D&D Subforum / Pen & Paper RPG Discussion Thread

Fourier

As I go over your character sheets, I'll probably give you 1-3 custom moves to reflect equipment or background.

Fourier

Character types are here:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Monster-of-the-Week-Revised-Playbooks.pdf

Let me know which one you want and we'll do the rest of the chargen (which is trivial, especially if you're Banjo since you've already done it).

Necro, Giles would be "The Expert".

Banjo

Fourier wrote: »

Character types are here:
https://www.evilhat.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Monster-of-the-Week-Revised-Playbooks.pdf

Let me know which one you want and we'll do the rest of the chargen (which is trivial, especially if you're Banjo since you've already done it).

Necro, Giles would be "The Expert".

I can confirm, character creation can be done in seconds, it's just a few questions and no rolls at all. The Wronged is taken!

Necro

Banjo wrote: »

I can confirm, character creation can be done in seconds, it's just a few questions and no rolls at all. The Wronged is taken!

The Wronged... why does that seem so fitting for you.

I'll create mine a little bit later this morning.

Nebelwerfer

Hi, still spots free here?

Fourier

Nebelwerfer wrote: »

Hi, still spots free here?

Yeah definitely Nebel, more the merrier.

Fourier

Okay so with character class picked you basically just answer the questions listed for them. PM me with the sheet or any questions.

Necro

Sorry for delay, sent on now, just unsure on whether we do the History thing yet is all...

Tigger WW

Room for. Skiffle one

Fourier

Yeah, hop on board Tigger

Tigger WW

Fourier wrote: »

Yeah, hop on board Tigger

Bounce

Tigger WW

Professional please thank you

Fourier

Tigger WW wrote: »

Professional please thank you

Perfect, then just send me on your choices for the options, e.g. Gear, Moves

Baggly

Mod

Post moved from game thread at player request.

Banjo wrote:

OOC : The board really needs a spy emoji! I am not at liberty to say. But does it matter? It's not like you can leave! Remember, under recent rulings, I'm not locked in here with you....

Mod

Im not sure if you want to discuss the point here (or at all if you are only joking) but if you do want to go over it I can move the relevant posts to the d&d discussion thread.

No problem re: not answering the question (I was only chancing the arm asking anyway).

Any player can leave any time they want. Leaving without notifying the GM in question though, that's a different story. We have lots of examples of games being paused or character put into a meditative trance so that people could leave the game. Players have been killed off as well to suit both GM and player, where staying in the game wasn't an option.

As well, GM's are free to leave whenever they want. Either a new GM takes over (which I imagine would be tricky) or the game is abandoned.

No-one who doesn't want to be here has to be. We all just need to be respectful in how we handle any withdrawal.

One thing that you have me thinking about though is how we handle killing off a character. It's a necessary part of d&d and I get that, but at the moment it is open to abuse if the GM is holding a grudge (not saying that is happening here; to my eyes Four, necro and banjo have been outstanding and completely objective GM's. But elsewhere in the forum we at least have some checks and balances on game mods. And I'm a little worried now we don't have those for d&d. I'll take opinions on this in the d&d discussion thread, but it's something I'll have to raise with Sully and the cmods.

sKeith

Guessing "I'm not locked in here with you...." is a typo for "I'm now locked in here with you....".

Either way, I took this as jest.

Necro

On character death, it's almost always due to general silliness on behalf of the player rather than a disgruntled GM, so I think it's probably ok tbh.

Baggly

sKeith wrote:

Either way, I took this as jest.

I did too tbf....but I'd rather the d&d folks got a chance to discuss the above ahead of any issues rather than after they happen. As I said I am not aware of any issues to date, so that's not what brought this up! Just me being proactive given the discussions in ww this weekend just gone!

sKeith

Well, as I'm able to make suggestions here, i will.
Not that my suggestions have to even be read, but because i can make suggestions.

If it twas me, I'd ask each of the previous GMs what way they think is an unacceptable way to exit a game. Then ask if they agree to have their opinions being shared here, if they agree, share a compilation of their opinions on what they all believe is acceptable, then put out what FGmods expect and then we work as a community to bridge the divide.

Baggly

Issue affects all players, not just GMs. Everyone gets a voice. If GMs want to pm me they can do, but we are an open sub forum, so I don't see why the discussion can't start in public.

The process you have suggested is interesting but has a couple of issues as I would see it. Firstly, if GMs don't agree, we still need feedback on the issue.

So we would be acting on no feedback or untransparent feedback.

The first case is problematic but we would manage, the second one, well that's no problem for me necessarily, as I'd know the feedback would be coming from GMs, but would you find that acceptable? Genuine question.

