BIK on EVs.

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

with insurance, there must be an " insurable interest ", You typically cannot insure a vehicle owned by another legal entity as you are not the insurable entity

I am really said to hear such an experience user repeating that 'Insurable Interest' rubbish.

What law requires is the driver's cover for third party liability. In this case the insurable interest has nothing to do with the ownership of the vehicle driven: every person driving has insurable interest...

Sure - one shouldn't be able to establish a policy for damages to a vehicle he/she does not own. But there is no technical problem in allowing any person insuring themselves to drive any particular car (and such cover is indeed offered on the market - commonly known as 'driving other cars' extension, but it is only packaged with different covers).

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

I am really said to hear such an experience user repeating that 'Insurable Interest' rubbish.

What law requires is the driver's cover for third party liability. In this case the insurable interest has nothing to do with the ownership of the vehicle driven: every person driving has insurable interest...

Sure - one shouldn't be able to establish a policy for damages to a vehicle he/she does not own. But there is no technical problem in allowing any person insuring themselves to drive any particular car (and such cover is indeed offered on the market - commonly known as 'driving other cars' extension, but it is only packaged with different covers).

I never said anything about the law, I said that the issue of insurable interest is generally applied

Driving other cars, you will notice is restricted and limited , it does not invalidate what I said

My experience with dozens of company cars and private cars, is you will not get insurance in the same of the driver rather then then owner, even if then the policy is extended to cover other drivers

BUT , my experience is that while you will loose your NCB , you will still get a discount on the premium recognising your company car years. personally when I transferred from company to provate the effective rate for me went down as company car insurance is expensive

BoatMad

Originally Posted by Liberty Insurance
Yes, you can insure a vehicle registered in your own name or the name of your spouse, civil partner, parent, common law partner or a lease company. If the vehicle is registered to anyone else we cannot provide a quote.

yes but this provision is never extended to cars opened by a company

People suggesting they can own a company car and insure it in their own name ( or their spouses name ) are dreaming

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

I never said anything about the law, I said that the issue of insurable interest is generally applied

Driver always has insurable interest. Insurance companies prefer not to insure drivers without their own cars for their own reasons - but it has nothing to do with insurable interest. Please stop repeating it, because it is not correct.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Driver always has insurable interest. Insurance companies prefer not to insure drivers without their own cars for their own reasons - but it has nothing to do with insurable interest. Please stop repeating it, because it is not correct.

it is a basic requirement for all types of insurance that the person who buys a policy must have an insurable interest in the subject of the insurance.

Insurable interest is one of the foundations of insurance because, in its absence, insurance would be no different from gambling and (even if legal) would not constitute a binding agreement.

To the insurance company, an insurable interest is the basic reason for issuing a legal insurance cover, whilst – to an insured (or beneficiary) it gives the legal right to enforce an insurance claim.

An insurable interest means that the policy holder (or the beneficiary) must stand to suffer a direct, measurable financial loss if the event (against which the insurance cover was bought) does occur.


Insurance companies in Ireland apply the Insurable interest situation in motor insurance , even in the case of third party insurance , which arguably does not fall in the category of insurable interest


The fact remains after all this , you will not be quoted in Ireland as a private individual for cover on a company car

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

it is a basic requirement for all types of insurance that the person who buys a policy must have an insurable interest in the subject of the insurance. /.../

How many times do I need to repeat it? Driver always has insurable interest, regardless whose car she or he drives. If the driver crashes and makes any damage or causes injury, he or she is liable. So she or he would have suffered a substantial financial expense to cover those liabilities. In other words loss. Thus have insurable interest.

Please quit repeating that it is insurable interest (or lack of such) that prevents people from getting insured to drive someone else car. Because it is not.

Denisoftus

What insurance companies people use to insure a company car, not VAN or taxi? This proven to be problematic.

air

Just to be clear I posted those links purely to show that many companies allow spouses to insure cars registered in one another's names.
This in the context of maintaining 2 NCBs on a single shared vehicle by alternating the policy holder annually.
Note that while researching this I noted that many of the companies also have no issue if the vehicle is registered to a lease company.
Perhaps if your own company leases the car and the usage remains social domestic as before it may be viable to take out private motor insurance on it via this route.

