Disillusioned

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

2. Have kids come into your life lately?

The time my kids came into the world I was never fitter!

ooter

Murph_D wrote: »

When you ran 3:40 instead of a planned 3:15-20, what were your splits? Did you have a big fade at the end or did you suffer all the way through?

I would say I suffered the whole way through but moreso as the race went on. I found my legs just didn't recover during taper and even while doing a light jog the day before the race I knew something was very wrong so decided to have a go at 3:30 instead. Splits were 48 mins for 10k, 1:44 for half way, 2:45 for 20m and 3:43 finish.
Splits for last Sunday were similar for the first half but even worse for the 2nd half but I felt i tapered better and felt much better before the race, legs didn't feel tired and I honestly thought 3:30 was on.
I read both books and feel I carried out the plans as prescribed, I probably put the bad performance following hansons down mainly to the 16 mile longest run and probably trained too hard but I'm at a loss as to why I ran so poorly following P&D.

Murph_D

ooter wrote: »

I would say I suffered the whole way through but moreso as the race went on. I found my legs just didn't recover during taper and even while doing a light jog the day before the race I knew something was very wrong so decided to have a go at 3:30 instead. Splits were 48 mins for 10k, 1:44 for half way, 2:45 for 20m and 3:43 finish.
Splits for last Sunday were similar for the first half but even worse for the 2nd half but I felt i tapered better and felt much better before the race, legs didn't feel tired and I honestly thought 3:30 was on.
I read both books and feel I carried out the plans as prescribed, I probably put the bad performance following hansons down mainly to the 16 mile longest run and probably trained too hard but I'm at a loss as to why I ran so poorly following P&D.

Interesting. Why do you put the performance down to the 16m longest run, as a matter of interest?

I ask because I have had the opposite experience, big PBs at HM and M using Hanson plans for first time.

The splits you've posted suggest your problems are in the second half, and that you've tended to go out a little fast.

ooter

Murph_D wrote: »

Interesting. Why do you put the performance down to the 16m longest run, as a matter of interest?

I ask because I have had the opposite experience, big PBs at HM and M using Hanson plans for first time.

The splits you've posted suggest your problems are in the second half, and that you've tended to go out a little fast.

I suppose it was the only thing I could pin such a bad performance on, I had always run up to 20 mile long runs in all my other Marathons.
Loads of people seem to have success with hansons, I'm not knocking the plan, just didn't work for me.
That would've been my opinion up to last weekend but I'm not so sure now following an even worse result using a plan I had great results with in the past. I'm obviously not as fast over the shorter distances now as I was then but a 40 minutes difference in marathon times is baffling.

El Caballo

I think the issue here is that a guy who used to run 1:26/7 for the half and 3:14 for the marathon can't break 1:40 or 3:30 anymore despite never dropping training substantially in that time. As a guy whose Pb's are fairly similar, I could probably run those times after a year off which tells me something is seriously wrong and that more volume or intensity may not be the way to go, this seems a lot more significant than a lack of training based endurance. Either he is mentally/physically overcooking it and hasn't recovered or something is medically off.

Adding more mileage or increasing the intensity is not something I'd recommend here, dropping mileage and intensity would probably be a better option right now as the results are going downhill as it is so there should not be much to lose but the recovery might help.

El Caballo

What is your diet like ooter? How many meals a day are you eating and calories are you taking in? Has your weight changed much since you ran 3:14? Marathon training takes up a lot of energy, if you aren't getting enough in, you will have dead legs and not recover properly.

Murph_D

Ah, I missed the 3:14 previous PB.

OP, how long ago was that?

What I DO see is a runner choosing a marathon target based on times identical to my own at 10k and 5m, but choosing 3:15 instead of 3:20 (a big difference in my book). The struggle was therefore maybe not unusual as it was too ambitious, possibly based on a former PB that is no longer realistic?

