Mental Health thread

Pat Mustard

This thread is dedicated to matters relating to mental health.

It is a topic that seems to arise more and more regularly.

El_Duderino 09

Copied from men’s rights thread to newly opened mental health thread

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/living/2017/1101/916705-eoghan-mcdermott-on-why-he-became-an-advocate-for-pieta-house/

Eoghan McDermott talking about mental health. Fair play. I can’t say I know anything about him but If it helps some people who identify with him, then good on him.

I see someone in the other thread has already called his efforts ‘virtue signalling’. Surely those interested in advancing men’s mental health will be in favour of supporting men’s mental health and those who promote it.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I see someone in the other thread has already called his efforts ‘virtue signalling’. Surely those interested in advancing men’s mental health will be in favour of supporting men’s mental health and those who promote it.

It depends upon a few different factors El_D. Eoghan McDermott is an example of a guy who isn't proselytising and comes across as genuinely interested in relating to young people with mental health issues. That is his only agenda. He uses his position in the media to relate to people and to set good example.

Contrast that with a guy with a plastic bag on his head, who on one of the rare occasions he has access to the national media, suggests that feminism is the answer to young men's issues.

I think I know which of those men I could sooner relate to and would be more prepared to listen to in a conversation about mental health. I'll give you a hint - it isn't the guy with the plastic bag on his head.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It depends upon a few different factors El_D. Eoghan McDermott is an example of a guy who isn't proselytising and comes across as genuinely interested in relating to young people with mental health issues. That is his only agenda. He uses his position in the media to relate to people and to set good example.

Contrast that with a guy with a plastic bag on his head, who on one of the rare occasions he has access to the national media, suggests that feminism is the answer to young men's issues.

I think I know which of those men I could sooner relate to and would be more prepared to listen to in a conversation about mental health. I'll give you a hint - it isn't the guy with the plastic bag on his head.

Fair enough as long as they appeal to different people and give a positive message.

silverharp

i dont know much about McDermott but he is a bit "Buzzfeed" for my liking.

El_Duderino 09

What does buzzfeed mean?

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What does buzzfeed mean?

This is exactly why I couldn't be bothered entertaining any kind of a discussion with you tbh. It's this sort of disingenuous naiveté act that means this thread would probably be ruined from the outset. I tried a first attempt to make a reasonable point, and you came back with the same point you had already made again as if I hadn't clearly demonstrated why it's so important especially when it comes to the topic of men's mental health, that we choose very carefully who we listen to, and are able to determine who is actually interested in men's mental health, and who's simply interested in promoting themselves.

Anyway - buzzfeed

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What does buzzfeed mean?

This is exactly why I couldn't be bothered entertaining any kind of a discussion with you tbh. It's this sort of disingenuous naiveté act that means this thread would probably be ruined from the outset. I tried a first attempt to make a reasonable point, and you came back with the same point you had already made again as if I hadn't clearly demonstrated why it's so important especially when it comes to the topic of men's mental health, that we choose very carefully who we listen to, and are able to determine who is actually interested in men's mental health, and who's simply interested in promoting themselves.

Anyway - buzzfeed

I followed the link. I liked your little joke.

I didn’t see any reason to go down the rubberbandits argument again as you too were making the point you’ve made before as if it would have new significance.

Anyway I googled buzzfeed and it seems to be an entertainment news site. The article linked was in the lifestyle section (I think) so it probably is ‘a bit buzzfeed’. So what? It’s advertising a mental health and suicide prevention service which is an important issue for men and men’s health.

One eyed Jack

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So what? It’s advertising a mental health and suicide prevention service which is an important issue for men and men’s health.

If I'm to give you the benefit of the doubt then, my point is that what's just as important as addressing the issue of men's mental health, is who is giving advice and the kind of advice they're giving, who's giving the support, and the kind of support they're giving.

It's not enough IMO to say "So what?" as though we should accept that they have any genuine interest in men's health, nor should the standard be that "well they're helping someone so it's all good" (I'm paraphrasing).

