BIK on EVs.

drunkmonkey

Doh on me! The bik rate has to be based on some value in those charts.
This is a big step backwards.

cubix

Be interested how they work out what Co2 an EV produces, so either way as and from Jan 2023 EV's will incur BIK

Zenith74

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Doh on me! The bik rate has to be based on some value in those charts.
This is a big step backwards.

Yeah it’s a real shame. Essentially the BIK incentive is ending from 2023 onwards. There’s a small benefit to fully electric over petrol/diesel, especially for high mileage users, but the ‘no brainier’ 0% incentive is gone.

Unless they extend it closer to the time, which of course could easily happen.

boccy23

Reading the KPMG, the basic of it is that it is going to be much more expensive to have a Company Car after 2023 no matter which way you cut it. The increases for EV or ICE are significant. For those not doing the mileage to necessitate a company car, this may make it something to look long and hard at the so called benefit.

Zenith74

cubix wrote: »

Be interested how they work out what Co2 an EV produces, so either way as and from Jan 2023 EV's will incur BIK

EVs are considered to emit 0g/km for tax purposes and so are in the 0-59k/km category.

drunkmonkey

In my case I'd just swap back to a private car and go back to claiming expensives, it's my first company car since I bought a van years ago starting off. That won't be an option for a lot of company car drivers if the business is supplying the car so I can see them picking the 30k diesel over the 50k EV.

Zenith74

I don't know if Revenue have a way of telling how many people have availed of the 0% BIK scheme to determine it's effectiveness, do you have to declare to them an employee is actually using it?

I think it would be worth anybody who makes use of this scheme dropping their local Minister a note asking for the scheme to be extended. In our case we have 5-6 EVs in our company that 100% would have been petrol/diesel cars if not for this incentive, so it's working and the €50k cap has stopped it being just for execs.

jordan191

i'd say there will be quite a few people buying back their company EVs in december 2022 & then charging the company mileage

drunkmonkey

You could see an avalanche of used Tesla's hit the market. I'm planning on a used e hybrid panamera turismo if it happens, can't get planning permission off her indoors at the current prices but they should be in the money come 2023.
I'd buy one now if there was 0% bik.

jordan191

just get a trade in valuation off Tesla for example ( nice & low) & buy your tesla from the company, it would be much more tax efficient and totally legit, and claim the mileage tax free

innrain

So effectively from 2023 BIK for Evs would be 9% - 22.5% of the original price which includes VRT, VAT and before any grants.

Worst case scenario for a 45k car 22.5% is bit over 10k cash equivalent or about 5k tax. In 5 years that is probably what you'd pay to buy the car on your own. I think as employee you'd better negotiate for car allowance as that still lets you claim business mileage

There's a new document regarding claiming VAT

drunkmonkey

Going on those numbers above it brings Phev's into the fold, panamera hybrid for example (49 Co2), 120k new cost, 18% bik, cash equivalent €21,600, tax due €10,800.
Company pays all running costs. Am I working that out correctly?

KCross

Zenith74 wrote: »

EVs are considered to emit 0g/km for tax purposes and so are in the 0-59k/km category.

I never understood why they put EV's in the same CO2 bracket as hybrids for motor tax and now this new BIK scheme as well.

Surely there is a case for having a 0g CO2 bracket and then a 1-59g to cover the PHEV's and hybrids and then ICE above that.

If the policy is to encourage EV's they should have them in a tax band of their own.


The 2023 BIK scheme does seem to be at odds with their plan to get 1m EV's on the road by 2030 as company cars are a significant part of that. Most cars by then will be falling into the A(BEV and PHEV) and B(PHEV and hybrid) categories and there is only 2-4% difference there depending on mileage.... no incentive really.

It could all change between now and 2023 as well when they see what the uptake is. They might see the error of their ways!

Busman Paddy Lasty

KCross wrote: »

I never understood why they put EV's in the same CO2 bracket as hybrids for motor tax and now this new BIK scheme as well.

Surely there is a case for having a 0g CO2 bracket and then a 1-59g to cover the PHEV's and hybrids and then ICE above that.

If the policy is to encourage EV's they should have them in a tax band of their own.


The 2023 BIK scheme does seem to be at odds with their plan to get 1m EV's on the road by 2030 as company cars are a significant part of that. Most cars by then will be falling into the A(BEV and PHEV) and B(PHEV and hybrid) categories and there is only 2-4% difference there depending on mileage.... no incentive really.

It could all change between now and 2023 as well when they see what the uptake is. They might see the error of their ways!

