GO'H National Champion

Safiri

Fair enough on clearing up the rules but this has got to be the stupidest rule ever:

An athlete must reside on the island of Ireland for a minimum of 6 consecutive months immediately prior to the relevant championship

Does this disqualify all our athletes who are on scholarship in America? Are all of our athletes who train abroad(Mageann etc.) Now ineligible? What about athletes who go for altitude training for a few weeks before competition? I myself would be now ineligible for track and XC this year despite living in Ireland for 99.9% of my life. Stupid rule which will just open itself up to abusive reporting by other competitor's.

OOnegative

Safiri wrote: »

Fair enough on clearing up the rules but this has got to be the stupidest rule ever:



Does this disqualify all our athletes who are on scholarship in America? Are all of our athletes who train abroad(Mageann etc.) Now ineligible? What about athletes who go for altitude training for a few weeks before competition? I myself would be now ineligible for track and XC this year despite living in Ireland for 99.9% of my life. Stupid rule which will just open itself up to abusive reporting by other competitor's.

Should be called the Freddie Sittuk rule!!

RayCun

Safiri wrote: »

Fair enough on clearing up the rules but this has got to be the stupidest rule ever:



Does this disqualify all our athletes who are on scholarship in America? Are all of our athletes who train abroad(Mageann etc.) Now ineligible? What about athletes who go for altitude training for a few weeks before competition? I myself would be now ineligible for track and XC this year despite living in Ireland for 99.9% of my life. Stupid rule which will just open itself up to abusive reporting by other competitor's.

No, because they qualify as

An athlete must be a holder of, or eligible to hold an Irish Passport

6 months continuous residence is an alternative qualification

Safiri

RayCun wrote: »

No, because they qualify as



6 months continuous residence is an alternative qualification

Ah fair enough, my bad but it doesn't read like that. An "or" between them would be a lot more clear. It just looks like you to fulfil all criteria now.

RayCun

Safiri wrote: »

Ah fair enough, my bad but it doesn't read like that. An "or" between them would be a lot more clear. It just looks like you to fulfil all criteria now.

Yeah, it isn't very clear as written, I would hope the actual rules are better written.
1. You have to be a member of an Irish club
AND
2. You have to be either an Irish passport holder OR continuously resident.

happygoose

RayCun wrote: »

This was all discussed at the AAI congress a few weeks ago. The minutes are out now, the relevant bit would be

"(iii) It is the responsibility of the athlete’s club to ensure the athlete fulfils all the conditions of eligibility to compete in the Championship. Evidence may be requested if required. Any breaches of this will leave the club liable to a penalty."

Very AAI.

AAI changed how entries are put into the National Marathon Championship a few years ago. It used to be case that entrants had to notify their club competition secretary in order to be included in the championship, however like any distance championship on the road nobody was really arsed entering, bar those possibly in contention, instead, they entered everyone from the open competition into the Championship that was attached to a Club.

Entries now bypass the competition secretary, so the Club have no control over who enters the open race, yet, if an athlete of theirs wins a championship, the Club are subject to a penalty? Bizarre.

Have a club the right to ask an athlete of their residential status from an athlete? I'm not so sure they have. Is there any obligation on an athlete to provide it? Again, I'd be doubtful.

Is it just a measure that absolves AAI of responsibility and moves the problem to the Club? Looks like it.

So many other alternative workarounds to make championships attractive and ensure eligibility.

Very AAI.

RayCun

happygoose wrote: »

Entries now bypass the competition secretary, so the Club have no control over who enters the open race, yet, if an athlete of theirs wins a championship, the Club are subject to a penalty? Bizarre.

The clubs are supposed to declare their championship teams, and they are informed of the entrants in the national championship, which obviously includes those who say they are representing that club in the championship.

Someone has to check if an athlete is qualified. You say the club mightn't have the right to check an athlete's residential status. Does Athletics Ireland have more of a right? Doesn't it make sense that the people who are entering a team check to make sure that the team members are eligible? There is no obligation on an athlete to provide that information - but if they don't, they can't be named on the team.

What alternatives do you have in mind?

happygoose

RayCun wrote: »

The clubs are supposed to declare their championship teams, and they are informed of the entrants in the national championship, which obviously includes those who say they are representing that club in the championship.

Someone has to check if an athlete is qualified. You say the club mightn't have the right to check an athlete's residential status. Does Athletics Ireland have more of a right? Doesn't it make sense that the people who are entering a team check to make sure that the team members are eligible? There is no obligation on an athlete to provide that information - but if they don't, they can't be named on the team.

What alternatives do you have in mind?

RayCun wrote: »

The clubs are supposed to declare their championship teams, and they are informed of the entrants in the national championship, which obviously includes those who say they are representing that club in the championship.

Someone has to check if an athlete is qualified. You say the club mightn't have the right to check an athlete's residential status. Does Athletics Ireland have more of a right? Doesn't it make sense that the people who are entering a team check to make sure that the team members are eligible? There is no obligation on an athlete to provide that information - but if they don't, they can't be named on the team.