If healthy mental health is the goal, then of course we should scrutinize whether the ideas actually being put forward are genuinely of any benefit to young boys and men, or is it just the promotion of their own political and social ideology which they have adopted to further their own careers.

lazybones32

Getting derailed already....

I am somewhat uneasy about the constant attention given to "mental health" (a very vague yet broad term).
I see more and more people describing themselves as having mental health issues but i wonder if this is self-diagnosed or diagnosed by a competent practitioner? Besides, if we went for psychological evaluation, the results could easily come back that we all have some condition. My sister was diagnosed with having some obscure form of autism or assburgers - which i think is horsesh*t - but now she uses that as an excuse and firmly believes she has mental health problems that are beyond her control. She didn't get a 2nd or 3rd opinion either.

Focusing too much on how you are feeling is bad for you. And scrutinizing every thought will lead to more neurotic people. The more you focus on a point, the bigger it seems to become.

I would recommend everyone to buy a proper psychology textbook though. The human mind is awesome.

Christy42

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If I'm to give you the benefit of the doubt then, my point is that what's just as important as addressing the issue of men's mental health, is who is giving advice and the kind of advice they're giving, who's giving the support, and the kind of support they're giving.

It's not enough IMO to say "So what?" as though we should accept that they have any genuine interest in men's health, nor should the standard be that "well they're helping someone so it's all good" (I'm paraphrasing).

If healthy mental health is the goal, then of course we should scrutinize whether the ideas actually being put forward are genuinely of any benefit to young boys and men, or is it just the promotion of their own political and social ideology which they have adopted to further their own careers.

Do you have evidence that the bandits only do it for their careers?

For me their logic holds some water. I mean it does seem logical that a lot of the issues with men is the pressure to be the primary bread winner all the time or that men are not allowed feel or show emotion. This is generally what I have seen them arguing against. That men should not feel this pressure to avoid showing their feelings. Is there evidence this does not work?

I liked - if liked is the right word in this context - the "coming out" as depressed video one of my You Tube channel Subscriptions did recently. Since he has coming up on 6million subscribers it is the kind of thing I would like to see more of as a consciousness raising thing.

Hardest part of depression and other mental health issues is knowing not just who to ask for help - but what to ask. When you have an empty and formless feeling of things just being wrong - it is hard to formulate it or articulate it in a way that one would even know how to ask for help.

When I had a bit of a spectacular break down myself a shortish while back I knew something was coming - it was there like a cloud on the edge of mental peripheral vision - but I simply did not know what it was until I simply went temporarily mad and then broke down. Only then was there some "ahhhh so that is what is going on with me" moment where I could suddenly start addressing things.

El_Duderino 09

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If I'm to give you the benefit of the doubt then, my point is that what's just as important as addressing the issue of men's mental health, is who is giving advice and the kind of advice they're giving, who's giving the support, and the kind of support they're giving.

It's not enough IMO to say "So what?" as though we should accept that they have any genuine interest in men's health, nor should the standard be that "well they're helping someone so it's all good" (I'm paraphrasing).

If healthy mental health is the goal, then of course we should scrutinize whether the ideas actually being put forward are genuinely of any benefit to young boys and men, or is it just the promotion of their own political and social ideology which they have adopted to further their own careers.

Big of you to give me the benefit of the doubt. But I’m going to call your genuineness into question here.

Where did this purity standard come from? If you saw a billboard advertising a men’s domestic violence service or prostate cancer checks, would you worry about how genuinely concerned the billboard company is about the services they advertise?

Yes, ‘so what’ if they also make a profit whilst furthering a rights issue.

Scrutinising whether the service is of any benefit to men is valid but this purity test you’re proposing is nonsense.

I don’t suppose this guy expects his public profile to be diminished by publicising this service. So what if it’s win-win-win for the service, the service users and the bloke advertising it?

I wouldn’t care if they hired a celebrity to advertise the service as long as it’s a good service and it helps people.

Why is this even controversial for you?

One eyed Jack

Christy42 wrote: »

Do you have evidence that the bandits only do it for their careers?

For me their logic holds some water. I mean it does seem logical that a lot of the issues with men is the pressure to be the primary bread winner all the time or that men are not allowed feel or show emotion. This is generally what I have seen them arguing against. That men should not feel this pressure to avoid showing their feelings. Is there evidence this does not work?