Necro

Meh, I'm no GM, just a gormless fool who tried to run a newbies game and then had to go on holidays leaving poor Banjo to cover for me

Fourier

Two thoughts

(a) A player suddenly leaving is not really a major problem in the party based games like D&D, Traveller, etc You just write an exit for somebody and they are gone. I don't see much of problem as it isn't a competitive game as such. The only case where it would be a problem might be a more focused game with one or two players where the person walked out, but even then I'd see it as between the players and GM, I don't know how official forum moderation would help the situation. More just those involved being understanding.

(b) In the case of a GM being an asshole (hasn't occurred here as Banjo and Necro are nice guys and I am an objective ocular voice of unvarnished truth that speaks from the higher plane of GM perfection) you can't really know in advance and if they are an asshole out to kill people, you're not going to want to play in their games again, I'm not sure what official action would achieve. Plus it would be rare in my experience for somebody to go to the effort of making a game and NPCs for them to then ruin their own game in such a way.

Baggly

I think i may not have represented my point as well as i may have wished Four. What you have said above in a) is true and no problem here from me. I think i was speaking to the fact that players are free to leave if they so wish! If you are confident you can cover the holes in any quick departure then thats grand. I still think the player giving the GM a heads up before they depart is the way to go. And i also feel that sudden departures need to be reported to forum moderation.

Serial departers are for Sully and myself to police, not the GMs here in the sub forum.

With regards to b), i wasnt really coming at it from the POV of 'what if we had a bad GM'.....that will become apparent quickly (if it were to happen, unlikely as it may be), and the GM wont be asked back to GM again, i should imagine.

I was coming at it from the POV that currently a GM could be totally within their rights in the context of the story to kill someone off, but if someone gets the hump and reports them, what evidence is there that the GM was acting within the context of the story, and not killing them off because they wanted to kill them off? Again, and i have to stress this, not talking about yourself (well known objective ocular voice of unvarnished truth that speaks from the higher plane of GM perfection), Necro or Banjo. But about any rogue player who may make things difficult for ye as GMs and, tbh, for the forum in general.

Fourier

Pter wrote: »

I think i may not have represented my point as well as i may have wished Four. What you have said above in a) is true and no problem here from me. I think i was speaking to the fact that players are free to leave if they so wish! If you are confident you can cover the holes in any quick departure then thats grand. I still think the player giving the GM a heads up before they depart is the way to go. And i also feel that sudden departures need to be reported to forum moderation.

Serial departers are for Sully and myself to police, not the GMs here in the sub forum.

I don't see a need to report people who depart. It's rare in my experience (people who suddenly depart literally without explanation don't tend to return to RPGs) or there is a valid reason, e.g. RL too busy, just not feeling the game.

Somebody who keeps signing up and leaving, could be reported, but I'd say it'd be rare. I myself wouldn't feel a need to report them as I would simply find it odd and probably stop accepting the sign ups after a while, i.e. it would solve itself.

Pter wrote: »

I was coming at it from the POV that currently a GM could be totally within their rights in the context of the story to kill someone off, but if someone gets the hump and reports them, what evidence is there that the GM was acting within the context of the story, and not killing them off because they wanted to kill them off?

It's a general rule in RPGs that you simply accept what the GM does (Golden Rule) and decide for yourself if you want to play with them given what they and their playstyle are like. Things beyond this have a long (Decades long, going back to Gary Gygax, David Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St Andre and Greg Stafford, original founders of the medium. They all notice this at their table) history of not working.

Let's say Banjo killed me in game and I reported him. My experience leads me to say that unless he personally insulted me Fourier in some way that comes under boards rules, any reporting by me that he killed me should be ignored.

What were you thinking along these lines?

EDIT: Originally said Rule Zero, meant the Golden Rule

Baggly

Fourier wrote: »

I don't see a need to report people who depart. It's rare in my experience (people who suddenly depart literally without explanation don't tend to return to RPGs) or there is a valid reason, e.g. RL too busy, just not feeling the game.

Somebody who keeps signing up and leaving, could be reported, but I'd say it'd be rare. I myself wouldn't feel a need to report them as I would simply find it odd and probably stop accepting the sign ups after a while, i.e. it would solve itself.

Ok so this is the same thing that is after coming up in WW. GMs are not allowed to turn away players where there is space for them in the game. The official line from boards is it is half backseat modding and half bullying. Mainly because its not a non-mods job to decide if people can or cant play (within reason, if someone isnt able for the level of the game we would include them elsewhere). Its something Sully and I are going over outselves with cmods, but as things stand (and i would hope it never comes up), you wouldnt be within your powers to refuse a player on the above terms. With the greatest amount of respect Four, boards hasnt appointed you a mod of this forum, so they dont want you or any non-mod modding it.