Denisoftus

Leasing a car by own your company, oh man, this is a very grey area. I was wondering, if there have been any real cases?

lafors

Jaysus this thread was hard to read...I thought I ended up in an insurance forum at one stage!

Any back to BIK on EVs

A few simpler questions first.
Company will lease car for the employee from a fleet company up to the value of monthly amount (i.e. monthly lease cost).
The fleet company are giving a price of full list price, no deductions for grants etc.
Do the fleet company get reduction on price from any of the currently available grants?
This will help decide on cars available to employee.

Next,
From budget this year there is mention of 0% BIK on EVs.
As I can't find anything on the revenues site bar an infographic which says "Benefit-in-kind 0% for at least 3 years",
Does this actually mean 0%? Like not 0% on a certain amount?

Lastly,
The Home Charger Installation Grant, is this definitely available to the employee as they don't own the car?
Again it's an added cost if they had to pay themselves.

KCross

lafors wrote: »

Company will lease car for the employee from a fleet company up to the value of monthly amount (i.e. monthly lease cost).
The fleet company are giving a price of full list price, no deductions for grants etc.
Do the fleet company get reduction on price from any of the currently available grants?
This will help decide on cars available to employee.

Cant see why the fleet company couldnt/wouldnt get the grants too. I don't believe its restricted to private individuals.

lafors wrote: »

Next,
From budget this year there is mention of 0% BIK on EVs.
As I can't find anything on the revenues site bar an infographic which says "Benefit-in-kind 0% for at least 3 years",
Does this actually mean 0%? Like not 0% on a certain amount?

Its 0%, full stop.

lafors wrote: »

Lastly,
The Home Charger Installation Grant, is this definitely available to the employee as they don't own the car?
Again it's an added cost if they had to pay themselves.

The fine print of the home charger grant is not yet announced so no one can answer that question for you yet.

My guess, since it will also allow 2nd hand cars, is that it will be tied to your address and not to the car, so you would get it, not the fleet company.

Was on to a garage earlier about an EV. They quoted the full price, mentioning the 5k grant. I said I wanted to buy it through a company and they said the grant was 3.8k for businesses. Anyone heard of that before?

Update: found this link showing commercial purchases.

Denisoftus

Correct, its 3.8k for company purchases, so adjust for it.

BIK rate is a pretty good incentive so I shouldn't complain. Didn't realise though so may indeed need to do the numbers again...

Anyone get any further with first-time company insurance? I contacted a broker who were to get me quotes from KennCo and another company but can't get an answer from them (the insurers, not the brokers).

I'm probably pushing my luck here but...is there VAT on new cars (I've never bought one before!) and can it be reclaimed if purchased by a company?

In this case, the vehicle is for use by a director of the company but not essential to the business i.e. it's not a delivery van or part of sales fleet

Denisoftus

No, you cannot claim VAT on the type of a car, and purpose of use.

Ah I figured
Was just chancing my arm in case I'm missing something obvious.

Probably still worth doing if I can get an insurance quote - which is proving way more difficult than expected.

DM1983

Hi guys, 3 things I would like confirmed if possible.

1) Definition for evs for the 0% bik is based on motive power so i3 Rex should be fine I think?

2) Buying a second hand car should be fine too I think?

3) The car can be bought now but not made available for use until January 2018?

Water John

Needs to be pure EV, No little petrol engine.

DM1983

But the definition in the finance act states "a vehicle that derives its motive power exclusively from an electric motor"? For me, that would include i3 Rex?

Water John

Think this was discussed earlier. Ask Revenue, and they will say, no. The purpose is to, move transport away from fossil fuels. The second part of that is, for electricity generation to be renewable.

DM1983

Thanks for the reply. Very good to know if this is in fact the case. Perhaps if someone on here has already received a response from revenue confirming that i3 Rex would fall outside their definition, they could let me know.

Any comments on the other 2 queries in my original post?

KCross

Dmangan wrote: »

Hi guys, 3 things I would like confirmed if possible.

1) Definition for evs for the 0% bik is based on motive power so i3 Rex should be fine I think?

2) Buying a second hand car should be fine too I think?

3) The car can be bought now but not made available for use until January 2018?

1) I thought i3 Rex was applicable because the motive power comes exclusively from the battery as opposed to a hybrid where the ICE can drive the wheels too. I haven't seen an official response from revenue though.