I'm only using the bandits as an example, before we get too hung up on them, and no, I don't have any evidence that they are using the issue of men's mental health to further their own careers because their careers have been stagnant for a while now. Perhaps I should have said a change of careers.

I don't think at all that the issues with men are the pressure to be the primary breadwinner, certainly from my experience and the experiences of young men I have talked to, the far more pressing issue is actually their ability to gain employment in the first place, and among the middle-aged men I have talked to, the uncertainty of potentially being made redundant was the most pressing issue for them.

These men placed their value in society in what they could contribute to society, rather than having to depend upon society or seeing a future for themselves where they would have to depend upon social supports with poor prospects for employment. Their poor prospects for employment stemmed from their lack of education and training, which stemmed from lacking the confidence in themselves to even try to achieve something for themselves.

I don't know where this idea that some people have that men feel they aren't allowed show their feelings comes from, what feelings are they wanting men to show exactly? Men show happiness and joy and a whole range of emotions. These emotions aren't the misery porn that some people would wish men to show, so we're probably working off two different standards here really.

I don't see how encouraging men to be miserable could possibly encourage a healthy mind.

Christy42

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'm only using the bandits as an example, before we get too hung up on them, and no, I don't have any evidence that they are using the issue of men's mental health to further their own careers because their careers have been stagnant for a while now. Perhaps I should have said a change of careers.

I don't think at all that the issues with men are the pressure to be the primary breadwinner, certainly from my experience and the experiences of young men I have talked to, the far more pressing issue is actually their ability to gain employment in the first place, and among the middle-aged men I have talked to, the uncertainty of potentially being made redundant was the most pressing issue for them.

These men placed their value in society in what they could contribute to society, rather than having to depend upon society or seeing a future for themselves where they would have to depend upon social supports with poor prospects for employment. Their poor prospects for employment stemmed from their lack of education and training, which stemmed from lacking the confidence in themselves to even try to achieve something for themselves.

I don't know where this idea that some people have that men feel they aren't allowed show their feelings comes from, what feelings are they wanting men to show exactly? Men show happiness and joy and a whole range of emotions. These emotions aren't the misery porn that some people would wish men to show, so we're probably working off two different standards here really.

I don't see how encouraging men to be miserable could possibly encourage a healthy mind.

Plenty of men are already miserable. Otherwise we would not have this thread. We have all these adds saying we need to talk when sad which is what is being advocated by this approach. Talk to people you trust if you are hurting (or go to a handy helpline/professional). We don't need men to be sad but we have a lot of pressure on men to not break or show weakness. It is counter productive.

As for your examples it seems like it would be far more helpful if we didn't have people whose entire self worth is dependent on the job market. The job market is always swing and depending on it to give meaning to people's lives is dangerous until a solution that s found.

By all means I would encourage people to look for work and to keep looking but it does not make you a failure to not have a job. We developed as social creatures. If someone needs help from the group for a while, well that will happen. It will be far easier to get to that point of contributing if society has not made them feel like a failure for the last few months/years.

Indeed the same idea also supports education facilities to be improved for people who can't afford it and people both young and old which is something you mentioned.

One eyed Jack

@Christy

I would hope this thread would be about more than just the mental health of miserable men tbh. I see no reason why we couldn't talk about preventative strategies to prevent ill mental health in the same way as I would often be lectured about my physical health. I see no reason why this thread couldn't be about the good, the bad, the ugly and the in-between regarding our mental health. There's a saturation point IMO that's long been reached in this country where men are already aware of the importance of looking after their mental health as well as their physical health.

