Rail strikes...again

pjohnson

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They already do.

They do their current work and get their current pay. They want MORE pay for their current work.

Hitman3000

pjohnson wrote:

If you want more pay you should do more work? How is this so confusing?

Only so many hours in the working day. There comes a point you cannot physically do anymore. You realise this right?

Hitman3000

pjohnson wrote:

They do their current work and get their current pay. They want MORE pay for their current work.

It's called wage inflation. I work in the private sector
Doing the same work load for the last 6 years. Pay has increased year on year.

Hilly Bill

pjohnson wrote: »

They do their current work and get their current pay. They want MORE pay for their current work.

The current work is more work than what they were doing since the last pay rise

pjohnson

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It's called wage inflation. I work in the private sector
Doing the same work load for the last 6 years. Pay has increased year on year.

Fair play. Maybe this is an industry these drivers should look into doing. Is your company hanging on the verge of insolvency?

Riva10

pjohnson wrote: »

If you want more pay you should do more work? How is this so confusing?

Like our politicians and judges you mean?

Riva10

pjohnson wrote: »

Fair play. Maybe this is an industry these drivers should look into doing. Is your company hanging on the verge of insolvency?

When our country was in this position our politicians still kept getting their exorbitant pay and expenses. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

end of the road

pjohnson wrote: »

They do their current work and get their current pay. They want MORE pay for their current work.

the work load has increased hugely since 10 years ago when they last had a pay rise.

Hitman3000

pjohnson wrote:

Fair play. Maybe this is an industry these drivers should look into doing. Is your company hanging on the verge of insolvency?

Why are you just focusing on drivers? My company doesn't have a PSO or a requirement to provide a free service to thousands of non paying customers. Apple's and oranges.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

the work load has increased hugely since 10 years ago when they last had a pay rise.

No it hasn't.

stateofflux

pjohnson wrote: »

Fair play. Maybe this is an industry these drivers should look into doing. Is your company hanging on the verge of insolvency?

Correct me if im wrong but are most state owned or partially state owned transport companies not loss making by their very nature?

Brendan Bendar

end of the road wrote: »

the work load has increased hugely since 10 years ago when they last had a pay rise.

Nah, it has not.

end of the road

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nah, it has not.

Working class heroes wrote: »

No it hasn't.

the work load has increased since 10 years ago when the staff had their last pay rise.

stateofflux wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but are most state owned or partially state owned transport companies not loss making by their very nature?

correct. they are by design loss making.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

the work load has increased since 10 years ago when the staff had their last pay rise. .

No, the work load has not increased.

end of the road wrote: »

. they are by design loss making.

Not correct.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

No, the work load has not increased.

yes, the workload has increased.

prinzeugen

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nah, it has not.

Yes it has. Drivers have more responsibility now as most trains are DOO and with a newer fleet, fault finding is more complicated.

What a driver might be able to sort with a spanner in the middle of nowhere now needs a laptop and a degree to fix.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

yes, the workload has increased.

Nope, it has not.

ThunbergsAreGo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Yes it has. Drivers have more responsibility now as most trains are DOO and with a newer fleet, fault finding is more complicated.

What a driver might be able to sort with a spanner in the middle of nowhere now needs a laptop and a degree to fix.

Wouldn't that mean they do less work as someone else does it?

Anyone have a list of these increased duties

arleitiss

So how much drivers get paid actually?

homerjay2005

arleitiss wrote: »

So how much drivers get paid actually?

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"


seriously OTT money for unskilled jobs.

Working class heroes

arleitiss wrote: »

So how much drivers get paid actually?

Too much.

Hitman3000

homerjay2005 wrote:

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"

It's not just the drivers striking.

weldoninhio

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It's called wage inflation. I work in the private sector
Doing the same work load for the last 6 years. Pay has increased year on year.

That almost sounds like a yearly incremental increase. Who else gets those, but refuses to call them pay rises?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Zebra3

homerjay2005 wrote: »

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"


seriously OTT money for unskilled jobs.