We have had people in WW tell us this is a deal breaker and thus they wont be game modding anymore....and thats why im bringing it up here now, before it becomes an issue. If this issue is getting discussed by forum mods (and it is), i need to represent the opinions of you and banjo and keith and everyone in D&D.

Fourier wrote: »

It's a general rule in RPGs that you simply accept what the GM does (Rule 0) and decide for yourself if you want to play with them given what they and their playstyle are like. Things beyond this have a long (Decades long, going back to Gary Gygax, David Arneson, Marc Miller, Ken St Andre and Greg Stafford, original founders of the medium. They all notice this at their table) history of not working.

Let's say Banjo killed me in game and I reported him. My experience leads me to say that unless he personally insulted me Fourier in some way that comes under boards rules, any reporting by me that he killed me should be ignored.

What were you thinking along these lines?

Im asking for opinions on how we can make oversight work. Because all it will take is one issue to arise and for admins to balk at the lack of oversight, and then say 'well if you cant play with oversight, why do we have the forum?'. Ive said it to others; ive seen fora closed down as retrospective action for not self regulating.

Boards wasnt designed for D&D and we know there are limitations in playing here. That being said its our home and in general they let us play. But how much slack would they give us with 'the GMs word just has to be accepted'? I dont know tbh. I wouldnt imagine a lot.

Baggly

Sorry i should add; if we have golden rules or a list of rules that need to be understood, we NEED to get them into a proper charter. We dont have one for D&D. We have a welcome message and an outdated list of games.

Fourier

Pter wrote: »

With the greatest amount of respect Four, boards hasnt appointed you a mod of this forum, so they dont want you or any non-mod modding it.

Is there a need for this type of phrasing?

You presented me with a very unlikely scenario, one I have never seen in all my years of doing this and then I made a guess at what I might do. I simply didn't know boards considers it half-modding. In that case I'd just keep accepting until it became unbearable and report it. However this is really getting into a 1 in 10000 players situation.

However the sentence quoted strikes me as strange. It makes me sound like I'm claiming some kind of power or something. It's simply a possible way of dealing with a very unlikely scenario, it turns out it is inconsistent with board's rules, but I really don't see what it adds to your response and makes me wary to continue this. I think this would have been fine:

Ok so this is the same thing that is after coming up in WW. GMs are not allowed to turn away players where there is space for them in the game. The official line from boards is it is half backseat modding and half bullying. Mainly because its not a non-mods job to decide if people can or cant play (within reason, if someone isnt able for the level of the game we would include them elsewhere). Its something Sully and I are going over outselves with cmods, but as things stand (and i would hope it never comes up), you wouldnt be within your powers to refuse a player on the above terms.

Baggly

Ok point taken. Apologies for the wording. I'm not trying to imply any wrongdoing or impropriety on your part.

Unfortunately it's the minority who will always ruin it for the majority. Most of the people in here won't need the system I'm talking about and hence we will never use it.

But someone will abuse the lack of a system and the results will be the forum is gone or restricted far beyond what I'm talking about.

Baggly

You don't have to continue the discussion if you don't feel comfortable four. I just think the discussion is better with your input. With everyone's input. The same questions are being asked elsewhere in FG so I want D&D to put forward their own perspective, as I don't want whats ok for ww to naturally be assumed to be ok for d&d. And to do that I need to sound it out with the people who would know (the members of d&d).

Necro

I think the current FG charter kinda covers the D&D forum. Obviously there might be changes coming to that gauging on this discussion but a lot of the WW rules are applicable to other Play by Post RPGs too. Werewolf, by design is also a play by post RPG.

Metagaming is probably frowned upon more strongly though in terms of the types of games played here.

Fourier

Pter wrote: »

Sorry i should add; if we have golden rules or a list of rules that need to be understood, we NEED to get them into a proper charter. We dont have one for D&D. We have a welcome message and an outdated list of games.

The Golden Rule is informal, not an actual rule as such. I more mean it as a quick reference to how RPGs tend to play out when surveyed as a whole.

Of course the full version of boards rules will not be compatible with the typical version of how the Golden Rule is seen in RPGs face to face. It's more a reference for the "ideal" for them, i.e. reporting or free complaining about the GM is often toxic to a game. In fact it's often so, even if the GM is bad. So it's just something to keep in mind if making a policy for RPGs.

Of course boards might simply require it to be dumped entirely and not even its spirit be maintained. I don't think that would be too bad, it might prevent certain kinds of games, but it's Board's rules first of course.