I actually do kind of understand where you're coming from in that men in Irish society don't particularly talk openly about the problems they may be experiencing in their lives, and I think your advice to talk to people in their lives they trust, or to avail of the many, many mental health groups or services in their area is a good one. Personally I'd be more of the former than the latter myself, and even then I wouldn't want people knowing an awful lot either. I don't see the idea of expecting men to be resilient as counter-productive to their mental health though. I think what's actually counter-productive is this idea being promoted that men should talk more about their mental health, because I actually see that as more of a pressure on men, that they should be doing something that doesn't really come naturally to them. Simplistic platitudes lack the nuance and authenticity that they are trying to convey, and I don't think it's at all particularly helpful. In my experience at least, men generally tend to communicate their distress in subtle ways, alluding to it and dancing around it, rather than just coming straight out with it. I think what's more important is that people are encouraged simply to listen, rather than talk. It comes out naturally, indirectly, unconsciously, rather than being confronted directly.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant when I was saying when I was making the point about how men in my experience place their value in society in what they contribute to society. How they view their self-worth isn't dependent on the jobs market, I said it was dependent upon being able to gain employment in the first place, and then to be able to sustain employment without the uncertainty of being made redundant. I really don't pull this stuff out of my ass -

Findings

Despite differences in the four world regions, the overall model, adjusted for the unemployment rate, showed that the annual relative risk of suicide decreased by 1·1% (95% CI 0·8–1·4) per year between 2000 and 2011. The best and most stable final model indicated that a higher suicide rate preceded a rise in unemployment (lagged by 6 months) and that the effect was non-linear with higher effects for lower baseline unemployment rates. In all world regions, the relative risk of suicide associated with unemployment was elevated by about 20–30% during the study period. Overall, 41 148 (95% CI 39 552–42 744) suicides were associated with unemployment in 2007 and 46 131 (44 292–47 970) in 2009, indicating 4983 excess suicides since the economic crisis in 2008.

Interpretation

Suicides associated with unemployment totalled a nine-fold higher number of deaths than excess suicides attributed to the most recent economic crisis. Prevention strategies focused on the unemployed and on employment and its conditions are necessary not only in difficult times but also in times of stable economy.


Source: Modelling suicide and unemployment: a longitudinal analysis covering 63 countries, 2000–11, The Lancet, 2015


I think you are woefully underestimating the importance to men of being able to provide for themselves and their families. The fact is that many men do see themselves as failures, not just because they are unemployed, but because they are unable to provide for themselves and their families, and they are unable to contribute to society. Gainful and sustainable employment gives them the opportunity to do all that, increasing their self-worth and their perception of their value to society, and therefore decreasing their risk of ill mental health and suicide.

When it comes to education, men, again in my experience, prefer to be able to provide for education, and through taxation is how they provide education not just for themselves, but for others - they are contributing to something and they see the value in their contribution. The vast, vast majority of men experiencing ill mental health in my experience do see the value in education and training, and are reluctant to rely on State welfare. They don't want to be on it, but a vicious circle of lack of motivation leads to lack of education leads to lack of employment leads to lack of being able to provide for themselves and their families which, you guessed it - leads to men feeling as though they have nothing to contribute to society, which is demotivating for them.

One of the ways to tackle the issue is to take it on before it becomes an issue, give young boys the tools they need when they are young, and we are beginning to do that in schools, in both primary and secondary education with programmes like these, as part and parcel of an holistic and necessary education -


Well-Being In Primary Schools

Well-Being In Post-Primary Schools

Christy42

One eyed Jack wrote: »

@Christy

I would hope this thread would be about more than just the mental health of miserable men tbh. I see no reason why we couldn't talk about preventative strategies to prevent ill mental health in the same way as I would often be lectured about my physical health. I see no reason why this thread couldn't be about the good, the bad, the ugly and the in-between regarding our mental health. There's a saturation point IMO that's long been reached in this country where men are already aware of the importance of looking after their mental health as well as their physical health.

