GO'H National Champion

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

If they want to make it simple, they should state that anybody on a work or student visa lasting 6 months or more are eligible. It's incredibly backwards to not allow somebody to leave the country for a few days. What if there was a family bereavement in an athlete's home country?

Murph_D wrote: »

I think Duanington's point is that a rule that denies some Irish-based elite athletes the ability to travel abroad for training (because to do so would render them ineligible to compete) is inherently unfair.

The reply would almost certainly be, why should someone who is only over here on a 6 month visa be eligible to win the national championship? Or why should someone who lives here every now and again, but competes for a different country and considers themselves a citizen of that country, be eligible to win the Irish national championship?

The current rule is clearly a compromise between (eligible for citizenship only) and (citizens, and people who live here sometimes).

Chivito550 wrote: »

Regarding the AGM, which would be a perfect opportunity to discuss these motions, not everyone can go to that. I looked into going last time and wasn't allowed to.

When did you look into it? Dublin board selects delegates to go, and afaik there are usually more places available than delegates.

You don't even need to go to the AGM. Discuss the issue with your club committee and convince them to propose a motion. (And if you do that, they will almost certainly want you to go down to speak on it, and will propose you as a delegate)

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Following on from the above, how many times did Sergiu leave the country before he gained Irish citizenship? He certainly was in Moscow for the World Championships in August 2013 representing Moldova. I cant remember if he ran the Dublin Marathon in 2013, but under these crazy rules, he'd be ineligible for that as he didn't have 6 months unbroken time spent in Ireland.

Fat chance that would be enforced though. They'll only enforce a rule when it suits them.

Did Sergiu win a national medal when he was not entitled to, or is this all babbling?

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's utterly laughable stuff.

If they want to make it simple, they should state that anybody on a work or student visa lasting 6 months or more are eligible. It's incredibly backwards to not allow somebody to leave the country for a few days. What if there was a family bereavement in an athlete's home country?

Also how would this stand up under EU law. Can a French person living here 7 years not go home for a weekend before a championship?

Regarding the AGM, which would be a perfect opportunity to discuss these motions, not everyone can go to that. I looked into going last time and wasn't allowed to.

I agree with you on this. Let's end boards now:D

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

The reply would almost certainly be, why should someone who is only over here on a 6 month visa be eligible to win the national championship? Or why should someone who lives here every now and again, but competes for a different country and considers themselves a citizen of that country, be eligible to win the Irish national championship?

The current rule is clearly a compromise between (eligible for citizenship only) and (citizens, and people who live here sometimes).




When did you look into it? Dublin board selects delegates to go, and afaik there are usually more places available than delegates.

You don't even need to go to the AGM. Discuss the issue with your club committee and convince them to propose a motion. (And if you do that, they will almost certainly want you to go down to speak on it, and will propose you as a delegate)

You do realise your take on things above are EXACTLY the situation Sergiu was in for years. Represented another country. So many people will defend that though. One rule for one, one rule for another.

Regarding the AGM, fair enough. I found out about it late, so maybe it was too late at that point. It wasn't communicated very well from whoever should have been communicating it. I also never saw anything posted on the AAI site about it.

TFBubendorfer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Also how would this stand up under EU law. Can a French person living here 7 years not go home for a weekend before a championship?

A French person living here for 7 years is eligible to an Irish passport and doesn't rely on the residency rule.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

Did Sergiu win a national medal when he was not entitled to, or is this all babbling?

Many.

ted1

Duanington wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

It’s a National title. There’s a clue in the name.

Trying to imply racism is childish and pathetic, there’s plenty of people of different races who are Irish Nationals

Where exactly did I imply racism? t!

Your comment about not having the right colour passport, implies racism.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

Did Sergiu win a national medal when he was not entitled to, or is this all babbling?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/men-masters-marathon-2013.pdf

Without digging any further into his earlier titles and medals, under these rules Sergiu should be stripped of his bronze medal here as he shouldn't be eligible. He wasn't an Irish citizen at this point. He represented Moldova only 2 months earlier. He was in Moscow 2 months before this race, so did not have 6 months unbroken time in Ireland leading up to the race.

Check mate.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Regarding the AGM, fair enough. I found out about it late, so maybe it was too late at that point. It wasn't communicated very well from whoever should have been communicating it. I also never saw anything posted on the AAI site about it.

if you go to Dublin board meetings, or are involved in your own club committee, you'll probably hear about it.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Many.