Does that include a shift allowance for working outside Mon-Fri regular hours?

nice_guy80

homerjay2005 wrote: »

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"


seriously OTT money for unskilled jobs.

so they get paid €13,000 more than a teacher starting out?
and a higher end salary than a teacher

with no long term or short term plans, testing, correcting, making resources, dealing with children, dealing with parents.
where do I sign up

suicide_circus

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so they get paid €13,000 more than a teacher starting out?
and a higher end salary than a teacher

with no long term or short term plans, testing, correcting, making resources, dealing with children, dealing with parents.
where do I sign up

Yes but unlike teachers they have to work all year round.

Beta Ray Bill

homerjay2005 wrote: »

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"


seriously OTT money for unskilled jobs.

What you have to do:
Use leaver to Stop, Use leaver to Go, Press button to Open Doors, Press button to Close Doors.

What you need to know:
How leavers work, How Buttons works, Understand the difference between Green, Amber and Red signals.

Simple job.

We don't need heavy rail up and down the length and breadth country, we're a small little Island on the edge of Europe with a population of less than 5 millions most of which own or have access to cars/local bus service!

weldoninhio

grahambo wrote: »

What you have to do:
Use leaver to Stop, Use leaver to Go, Press button to Open Doors, Press button to Close Doors.

What you need to know:
How leavers work, How Buttons works, Understand the difference between Green, Amber and Red signals.

Simple job.

We don't need heavy rail up and down the length and breadth country, we're a small little Island on the edge of Europe with a population of less than 5 millions most of which own or have access to cars/local bus service!

100% agree. There was a decent opinion piece in the Herald last night by Dan White. Some of the figures were shocking! Almost 50% of Irish Rails revenue comes from the government. It has an annual wage bill of E249m. Of all transport trips, rail is 1 in 50. Even more shockingly, this also includes LUAS. We have absolutely no need for an Intercity rail service any longer.

Irish rail should be disbanded. Keep and improve the DART and certain commuter services and scrap the rest. Buses are just as quick as trains in a lot of cases now anyway and an awful lot more reliable.

murpho999

weldoninhio wrote: »

100% agree. There was a decent opinion piece in the Herald last night by Dan White. Some of the figures were shocking! Almost 50% of Irish Rails revenue comes from the government. It has an annual wage bill of E249m. Of all transport trips, rail is 1 in 50. Even more shockingly, this also includes LUAS. We have absolutely no need for an Intercity rail service any longer.

Irish rail should be disbanded. Keep and improve the DART and certain commuter services and scrap the rest. Buses are just as quick as trains in a lot of cases now anyway and an awful lot more reliable.

What total and utter rubbish.

Thousands of people use the trains weekly and intercities are full at weekends.

Also, not everybody has a car or wants to buy one.

It's investment the train network needs to improve journey times and routes. This will encourage more people on the trains.

The population argument is rubbish too. Look at countries like Denmark, smaller population than Ireland and it has an excellent train service.

weldoninhio

murpho999 wrote: »

What total and utter rubbish.

Thousands of people use the trains weekly and intercities are full at weekends.

Also, not everybody has a car or wants to buy one.

It's investment the train network needs to improve journey times and routes. This will encourage more people on the trains.

The population argument is rubbish too. Look at countries like Denmark, smaller population than Ireland and it has an excellent train service.

The number of journeys on intercity trains yearly are in the single digit millions. You can't argue with facts. It is not cost effective. Scrap it.

murpho999

weldoninhio wrote: »

The number of journeys on intercity trains yearly are in the single digit millions. You can't argue with facts. It is not cost effective. Scrap it.

Not everything has to make a profit. There should be some public services.

Hospitals, government departments, bus services, gardai, coastguard, fire stations, army don't make money either.

A country and its facilities should not be dictated by profit.

Your idea is as visionary as those who scrapped all of Dublin trams in the 50s and now we're spending billions rebuilding them.

weldoninhio

murpho999 wrote: »

Not everything has to make a profit. There should be some public services.

Hospitals, government departments, bus services, gardai, coastguard, fire stations, army don't make money either.

A country and its facilities should not be dictated by profit.

Your idea is as visionary as those who scrapped all of Dublin trams in the 50s and now we're spending billions rebuilding them.

