on one coaching or just a general coach ?

What's the cost of this? More curious than anything else.

RacoonQueen

average_runner wrote: »

Are we talking one on one coaching or just a general coach ?

What's the cost of this? More curious than anything else.

Depends on the coach. Some don't charge, some do. I got one when I was losing the love and couldn't get to club sessions. Pain 80 a month, I'm sure I could have got one from a pool of people I know, cheaper or free but I was happy with what I went with. 'Coach' myself now but I wouldn't be in a position to be able to do that properly if it wasn't for the work I did with him.

I don't think being coached is for everyone. I'm close to uncoachable would be hard to find someone who really works for me and I just got frustrated myself at the time with not always being able to follow the plan for various reasons.

ooter

VO2Max wrote: »

Take some time off from marathon racing and focus on getting faster on shorter races. Keep a good base doing this if the body can handle the milage, in a year or so maybe look at marathon training again. If possible join a club ideally with a good coach or with good experienced runners or get a private coach if the club isn't working. Look at your diet too it plays a massive roll.

Thanks V, I definitely need to work on my shorter distances, what sort of weekly mileage would be considered a good base?

average_runner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Depends on the coach. Some don't charge, some do. I got one when I was losing the love and couldn't get to club sessions. Pain 80 a month, I'm sure I could have got one from a pool of people I know, cheaper or free but I was happy with what I went with. 'Coach' myself now but I wouldn't be in a position to be able to do that properly if it wasn't for the work I did with him.

I don't think being coached is for everyone. I'm close to uncoachable would be hard to find someone who really works for me and I just got frustrated myself at the time with not always being able to follow the plan for various reasons.

Where do you go to find a coach?

VO2Max

ooter wrote: »

Thanks V, I definitely need to work on my shorter distances, what sort of weekly mileage would be considered a good base?

Without known much about you it will depend on your running history, injuries, average weekly milage over that past few years, etc as everyone is different. You were following a 55mile or nearly 90 km plan so I would aim to reach that kind of milage consistently in the long term (years not months) but it's going to take time to build up to that while avoiding injury.

RacoonQueen

average_runner wrote: »

Where do you go to find a coach?

I used Robert Denmead. Heard good things and had a website. I wouldn't have known how otherwise.
I know others have simply approached other runners they know.

Emmet Dunleavy also has a website
http://www.perfectpacing.com/

Others, some of who are regular posters on here and have other full time jobs mostly don't so probably harder to link up with (likes of ecoli and TRR for example who have coached boardsies).
Jackyback coaches triathlon and running - https://ascentsportscoaching.com/

edit: I would suspect it is easier to find the right coach for you through your peers and approaching coaches whose approach to running suits you. Logging on here has probably landed a few people with coaches as its a good way to see how someone approaches their own training.

Murph_D

When you ran 3:40 instead of a planned 3:15-20, what were your splits? Did you have a big fade at the end or did you suffer all the way through? If it's a big fade you're probably looking at an endurance issue, which could be a result of low mileage or training at inappropriate paces. There's also the mental side, and all sorts of other issues around hydration and nutrition (although nutrition is less an issue for most of us mid-packers as long as you're reasonable). There's also conditioning, race strategy, etc. P&D, Hanson etc talk a lot about this side but many people just get hold of the running schedule and think that's enough. It isn't. How closely did you study the books (as that's an important element for those of us who are self-coached)?