I don't know on the other questions. Maybe fire off an email to revenue and share the answer with the rest of us.

It would be ridiculous because the intent is to move people away from Petrol and Diesel as their main source of power and electrics with 20 + Kwh have the potential to greatly reduce our reliance on these fuels and the likes of the i3 Rex will greatly reduce the need to use petrol or diesel and give people peace of mind of having a backup until the charging network improves and charge times reduce.

loopymum

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

air

loopymum wrote: »

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

Not if he is a sole trader, BIK only applies to employees so he would need to be a self employed company director to qualify.
He can however claim the business percentage of his motoring expenses as a sole trader.

goz83

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be ridiculous because the intent is to move people away from Petrol and Diesel as their main source of power and electrics with 20 + Kwh have the potential to greatly reduce our reliance on these fuels and the likes of the i3 Rex will greatly reduce the need to use petrol or diesel and give people peace of mind of having a backup until the charging network improves and charge times reduce.

They're not interested in our peace of mind. And while the i3 Rex does derive it's power from the motor, it will use fossil fuel from time to time. Why set the battery threshold at 20kWh? Why not 30, or 40, or 5? A 20+kWh might be your definition of a meaningful battery size for range (and by the way, I would agree with you here), but to others, it could be a lot less, or a lot more, depending on their driving needs and perceptions.

It needs to be clear cut. If the car holds old dinosaurs in it (not referring to you Mad_Lad ) then it shouldn't be included for the special rate BIK.

ELM327

goz83 wrote: »

They're not interested in our peace of mind. And while the i3 Rex does derive it's power from the motor, it will use fossil fuel from time to time. Why set the battery threshold at 20kWh? Why not 30, or 40, or 5? A 20+kWh might be your definition of a meaningful battery size for range (and by the way, I would agree with you here), but to others, it could be a lot less, or a lot more, depending on their driving needs and perceptions.

It needs to be clear cut. If the car holds old dinosaurs in it (not referring to you Mad_Lad ) then it shouldn't be included for the special rate BIK.

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

goz83

ELM327 wrote: »

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

I was only saying what the rules should be, not what the written form is.

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

There were murmorings that the nissan e-power note would qualify despite not having a plug, as it derives its power totally from an electric motor.

I don't think your interpretation of the rule lines up with the literal meaning (while it may be the spirit of the rule it is not the written form)

So the wording of the rule should be changed - to "any car that does not draw energy from any fossil fuel". Simple.

ELM327

grogi wrote: »

So the wording of the rule should be changed - to "any car that does not draw energy from any fossil fuel". Simple.

Should be?
It's only released already, you'd think they would have changed it before release if that was their intention.

DM1983

Submitted my query this morning so will feed back the response when I have it. FWIW I agree that it "should" be for pure bevs only but I would be very interested in the Rex if possible!

ELM327

Dmangan wrote: »

Submitted my query this morning so will feed back the response when I have it. FWIW I agree that it "should" be for pure bevs only but I would be very interested in the Rex if possible!

Response from whom, revenue?
They give different responses based on the day of the week/who you speak to, on anything thats not clear cut.
EG the BIK on work charging, two companies had two completely contradictory responses from revenue regarding BIK - one was taht it was due and one that it wasnt, there was a thread on it here.

The problem that if it's for pure BEV's only then the uptake will be slower if not a lot slower, the more people become aware of the state of the network and the EV range and the time to charge, then the possibility of having to wait 30 mins or more to even begin to charge will turn off a lot of people, a Rex like system overcomes this while still allowing significant EV driving.

Plug ins with 20 (30 ?)+ Kwh with ICE's that do not drive the wheels should only qualify.

It's increasingly likely that manufacturers are going to offer a lot more plug ins , hopefully with larger than the normal 7-10 Kwh battery and these will be subject to higher VRT in Ireland making them automatically far less attractive and making Diesel yet again the preferred option. The Government need to reconsider and eliminate VRT and BIK on electrics with larger batteries and again, with ICEs that do not drive the wheels.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem that if it's for pure BEV's only then the uptake will be slower if not a lot slower, the more people become aware of the state of the network and the EV range and the time to charge, then the possibility of having to wait 30 mins or more to even begin to charge will turn off a lot of people, a Rex like system overcomes this while still allowing significant EV driving.