Still a lot of unknown info here (for me).

ooter

Pb was in 2014.
I would consider my diet to be very good to be honest, I eat mostly plant based (fresh fruit and veg and steamed veg) and loads of healthy grains (buckwheat/quinoa etc) but I'd also have eggs at least once a week, fish maybe once a week and other meats occasionally.
Very little dairy apart from the odd bit of cheese, I'd eat more sheep/goats cheese than dairy cheese. I'd eat 4/5 times a day. Very little processed foods, I prepare most of my own meals.
When I ran my PB i would've been 100% plant based diet.
Never really one for keeping tabs on my weight but I'd say I'm no more that 7lbs heavier now than I was for my PB if even that.

El Caballo

ooter wrote: »

Pb was in 2014.
I would consider my diet to be very good to be honest, I eat mostly plant based (fresh fruit and veg and steamed veg) and loads of healthy grains (buckwheat/quinoa etc) but I'd also have eggs at least once a week, fish maybe once a week and other meats occasionally.
Very little dairy apart from the odd bit of cheese, I'd eat more sheep/goats cheese than dairy cheese.
When I ran my PB i would've been 100% plant based diet.
Never really one for keeping tabs on my weight but I'd say I'm no more that 7lbs heavier now than I was for my PB if even that.

If you get the bloods done, make sure to ask for a B12 test as well. it doesn't come with routine bloods but could be important as someone who eats a plant based diet. B12 is needed to absorb iron so even if you are getting enough iron from your diet, it is also entirely possible that you could still become anaemic due to a B12 deficiency.

As you are probably aware too, it's hard to get in a lot of calories from a plant based diet and plant based-protein is not as rich as animal based which means you have to eat more to get the same effects. Someone doing the training you do would need to be consuming in excess of 3000 calories a day to perform well. Might be something to keep an eye on just to see as well.

ooter

Yeah I have b12 drops in my fridge, probably don't take them as often as I should though.

Murph_D

ooter wrote: »

Pb was in 2014.

What about 2015-2016? What kind of running/performances - was there a sudden drop off or a gradual decline to the disappointing 2017 spring/autumn marathons?

Swashbuckler

Was just going ask what Murph asked. Seems like the P&D worked well for you previously but what was the previous years training like prior to that pb? And same for this year. What was this year's p&d off the back of?

Given the legs were the problem and not the lungs (assuming it's not diet related) you would think it's endurance related. Have you a good years running behind you before starting the most recent plan?

Your long runs don't look too fast so that can be ruled out.

ooter

Murph_D wrote: »

What about 2015-2016? What kind of running/performances - was there a sudden drop off or a gradual decline to the disappointing 2017 spring/autumn marathons?

Picked up a shin injury in the build up to Dublin 2015 that ruled me out, by the time that cleared up enough to get back on the road London was on the horizon, minded myself all through that build up and only trained 3 days a week cos I didn't want the injury to come back and end up missing out, think I ran 3:50 @ London but went out from the start @ 9 mins per mile so it was to be expected. Injured again in the build up to Dublin last year and only got 8 weeks (4 days a week) decent training in, trotted around in 4:10.
The last 12 months I've had no injury problems and have been training solid 5/6 days a week.

Murph_D

Well I think you've just revealed something there.

You don't say how much running you missed but assumably quite a bit, followed than by a three-day regime for London 2016 then further injury. Under those circumstances, I think many of us would have struggled with a 2017 spring and then autumn marathon schedule.

You haven't revealed age, but I believe you have mentioned elsewhere that you 'are not getting any younger', which may also be a factor. Those of us who are a little older recover more slowly, and can find it harder to get back to where we were after some time off. Not saying you are in that category - you are coy with the details - but if so, that might also apply.

ooter

Murph_D wrote: »

Well I think you've just revealed something there.

You don't say how much running you missed but assumably quite a bit, followed than by a three-day regime for London 2016 then further injury. Under those circumstances, I think many of us would have struggled with a 2017 spring and then autumn marathon schedule.

I'd say I missed 4 weeks tops with the shin injury but it came 3/4 weeks out from the dublin marathon so just terrible timing. After London I missed about 7 weeks between July and August.
I'm 44 by the way, probably should've mentioned that earlier.