Number of mentions of profit in my post: 0

murpho999

weldoninhio wrote: »

Number of mentions of profit in my post: 0

Your argument is going on about the costs and this would not be an issue if there were profits made.

weldoninhio

murpho999 wrote: »

Your argument is going on about the costs and this would not be an issue if there were profits made.

I spoke about "cost effective".

If you don't understand what that means, and why it is important, I'd advise going away, reading up on it, finding out what it means and why it is important, then coming back and retorting if you have a rebuttal. I've no intention of going in circles with someone that doesn't understand the argument.

Beta Ray Bill

murpho999 wrote: »

What total and utter rubbish.

Thousands of people use the trains weekly and intercities are full at weekends.

Also, not everybody has a car or wants to buy one.

It's investment the train network needs to improve journey times and routes. This will encourage more people on the trains.

The population argument is rubbish too. Look at countries like Denmark, smaller population than Ireland and it has an excellent train service.

Denmark has a population of 5.7 million and is about 42,000 km sq in area
Republic of Ireland has a population of 4.7 million and is about 70,000 km sq in area

Key point : Denmark is also attached by Land and Bridge to other countries.

It makes sense for them to have a heavy rail.
It doesn't make sense for Ireland.

Riva10

homerjay2005 wrote: »

"Drivers, whose pay starts at €43,716 and rises to €55,238 in increments after 10 years, would see their pay rise to more than €61,000"


seriously OTT money for unskilled jobs.

Similar to our TDs.

Hilly Bill

grahambo wrote: »

What you have to do:
Use leaver to Stop, Use leaver to Go, Press button to Open Doors, Press button to Close Doors.

What you need to know:
How leavers work, How Buttons works, Understand the difference between Green, Amber and Red signals.

Simple job.

We don't need heavy rail up and down the length and breadth country, we're a small little Island on the edge of Europe with a population of less than 5 millions most of which own or have access to cars/local bus service!

It's not the Luas that's on strike.

Hitman3000

grahambo wrote:

What you need to know: How leavers work, How Buttons works, Understand the difference between Green, Amber and Red signals.

grahambo wrote:

Simple job.

How long are you a train driver?

Hitman3000

weldoninhio wrote:

That almost sounds like a yearly incremental increase. Who else gets those, but refuses to call them pay rises??

I couldn't possibly guess .maybe you know or someone else does?

Kiith

I don't really agree that driving a train is easy. It's probably not a technically difficult job, but there is plenty that you have to be aware of, and plenty that can go wrong if something were to happen. I also don't have a massive issue with them getting paid well for this job.

What I do have an issue with, is people feeling entitled to a pay increase just for doing your job, especially in a company that is already losing money. If i work hard and do a good job this year, i might get a 2% increase in pay, depending on how the company is doing. If the company was broke, and bleeding money, no one would get an increase, because that would be suicidal for any company.

I also have a major issue with them threatening to **** over tens of thousands of people who want to get to work, get up to see Ireland in a WC qualifier, or get home for the holidays. It's disgusting carry on, and will absolutely backfire on them if they do it over Christmas.

arleitiss

Kiith wrote: »

I don't really agree that driving a train is easy. It's probably not a technically difficult job, but there is plenty that you have to be aware of, and plenty that can go wrong if something were to happen. I also don't have a massive issue with them getting paid well for this job.

What I do have an issue with, is people feeling entitled to a pay increase just for doing your job, especially in a company that is already losing money. If i work hard and do a good job this year, i might get a 2% increase in pay, depending on how the company is doing. If the company was broke, and bleeding money, no one would get an increase, because that would be suicidal for any company.

I also have a major issue with them threatening to **** over tens of thousands of people who want to get to work, get up to see Ireland in a WC qualifier, or get home for the holidays. It's disgusting carry on, and will absolutely backfire on them if they do it over Christmas.

I hope they don't come to an agreement by christmas and services fail to work on Christmas.

Yes it will **** over many people but people will adapt and get by (especially if they know about it on time) - not a ****ing chance they're getting increase then for doing same job at same quality level nor they will get any public support.

Beta Ray Bill

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's not the Luas that's on strike.

Hitman3000 wrote: »

How long are you a train driver?