Plug ins with 20 (30 ?)+ Kwh with ICE's that do not drive the wheels should only qualify.

It's increasingly likely that manufacturers are going to offer a lot more plug ins , hopefully with larger than the normal 7-10 Kwh battery and these will be subject to higher VRT in Ireland making them automatically far less attractive and making Diesel yet again the preferred option. The Government need to reconsider and eliminate VRT and BIK on electrics with larger batteries and again, with ICEs that do not drive the wheels.

Agreed. We need to differentiate between BEVx (like your i3) and compliance car PHEV. BEVx should be encouraged as it's really a BEV with a little generator to charge the battery on the odd occasion.

In CA, they use the BEVx classification as different from PHEV. BEVx are entitled to use the HOV lane whereas the compliance car PHEV are not.

IMO: VRT relief for full BEV only, 90% of the rebate for BEVx, 25% for PHEV, and charge a penalty on diesels of 25%.

People need to realise that diesel has had its day for domestic transport and we need to move away from it. PHEV is a stepping stone to full BEV and should also be encouraged, just less so than BEV/x as they are still running on fossil fuel.

A 25% increase on diesels is wishful thinking. + there are not many decent plug ins and still very few electric models to tempt people away from Diesel. We need much more electric models to choose from.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

A 25% increase on diesels is wishful thinking. + there are not many decent plug ins and still very few electric models to tempt people away from Diesel. We need much more electric models to choose from.

We need carrot and stick.
There's been plenty of carrot (VRT rebates, free fuel for 6 years+,etc) and still no takeup.

Therefore we need the stick approach. Hit people where it hurts, and enforce change, much like was done in 2008.

The issue though has always been the lack of choice, range and the Public charging network.

Free public charging will really only matter for those who depend heavily on the network which no doubt will deter these people from going electric.

So for now I really believe PHEV is the way to go , proper PHEV like the i3 and it's the only one that exists currently.

Manufacturers can produce these cars without the usual BS that no one wants to buy them, the range is too low etc because they'll have a backup.

It's a real shame Nissan did not offer a similar setup for the Leaf, BEV with the generator being optional, guarantee the generator option would have been the most popular option.

Most people will charge up as it's a lot cheaper to run on electricity and run the generator only when needed. Greatly minimising the use of petrol and being as convenient as possible for the driver.

Then some day we will have a proper network, banks of 8 or more chargers on site, 300+ Kw and 60+ Kwh batteries, until then, PHEV is a way forward ( for those that want this option ) generators could and should be optional letting the buyer choose what suits them best, but for now in Ireland PHEV will always be less attractive due to the extra VRT.

I'm not so sure I agree that the diesel should be more expensive just to match the cost of the PHEV, the PHEV should be as cheap as possible making it as attractive or better option to choose over diesel, I do agree that diesels should carry a higher premium but that's not going to happen in Ireland, my guess is that it's only when manufacturers start to ramp down Diesel sales within the next decade that people here will change and not before then.

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

The issue though has always been the lack of choice, range and the Public charging network.

Free public charging will really only matter for those who depend heavily on the network which no doubt will deter these people from going electric.

So for now I really believe PHEV is the way to go , proper PHEV like the i3 and it's the only one that exists currently.

Manufacturers can produce these cars without the usual BS that no one wants to buy them, the range is too low etc because they'll have a backup.

It's a real shame Nissan did not offer a similar setup for the Leaf, BEV with the generator being optional, guarantee the generator option would have been the most popular option.

Most people will charge up as it's a lot cheaper to run on electricity and run the generator only when needed. Greatly minimising the use of petrol and being as convenient as possible for the driver.

Then some day we will have a proper network, banks of 8 or more chargers on site, 300+ Kw and 60+ Kwh batteries, until then, PHEV is a way forward ( for those that want this option ) generators could and should be optional letting the buyer choose what suits them best, but for now in Ireland PHEV will always be less attractive due to the extra VRT.

I'm not so sure I agree that the diesel should be more expensive just to match the cost of the PHEV, the PHEV should be as cheap as possible making it as attractive or better option to choose over diesel, I do agree that diesels should carry a higher premium but that's not going to happen in Ireland, my guess is that it's only when manufacturers start to ramp down Diesel sales within the next decade that people here will change and not before then.