What alternatives do you have in mind?

The club is not informed of who has entered the marathon in the open competition nor do they declare teams any more. I was competition sec at the time of this change.

Yes it’s easier for AAI to implement.

1 - they have legitimate business purpose in requesting the information, it’s their competition.

2 - they’ve access to entries through BHAA/Dublin Marathon, which the Clubs don’t.

3 - AAI have communications with race organists could BHAA/Dublin Marathon.

The easiest option is to make a minor amendment on the marathon entry form. Put the onus on the athlete, check box or series of 2/3 check boxes on the form, relating to the criteria. I assume there’s already one in relation to Nationality. That whittles down most that are ineligible for championship.

It’s clear that most if not all of those that are habitually resident elsewhere, not holders of passports are on C Visa’s which have a limit below the residency requirement.

Discount entry for marathon championship to encourage entry as per National half.

RayCun

happygoose wrote: »

The club is not informed of who has entered the marathon in the open competition nor do they declare teams any more. I was competition sec at the time of this change.

This list was sent out in September, and an updated version in October.
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/other/Marathon_Entry_List_261017.pdf
I said upthread that AAI should be stricter about this - a deadline for championship entries, a final list, and if you're not on the final list, you are not in the championship.

happygoose wrote: »

1 - they have legitimate business purpose in requesting the information, it’s their competition.

It's the club's team! They have a legitimate interest too.

happygoose wrote: »

2 - they’ve access to entries through BHAA/Dublin Marathon, which the Clubs don’t.

But they send that information out to the clubs.

happygoose wrote: »

3 - AAI have communications with race organists could BHAA/Dublin Marathon.

Again, they send out a list that says "these are the entrants in the national championships". They should be clear that anybody on the list is not eligible.

happygoose wrote: »

The easiest option is to make a minor amendment on the marathon entry form. Put the onus on the athlete, check box or series of 2/3 check boxes on the form, relating to the criteria. I assume there’s already one in relation to Nationality. That whittles down most that are ineligible for championship.

1. You've said above that clubs aren't aware of the eligibility requirements. Are all the individual athletes in the club going to be better informed?

2. The nature of the requirements is that you could enter in June, and be eligible at the time, but then not eligible in October. Or vice versa.

happygoose wrote: »

Discount entry for marathon championship to encourage entry as per National half.

Is this a problem that needs solving?

happygoose

RayCun wrote: »

This list was sent out in September, and an updated version in October.
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/downloads/other/Marathon_Entry_List_261017.pdf
I said upthread that AAI should be stricter about this - a deadline for championship entries, a final list, and if you're not on the final list, you are not in the championship.




It's the club's team! They have a legitimate interest too.



But they send that information out to the clubs.



Again, they send out a list that says "these are the entrants in the national championships". They should be clear that anybody on the list is not eligible.



1. You've said above that clubs aren't aware of the eligibility requirements. Are all the individual athletes in the club going to be better informed?

2. The nature of the requirements is that you could enter in June, and be eligible at the time, but then not eligible in October. Or vice versa.



Is this a problem that needs solving?

It was a problem that needed solving - most athletes weren’t informing clubs of their wish/want to enter the Championship, that’s why they changed the format and entered anyone that registered as attached to a club in the open competition into the championship.

They posted ‘entries’ on their website, with those names automatically declared. They removed the requirement from Club Competition Secs.

June’s nothing got to do with it, it’s a requirement at the time of competition. October.

Where did I say Clubs aren’t aware of the eligibility requirements?

It’s the organisers responsibility to ensure that eligibity is met. AAI set their competition rules which are governed by their competition committee, albeit poorly. Laughable to see what happened last October. Laughable that if poor Freddy was second he would’ve been eligible to finish second and not first. Laughable that someone in that situation can score points in a National League.

Sure Clubs have a ‘legitimate interest’ but I meant in a request for personal information capacity, legitimate business interest as being once of the six lawful grounds for processing, taking into account the principle of data minimization, where does the responsibility sit - it’s the organisation who hosts the championship.

This evening is too nice to be dealing with obfuscation 🙄

RayCun

June’s nothing got to do with it, it’s a requirement at the time of competition. October.

But most people enter before June. How can you declare in June that you will have been in the country continuously for the six months to October?

The procedure should be simple

1. Entries close a couple of months before the race (or a month before, if you want some leeway)
2. AAI send out a list of the entrants who say they are in the championship
3. Clubs check that list to make sure everyone who should be on it is on it, and nobody is listed who shouldn't be (which would include other clubs saying, "hey, what is that guy doing on the list?"
4. Final list is sent out a week before the race, and only the people on the list are eligible

Late entries and late declarations cause problems. No time for checking, not everyone knows about the entries.

GDPR is not an issue, because the athlete is 'opting in' to the championship.