Murph_D

Well that rules age out as a factor too.

ger664

Average_runners point 6. Take a month off no running bug the the other half for a few weeks in the evening. Get the blood work done as well just to rule out anything medical.

RacoonQueen

ger664 wrote: »

Take a month off no running.

This sounds like hell.

average_runner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

This sounds like hell.

Its tough but its amazing what it can do for you. You can do some swimming or cycling etc, but no intensity.

But for you, you have to stop cycling, swimming and running, so maybe some draughts

Clearlier

Hey ooter, others have said this but it may have gotten lost amongst the training advice.  While your training probably isn't optimal, it sounds pretty reasonable and it doesn't come close to explaining the drop off in performance.  You have to go to great lengths to blame your training for this and it's just not a likely explanation.

I can't recommend one but I'd get to a good GP and while there's a good chance that you will turn out to have something that readily explains this via a blood test I'd be expecting a wider examination of  your health than just blood tests.

Hope you get an answer that gives you a quick and easy solution.

squinn2912

Hi there. I read the opening few comments and took a quick glance at the rest I hope I don't repeat advice but it's no bad thing getting plenty of good advice!
Some of the folks on here have given you some excellent tips.
Firstly it's good news that the legs are going and not dizziness or stomach cramps.
You're a really good runner and need to appreciate yourself more. I'm all about goal time too but if you're coming in under 4 you're doing well.
Back to the legs. If the spring leaves them I think that is due to overtraining. Relax. I'd go back to the 5 days and get one quality speed session and the rest easy running. In my training I very rarely cross 50 miles because my lifestyle just won't allow it healthily.
A short break might help but a month suggested is long for me.
It sounds like medically you're fine but can't be too careful get talking to the doc.
Try implementing rest weeks into training where you cut intensity and distance maybe every 4-5th week in a16-18 programme.
Have a think about hydration, nutrition and sleep. Work out some goals on that.
I'm a little younger so I don't know what it feels like to be 44 but I have a friend at 43 who just walloped his pb and stormed home in 2:48 - he's training harder and better than ever and the best advice he gave me is 1. Back yourself and 2. If you feel under pressure in training - back off!
Hope that's a little help for you.

ooter

Thanks squinn.
Just on hydration, I drink tonnes of water every day so I don't think that's an issue, unless it's a hot/warm day I could go 16/18/20 miles on a weekend long run on empty and with no water handy enough.

squinn2912

ooter wrote: »

Thanks squinn.
Just on hydration, I drink tonnes of water every day so I don't think that's an issue, unless it's a hot/warm day I could go 16/18/20 miles on a weekend long run on empty and with no water handy enough.

No probs just my own rant of thoughts! Hmm if I don't get 2 litres in the working day I can feel it I like 3-4 per day. The longest I'd go is 12-14 easy without water but I'd know all about it.
Something is causing a dip for you (certainly not a collapse) and rather than one major thing my haunch is that it's a combination of issues. To get your goals you need to cover so much and in the marathon one little domino falls and the whole thing can come down around you.
In 2015 I was going for sub3 and missed out once through injury then 3:16. I regrouped, got a coach online and in spring 2016 3:45 - walking at 11 mile point. What helped me was using the frustration to get mentally strong and then making a very specific programme to follow. I ran 35-45 miles per week with 1 interval session, 1 tempo 25 seconds quicker than mp and the long run. Everything else was steady or slow recovery. I wrote down everything and measured all I could think of - sleep, diet, water, juice, alcohol and I lined up last year at DCM with zero doubt and hit the 2:58.
I'm not blowing about my own results I'm outlining how I dealt with my own disillusionment. I'd advise you to sit for an hour with a pen and paper and make some changes, write out the plan that you feel will work and then get after it. Above all else get into a positive frame of mind and allow that to help fuel you.

rooneyjm

ooter wrote: »

I read both books and feel I carried out the plans as prescribed, I probably put the bad performance following hansons down mainly to the 16 mile longest run and probably trained too hard but I'm at a loss as to why I ran so poorly following P&D.