I actually do kind of understand where you're coming from in that men in Irish society don't particularly talk openly about the problems they may be experiencing in their lives, and I think your advice to talk to people in their lives they trust, or to avail of the many, many mental health groups or services in their area is a good one. Personally I'd be more of the former than the latter myself, and even then I wouldn't want people knowing an awful lot either. I don't see the idea of expecting men to be resilient as counter-productive to their mental health though. I think what's actually counter-productive is this idea being promoted that men should talk more about their mental health, because I actually see that as more of a pressure on men, that they should be doing something that doesn't really come naturally to them. Simplistic platitudes lack the nuance and authenticity that they are trying to convey, and I don't think it's at all particularly helpful. In my experience at least, men generally tend to communicate their distress in subtle ways, alluding to it and dancing around it, rather than just coming straight out with it. I think what's more important is that people are encouraged simply to listen, rather than talk. It comes out naturally, indirectly, unconsciously, rather than being confronted directly.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant when I was saying when I was making the point about how men in my experience place their value in society in what they contribute to society. How they view their self-worth isn't dependent on the jobs market, I said it was dependent upon being able to gain employment in the first place, and then to be able to sustain employment without the uncertainty of being made redundant. I really don't pull this stuff out of my ass -

Findings

Despite differences in the four world regions, the overall model, adjusted for the unemployment rate, showed that the annual relative risk of suicide decreased by 1·1% (95% CI 0·8–1·4) per year between 2000 and 2011. The best and most stable final model indicated that a higher suicide rate preceded a rise in unemployment (lagged by 6 months) and that the effect was non-linear with higher effects for lower baseline unemployment rates. In all world regions, the relative risk of suicide associated with unemployment was elevated by about 20–30% during the study period. Overall, 41 148 (95% CI 39 552–42 744) suicides were associated with unemployment in 2007 and 46 131 (44 292–47 970) in 2009, indicating 4983 excess suicides since the economic crisis in 2008.

Interpretation

Suicides associated with unemployment totalled a nine-fold higher number of deaths than excess suicides attributed to the most recent economic crisis. Prevention strategies focused on the unemployed and on employment and its conditions are necessary not only in difficult times but also in times of stable economy.


Source: Modelling suicide and unemployment: a longitudinal analysis covering 63 countries, 2000–11, The Lancet, 2015


I think you are woefully underestimating the importance to men of being able to provide for themselves and their families. The fact is that many men do see themselves as failures, not just because they are unemployed, but because they are unable to provide for themselves and their families, and they are unable to contribute to society. Gainful and sustainable employment gives them the opportunity to do all that, increasing their self-worth and their perception of their value to society, and therefore decreasing their risk of ill mental health and suicide.

When it comes to education, men, again in my experience, prefer to be able to provide for education, and through taxation is how they provide education not just for themselves, but for others - they are contributing to something and they see the value in their contribution. The vast, vast majority of men experiencing ill mental health in my experience do see the value in education and training, and are reluctant to rely on State welfare. They don't want to be on it, but a vicious circle of lack of motivation leads to lack of education leads to lack of employment leads to lack of being able to provide for themselves and their families which, you guessed it - leads to men feeling as though they have nothing to contribute to society, which is demotivating for them.

One of the ways to tackle the issue is to take it on before it becomes an issue, give young boys the tools they need when they are young, and we are beginning to do that in schools, in both primary and secondary education with programmes like these, as part and parcel of an holistic and necessary education -


Well-Being In Primary Schools

Well-Being In Post-Primary Schools

By the jobs market I meant an increase in unemployment can lead to an increase in suicides. Increases and decreases in unemployment will hapen for the forsee able future. I think we are in agreement on that. Indeed there should be a focus on the most vulnerable but as long as people think unemployment is failure it will be a losing battle.

I think where we differ is I don't think the need to always be the sole provider is natural. I think it is taught to us. I mean education is an investment from society in an individual. I found few men in college who wanted to pay more for it. Even if the government were paying most of it.

I agree we should focus on the most vulnerable but if we can teach people not to see those things as failure then we could vastly reduce the damage further busts can do to mental health if people believe they can contribute to society even while unemployed (or that it is a temporary situation and some period unemployed still means you are useful).

Similarly I am going with the professionals on talking. I think we are uncomfortable because it is not done. I know some groups that talk far more than others so it seems to be a learned behaviour.

I guess it all comes down to nature vs nurture.
I hope I am right. Talking has been shown to vastly help people and if it also hurts men then we are in a bad bind indeed.

I agree that preventative measures are also important. Easier to stop issues than fix them. I think we are going for the same place but a difference in belief on how to get there.

Wibbs

Christy42 wrote: »

I think where we differ is I don't think the need to always be the sole provider is natural. I think it is taught to us.