Father worked Inchicore depot as a spark in the 70's.

He wasn't even trained to drive a train and he was able to do.
He said at the time the Train drivers had the best jobs going in the country.
Paid loads and easy to do.

dotsman

Hitman3000 wrote: »

They already work. You do understand inflation and workers seeking a rise to offset inflation.

Yes, I do understand inflation. But, by the sounds of your argument - you don't!

We already had an inflation driven economy and it ended (predictably) with a massive crash. We are not going back there (in fact, we still haven't recovered from the last one). The idea of pay rises for nothing must be completely eradicated from people's minds.

The concept of pay (in terms of employment) is that you get a "cut" of what you contribute to the company's profits. IT is based on the value you deliver. There are only 2 ways you legitimately get a pay rise:

1. either your contribution to the company increases (work more efficiently, take on additional responsibilities, deliver more value, work more hours etc); or
2. the company's profits grow naturally (and even then, pay rises should be minimal - ideally should be delivered via one off bonus).

Unfortunately, unions across the country, for decades, believe there is a third way to get a pay rise - throw their toys out of the pram. And when politicians tolerate it, or worse, encourage it (as happened from the late 90's up to the crash), the result is inflation, inflation, inflation and crash.

Guy:Incognito

Specialun wrote: »

End of the road

Were you not all over the luas drivers thread a while back... which rail provider are you working for

If you go back far enough its actually whatever unions do he supports. Doesn't have to be rail unions.

It's strange that his opinions line up with all of theirs. Almost a blinkered view.....

Hitman3000

dotsman wrote:

Yes, I do understand inflation. But, by the sounds of your argument - you don't!

I do understand it. I don't use terms or words I don't understand. Whether you like it or not workers are entitled to seek a pay rise. The cost of living has increased so why wouldn't pay increases be sought?

Hitman3000

grahambo wrote:

He wasn't even trained to drive a train and he was able to do. He said at the time the Train drivers had the best jobs going in the country. Paid loads and easy to do.

So your Dad as a sparks drove a train without be trained to do so, lucky he wasn't sacked. Are you suggesting that there is no difference in the trains form the 70's and now?

branie2

Now Leo Varadkar wants to ban strikes in the public sector

Hitman3000

branie2 wrote:

Now Leo Varadkar wants to ban strikes in the public sector

What's the equivalent of the 'blue flu'? Easy ring in sick same result.

pjohnson

branie2 wrote: »

Now Leo Varadkar wants to ban strikes in the public sector

They shoulda took a hint when Ross refused their blank cheque last time. Varadkar was paying attention.

arleitiss

OSI wrote: »

Isn't the vast majority of the DART fleet still the same stock was delivered back in 1983?

According to Wikipedia page:
They have 2 models running:

CIÉ 8100 Class:
23 July 1984 – present
(Refurbished in 2005-2007)
(37 of these running)

IE 8500, 8510 and 8520 Classes
All built after 2001
(17 of these running).

Refurbishment for 8100 class included:


This included the installation of:

• Modified marker lights,
• Removal of some seats to add more standing space giving all coaches 64 seats and space for a wheelchair,
• Installation of an electronic passenger information system,
• New wheel slide protection equipment and digital traction control to replace the outdated analog system,
• Installation of a door closing warning beeper.

So if trains did change - it only made the job easier.




Can pro-union users here outline the duties of what they are required to know to control train? (Genuinely curious).
I would imagine things like:

-Stopping distances in different weather conditions (although I am sure there is system that can calculate it and do it for them) but gotta know it in case system malfunctions.
-Switching rail lines (Again - probably done automatically from control room but in case that fails -> get out and move rails manually?)
-Train light/signs.
-Go forward/backward.
-Being able to look at CCTV to make sure nobody is standing in door.
-Some basic engineering skill to be able to tell when certain wire/part is sticking out/shouldn't be there.
-Probably some electricity hazard procedures.
-How to use comms.
-How to turn on lights.
-Some basic IT skill being able to press button and view information on screen.
-Unless you're a freight train driver - I doubt you need to know how to couple and uncouple carts/cars/wagons.

Can't think of anything else.