I just used the H. Method and pb’ed by 13mins, 3hrs10. I was dubious about the 16 mile long runs but I felt really strong in the second half. The one thing I would say about it, I thought the last two weeks were too heavy and I cut them back.

Your issues could be simply not tapered enough. You said you stuck to the plan to the letter and maybe 90k the week before might be too much. Similarly I cut the run on the Friday and Saturday before Marathon day. Look back to your pb year if you have the data and see what your final too weeks looked like.

I wouldn’t read anything into finishing 3.40 going for a pb of 3.14, when it goes wrong it can go badly wrong. If you have the heart rate data that can help paint a picture. If it’s elevated from the start then something’s up. W. R.T weight, from reading several articles you could be losing 4sec per kg per mile, so for 7 pounds/3kgs that’s 12sec per mile ball park, enough to push you over the edge?

On the other hand it could be more serious ie your Iron levels. When you pb’ed your level could have been good and they have slowly depleted training cycle after training cycle. You’ve made the decision not to eat red meat, just make sure you are getting that goodness elsewhere.

ooter

rooneyjm wrote: »

I wouldn’t read anything into finishing 3.40 going for a pb of 3.14, when it goes wrong it can go badly wrong.

The thing is, I wasn't going for 3:14 on the day, I knew by my legs something was wrong so I decided the night before to play it safe and go for 3:30.
When I got my pb I trained for and was chasing sub 3 hour, went for it and didn't regret it, faded badly in the second half. P&D 55 clearly wasn't enough but there was only one way of finding that out.

RacoonQueen

ooter wrote: »

The thing is, I wasn't going for 3:14 on the day, I knew by my legs something was wrong so I decided the night before to play it safe and go for 3:30.
When I got my pb I trained for and was chasing sub 3 hour, went for it and didn't regret it, faded badly in the second half. P&D 55 clearly wasn't enough but there was only one way of finding that out.

It sounds like you set very aggressive and (possibly) unachievable targets, to be blunt. I mean thats cool, I respect people who set aggressive targets its better than setting one that is piss easy and we should have confidence in our ability, but, I think you need to reassess how you decide on what your goal marathon time is. Something tough, but, achievable with hard work and dedication (and everything going to plan in the lead up).

demfad

ooter wrote: »

Yeah I do a bit of cross country/bhaa, I definitely need to work on my shorter distances because those times have suffered over the last few years.
Current 5k time would be around 2 mins off my PB,
Current 10k time would be around 4 mins off,
Current HM would be around 10 mins off.
I'd hate to lose the base I've built this year and was planning on doing a spring Marathon but maybe changing focus for the next 6 months might be the way to go, jump back in to DCM mode next may/June.
Not in a club, I've always trained by myself. I prefer to get my midweek runs in as soon as I get in from work at 5pm, the later club start (7pm?) just doesn't suit me and Saturday mornings don't suit me either.
Thanks for the replies lads.

You should probably be not far off PB shape in these distances to be in good marathon shape. You will get strong from the marathon run itself, so if you plan to go short again you would probably run a decent 10k-HM race 4-5 weeks after the marathon itself. Just recover properly (actively or however your schedule dictates) do a session or two to get the legs turning over.

That race (with the marathon training behind it), can be used as a base to build more faster training off of.

Be patient, do the faster sessions controlled relaxed and build the mileage up again. Let the times come down, don't force it with big sessions.
When you have the speed back you can extend the endurance to try and translate it into a decent marathon again.

ooter

Went to my GP and got a letter for the hospital for a blood test but they can't fit me in till December, anyone know where I could get it done privately?

jaggiebunnet

ooter wrote: »

Went to my GP and got a letter for the hospital for a blood test but they can't fit me in till December, anyone know where I could get it done privately?

Why didn't the GP do it?

ooter

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Why didn't the GP do it?

Don't know, told him I was looking to get a blood test done and wasn't sure what way it worked, he asked me why I was looking to get it done and when I told him he gave me a letter for the hospital. He said he should have the results 2 weeks after the test so that'll bring me up to just before Xmas.
I'm not waiting that long.