For all the talk of blank slates and nurture being more important than nature, I'm not so sure about that C. Now I equally find much of the other side, evolutionary psychology to be dubious at best, but there may be something to it in this particular case.

For the vast majority of cultures across all of human history man being the hunter/provider as a sexually selected for trait was strong. Very strong. Even in "Stone Age" type societies today, when women are asked what is attractive about the men they're with the biggies are strength, intelligence, kindness and hunting/provider/resources ability. And these are societies where it's the women who actually provide the bulk of the calories for the group through gathering. In pretty much every culture on earth throughout history and down to today the man with more resources gets more attention from more women than the man who doesn't. Put it another way C, if you became rich and famous tomorrow would your potential pool of women that would be attracted to you go down or go up? If an equivalent woman became rich and famous tomorrow(and it wasn't because of her beauty) her potential pool would go up alright, but not nearly so much as yours would.

As an aside: that's an aspect of that nasty bastard Weinstein in the news of late that makes things even more greasy(if that were possible). If he had been a genuinely nice bloke with that CV of great wealth and talent at spotting great artistic projects he would have had a very wide potential pool of women much more physically attractive than him that would have been genuinely happy to be with him as a partner. But because he is a greasy scumbag that clearly wasn't enough. All about the power over those beneath him.

So yes I would believe that man being a "provider" is somewhat hardwired into our species and it's culture that reflects that. Now don't get me wrong C, "provider" isn't just about money or a job as such. It can also be emotional, parental, societal, local and wider provider roles that are also in play. Maybe that's where the dialogue needs to go? To widen out the criteria to what it means to be a man who is a provider and get that across to men. e.g. I know of a couple where she earns far more than he ever did and has much higher qualifications. However he is much more involved with the community at large and is a mover and shaker within that and is more hands on with their kids. He was more "social power" as it were than she does and this makes them an equal partnership beyond what either of them are earning in their jobs.

Christy42

That last paragraph is a good idea. As you say attraction has not changed (though I also know plenty of guys happy with little in the way of romantic relationships) but the details have (men know would have a stronger preferances towards women who want to have full time jobs than say 50 years ago as an example) so only going off how a 50s standard for a relationship is a bad idea. You gave a good example of someone who has their self worth tied in an activity not so dependent on the banks behaving themselves.

I also have no idea how I would react to no job and debt. I know how I hope I would react but I can't guarantee it.

One eyed Jack

This may come out arseways as I'm on mobile but thought it might be worth sharing if anyone here had any suggestions or wanted to share their experiences of mental health services in Ireland -

Have your voice heard in Mental Health Reform’s national consultation on mental health services.

We want to hear from people using mental health services, and the people that support them.

Service User Survey

Family, Friends and Carers Survey

What is it?

My Voice Matters is a national consultation that will gather feedback through two surveys, one for people who use mental health services and one for their family members, friends and carers. Part of the research will be carried out through a survey. This can take different amounts of time depending on the person, you should allow 15-20 minutes to complete the survey. The surveys will look at three main issues:

What services are available Experience of services provided How services could be improved

This information will help Mental Health Reform identify gaps in mental health services and, in turn, campaign for improvements.

The results of the consultation will be published in a report by MHR in 2018 and will also be submitted to the Mental Health Commission, the HSE and the Minister with responsibility for Mental Health.

It should be noted that Mental Health Reform is an independent organisation, and the HSE has no editorial control over any of our publications. This research will also be archived.

Our promise – Confidentiality

There will be no names or contact information collected in the survey, and it will not be possible to identify you in the research.

Who can take part in this study?

Anyone who is using or has used mental health services for their mental health difficulty in the last two years can complete the ‘service user’ survey.

Anyone who is supporting or has supported someone who is using or has used mental health services in the last two years can complete the ‘family, friends, and carers’ survey.

If you’re interested in taking part in the ‘service user’ survey, click here.
If you’re interested in taking part in the ‘family, friends, and carers’ survey, click here.


My Voice Matters: National Consultation on Mental Health Services
National Consultation 2017 - Mental Health Reform