The i3 rex is not a PHEV, it is a BEVx.
Agreed that BEVx is the way forward as an interim measure but they are like training wheels for a childs bicycle - they serve their purpose until no longer needed.
Once we have cars with 60kWh batteries and a fit for purpose fast charge network (ubiquitous as petrol stations) then we should not need BEVx

PHEV are a tax dodge, they have their uses but their idea use case (town user with <10km commute) could and would be better served with a BEV.

Unfortunately BEVx is the only real way forward for now as far as I can see. But it's looking like it will be well after 2020 at this rate before we even have a proper flow and choice of BEVx vehicles.

Water John

Well the Leaf with a real world 300 miles is supposed to be available in 2019.
Unless your a Rep or away from home for a few days, all your charging will be at home and no need for the little engine on board.

Johnboy1951

Water John wrote: »

Well the Leaf with a real world 300 miles is supposed to be available in 2019.
Unless your a Rep or away from home for a few days, all your charging will be at home and no need for the little engine on board.

If that means 300 miles in Winter at motorway speeds, then yes it would be sufficient for most car drivers, IMO.
Hopefully that will be the case .....

That's all grand until people want to charge, you'll still need to charge on longer motorway trips, and indeed, it will be a long time before any EV can do 300 (miles) on a charge in winter with lots of motorway stints at 120-130 Kph then preheating etc.

Fast charging would want to be 300 Kw at that rate to satisfy the majority of ICE drivers.

At least my little engine allows me to continue with no charging if I so choose and I don't have to carry a huge battery either if I won't often use it.

Water John

Whatever you choose Mad Lad, your right always.

liamog

Have to agree with Water John. The 2019 crop of 300km full range cars are more than enough for the majority of motorists.

I'm glad we didn't make the mistake of incentivising PHEV's. 5 years ago they were a great piece of technology to bridge the high battery cost.
Now they are just a tax dodge.

Large battery cars are closer than many think. Prices have been dropping by around 20% per year.
Nissan were paying $800/kWh in 2011 for a 24kWh battery.
Chevy are supposedly paying $190/kWh in 2017

If you plot the battery drop using 80% of the previous year for a $8000 dollar battery, you begin to notice that the Leaf 30kWh, Ioniq 28kWh, Zoe 40kWh, Leaf II 40kWh, Leaf 60kWh rumored are hitting about the right time to maintain there price.
Extrapolating that out brings us 48kWh cars in 2018 (Kona/Stonic), 60kWh in 2019 (Leaf II 60kWh), and 75kWh cars due in 2020. All for the same $8000 battery.

So by 2020 new cars would have a range of 420km using a pessimistic 18kWh/100km efficiency.

Obviously this opens up the lower cost cars to being electrified using shorter ranges too.

loopymum

loopymum wrote: »

BIK and self-employed?
My OH is self employed and at present doesn't have a commercial vehicle so does anyone know can he buy himself an EV in January?

Sorry if I am drip feeding, just sussing it out. My OH is speaking to accountant soon as there is talk of converting to a company but not likely to happen for a few years as there are still loans being repaid.
The accountant has advised him to set up a company anyway in readiness and just file a 0 returns if he doesn't use it which is the likeliest scenario at the moment.

Thanks, my next question is a bit of lead on in that I am employed by my OH, could he buy me a BEV through his business?

I had reason to speak to my insurance company today and I was asking what the story was regarding insurance if my employer bought me a car like a bev bik-free and she said if the car was not registered in mine or OH name I couldn't insure it as I would not have an insurable interest. Does a car bought for me which would be a bik free bev be in my name or is that a big no no?

Water John

Once the Co operates the business and both you and OH take your earnings from that as employees then the co can buy the EV car, but the co owns it ans thus insures it, is my understanding.
That is where people seem to have difficulty in getting insurance quotes.
Very interested myself as just started running business through a co. We have a 30Kw Leaf personally which my OH drives ATM. Sadly, I'm still on diesel.

loopymum

Thanks Water John, if my oh doesn't form the company can he still purchase a bev bik free for an employee, eg, me?

grogi

loopymum wrote: »

I couldn't insure it as I would not have an insurable interest.

You don't insure a car. You insure yourself to drive that car - a fundamental difference. And you would have insurable interest in insuring yourself.