Which ones?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/men-masters-marathon-2013.pdf

Without digging any further into his earlier titles and medals, under these rules Sergiu should be stripped of his bronze medal here as he shouldn't be eligible. He wasn't an Irish citizen at this point. He represented Moldova only 2 months earlier. He was in Moscow 2 months before this race, so did not have 6 months unbroken time in Ireland leading up to the race.

What was the eligibility rule in 2013?

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

if you go to Dublin board meetings, or are involved in your own club committee, you'll probably hear about it.



Which ones?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/statistics/ROH_Outdoor_1873-2016_1.pdf

2007 Half Marathon
2009 Marathon
2010 Marathon
2014 Marathon

I don't know his habits of leaving the country for visits abroad in relation to these, but in relation to his Marathon bronze in 2013, see my post above.

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

What was the eligibility rule in 2013?

The 2015/16 competition rules say

Title Holder
An athlete is a holder of, or eligible to hold, an Irish Passport, and is affiliated to an
Or
Ordinarily resides on the island of Ireland, is a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland

if the same rules were in place in 2013, Sergiu would have qualified as 'ordinarily resident'

OOnegative

ted1 wrote: »

Your comment about not having the right colour passport, implies racism.

:rolleyes:

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

What was the eligibility rule in 2013?

I don't know. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the whole thing. Many people on the Dublin Marathon thread defending Sergiu's right to win a national title 6-7 years ago, when under these rules, he shouldn't have been allowed to compete for them. One poster said it was ok as he worked and paid tax here, and that he developed as an athlete here. That's all well and good, but means nothing under these rules.

Pure hypocrisy.

28064212

The minutes of the 2016 Congress are online here: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/other/Minutes_of_Congress_2016.pdf.

The wording of the relevant proposal (which was carried):

the Competition Rules be amended so that in order for an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist (to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members, in track and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road) and/or the holder of a Championship Record (individual or team), the athlete must be a holder of, or be eligible to hold, an Irish passport and/or must reside on the island of Ireland (for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant Championships) and must be a member of an affiliated club on the island of Ireland.

The lack of a formal definition of "reside" is a problem. By the dictionary definition ("have one's permanent home in a particular place"), if I go on a eight-week holiday to Spain and stay in a hotel, I clearly still reside in Dublin. If I migrate to Spain for, say, a 3-month work contract and stay in an apartment, it's a lot less clear. AAI need to state what their definition of "reside" is (and incorporate it into the rules properly).

From top to bottom, this has been an administrative cock-up. And it was entirely foreseeable, it's not like Freddy is some unknown sneaking in under the radar. As soon as it was known he was running, his status should have been clarified

RayCun

RayCun wrote: »

The 2015/16 competition rules say



if the same rules were in place in 2013, Sergiu would have qualified as 'ordinarily resident'

The May 2012 competition rulebook says

• Title Holder
An athlete is a holder of, or eligible to hold, an Irish Passport, and is affiliated to
an association which is a member of IAAF
Or
Ordinarily resides on the island of Ireland, is a member of an affiliated club on
the island of Ireland

so he was eligible as a club member and ordinary resident

Oiriallach

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Chivito550 wrote: »

Also how would this stand up under EU law. Can a French person living here 7 years not go home for a weekend before a championship?

A French person living here for 7 years is eligible to an Irish passport and doesn't rely on the residency rule.

A French person living in Northern Ireland (as opposed to the Republic of Ireland) for 7 years is not eligible to apply for Irish citizenship (via the naturalisation route) unless married to an Irish citizen. Note that the AAI residency rule refers to residency in the island of Ireland.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

I don't know. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the whole thing. Many people on the Dublin Marathon thread defending Sergiu's right to win a national title 6-7 years ago, when under these rules, he shouldn't have been allowed to compete for them. One poster said it was ok as he worked and paid tax here, and that he developed as an athlete here. That's all well and good, but means nothing under these rules.

Pure hypocrisy.

It isn't hypocrisy if Sergiu was eligible under the rules that applied at the time.

And the officials were not only enforcing the rules that suited them. They enforce the rules as they exist at the time of competition, which is the only thing they can do.

RayCun

28064212 wrote: »

From top to bottom, this has been an administrative cock-up. And it was entirely foreseeable, it's not like Freddy is some unknown sneaking in under the radar. As soon as it was known he was running, his status should have been clarified

His status was clarified. Athletics Ireland issued a statement the day before saying that he was eligible, because that was the information that they were given.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

It isn't hypocrisy if Sergiu was eligible under the rules that applied at the time.

And the officials were not only enforcing the rules that suited them. They enforce the rules as they exist at the time of competition, which is the only thing they can do.

It is hypocrisy when people think that Freddy shouldn’t be allowed win national title, but that Sergiu’s previous titles under today's rules are fine.

No getting away from that hypocrisy. Dig through Dublin Marathon thread if you don’t believe me.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

It is hypocrisy when people think that Freddy shouldn’t be allowed win national title, but that Sergiu’s previous titles under today's rules are fine.

No getting away from that hypocrisy. Dig through Dublin Marathon thread if you don’t believe me.

His previous titles weren't won under today's rules though, were they?

And the officials don't decide these things on a whim, they follow the rules, don't they?

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

His previous titles weren't won under today's rules though, were they?

And the officials don't decide these things on a whim, they follow the rules, don't they?

I never said they were run under today’s rules. I’m simply pointing out the hypocrisy of some people. It’s not that hard to understand.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

His previous titles weren't won under today's rules though, were they?

And the officials don't decide these things on a whim, they follow the rules, don't they?

And they clearly don’t follow their rules too closely if my friend was able to compete in National decathlon a few years ago. (Details in a post I put up earlier this morning).

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

I never said they were run under today’s rules. I’m simply pointing out the hypocrisy of some people. It’s not that hard to understand.

I'm not interested in defending what randomers say on facebook.

It would be good of you to acknowledge that, contrary to what you said above, the officials applied the rules to everyone equally, and that Sergiu didn't win any titles he wasn't eligible for.

Duanington

ted1 wrote: »

Your comment about not having the right colour passport, implies racism.

It was intended to highlight an inconsistency with the ruling, I don't think for a second racism is the issue here ( we'll leave that to the hundreds of social media comments I read in the aftermath)

Murph_D

It's good to have clarification on the rules that applied in different eras, and indeed the ones that apply this week, which were far from obvious when this discussion started.

I have no problem with Sergiu's titles, Freddy's contribution to 2016 national team gold, or GOH's eventual crowning (as long as exemption from singlet rule is reliably verified).

Thanks to Doctorchick, Ray and 28064212 for posting information about and links to the actual rules, from different eras. 99 percent of the discussions I've seen elsewhere lack these basic terms of reference and are just based on hearsay and opinion.

28064212

Murph_D wrote: »

Freddy's contribution to 2016 national team gold

Just on this, as far as I can see, Freddy's placing is not eligible for team scoring:

in order for an athlete to be either a Title Holder/Medallist (to be defined as referring to top 3 finishers or top 3 winning team members, in track and field - outdoor and/or indoor - cross country or road)

The same requirements apply to winner and team scorers

Murph_D

Interesting also that the following motion was proposed but subsequently withdrawn at the 2016 congress:

______________
67. THAT: the relevant section of the Competition Rules and Regulations 2015-2016 be amended as follows:

Championship medals

An athlete cannot qualify for an individual or team medal in any championship unless s/he is a holder of, or eligible to hold, an Irish Passport, and is affiliated to an association which is a member of IAAF

Or Is a registered member of an athletic club affiliated to the Athletics Association of Ireland and normally resides on the island of Ireland (i.e. is resident in Ireland for a
period of not less than 183 days in one calendar year and 280 days in two consecutive years).

DUBLIN
WITHDRAWN

(source: 2016 congress minutes linked above)

___________________________________

So there was at least talk of an alternative definition of residence, along the lines of standard definitions of tax residence.

Murph_D

28064212 wrote: »

Just on this, as far as I can see, Freddy's placing is not eligible for team scoring:

The same requirements apply to winner and team scorers

Apologies - I meant to write 2015 team gold, before the rule was changed.

Chivito550

Murph_D wrote: »

Interesting also that the following motion was proposed but subsequently withdrawn at the 2016 congress:

______________
67. THAT: the relevant section of the Competition Rules and Regulations 2015-2016 be amended as follows:

Championship medals

An athlete cannot qualify for an individual or team medal in any championship unless s/he is a holder of, or eligible to hold, an Irish Passport, and is affiliated to an association which is a member of IAAF

Or Is a registered member of an athletic club affiliated to the Athletics Association of Ireland and normally resides on the island of Ireland (i.e. is resident in Ireland for a
period of not less than 183 days in one calendar year and 280 days in two consecutive years).

DUBLIN
WITHDRAWN

(source: 2016 congress minutes linked above)

___________________________________

So there was at least talk of an alternative definition of residence, along the lines of standard definitions of tax residence.

Those would have been smarter, clearer and fairer rules.

I get the impression that these rules currently in place were proposed with the sole purpose of eliminating certain people. Obviously that’s just a suspicion of mine and I can’t prove that.