It's all over the place. We cancelled an order for six EVs back in October 2019. Prior to that budget also planned to buy 12 more in 2020, pre Covid plan. All because the grant was pulled.

Nobody seems to be in charge. Minister for Finance/Revenue not on the same page as environment minister/ climate action plan.

innrain

So this is BIK from 2023



Where A is EV up to 59g/km CO2
While this is now


So basically at 35k km per year you will be as any car now, @40k+2 will be more expensive as now. It seems a move to disincentivize private use of company cars.

rocketspocket

innrain wrote: »

So this is BIK from 2023



Where A is EV up to 59g/km CO2
While this is now


So basically at 35k km per year you will be as any car now, @40k+2 will be more expensive as now. It seems a move to disincentivize private use of company cars.

There will be a lot of 2nd hand EVs coming to market in Dec 22 if this goes through..

wassie

I would expect changes to keep incentivising business to make the change, although not as generous as what it currently is. There are 2 budgets between now and 2023 and Ireland is still a long way behind meeting our 2030 emissions targets.

Do many plug in hybrids make it into category A?

innrain

I'd say so
A is up to 59gCO2/km inclusive
B is >59 <=99
C >99 <=139
D >139 <=179
E >179
https://www.seai.ie/grants/electric-vehicle-grants/grant-eligible-cars/
You have a list of cars qualifying for private grant. Each has the CO2 listed.

Fawk Nin

Apologies for the very basic question but I am still trying to get my head around this incentive. I am currently working as an independent contractor and as such, I am an employee of a company that I have set up.

Would this BIK incentive allow me to purchase a Kia e-Niro (OMV €41k) directly through the company without paying any tax on it?

Are there any other complications to consider?

Thanks.

Zenith74

Fawk Nin wrote: »

Apologies for the very basic question but I am still trying to get my head around this incentive. I am currently working as an independent contractor and as such, I am an employee of a company that I have set up.

Would this BIK incentive allow me to purchase a Kia e-Niro (OMV €41k) directly through the company without paying any tax on it?

Are there any other complications to consider?

There seems to be a grey area over when new entrants can use the incentive, the Revenue website says it ended December 2020 and if you contact Revenue they say the same thing. However as per the posts above, we're pretty sure this is a mistake and it is still open until it ends December 2022.

If it's still open, then yes you could buy the eNiro within the company and drive it for business and personal use without being liable for BIK until 2023.

Royale with Cheese

jordan191 wrote: »

just get a trade in valuation off Tesla for example ( nice & low) & buy your tesla from the company, it would be much more tax efficient and totally legit, and claim the mileage tax free

That's a great idea. I got a completely derisory offer for my Golf GTI off Tesla when I bought my Model 3 off them, will work out nicely this time round. Was going to see about trading the car in against a private purchase in 2023. Tesla told me this was no problem, they could treat it as two separate transactions and buy the car off me personally while selling the Model 3 to my company. Even if I do end up trading it, it will most likely work out far better to sell it to myself at Tesla's price first. Maybe even try and sell it privately.

wassie

Fawk Nin wrote: »

Apologies for the very basic question but I am still trying to get my head around this incentive. I am currently working as an independent contractor and as such, I am an employee of a company that I have set up.

Would this BIK incentive allow me to purchase a Kia e-Niro (OMV €41k) directly through the company without paying any tax on it?

Are there any other complications to consider?

Thanks.

Also remember if you are buying this through your business you will not be eligible for the SEAI €5000 grant.

Fawk Nin

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.

wassie

Should also mention that whilst a business is not eligible for the grant, it can take advantage of the Accelerated Capital Allowance (ACA).

Whilst getting advice from a forum such as this is useful, if you are considering this seriously, as always do not make any decisions until you have consulted an accountant for correct taxation.

boccy23

Surely if Revenue comes after me, I can quote all the advice here.

liamog

boccy23 wrote: »

Surely if Revenue comes after me, I can quote all the advice here.

So long as the only advice you quote is 'go consult an accountant'

Mc-BigE

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

That's a great idea. I got a completely derisory offer for my Golf GTI off Tesla when I bought my Model 3 off them, will work out nicely this time round. Was going to see about trading the car in against a private purchase in 2023. Tesla told me this was no problem, they could treat it as two separate transactions and buy the car off me personally while selling the Model 3 to my company. Even if I do end up trading it, it will most likely work out far better to sell it to myself at Tesla's price first. Maybe even try and sell it privately.

and if the revenue expect company car owners to pay 22.5% BIK when it was 0% there will be some that will get rid of their EV and go back to PHEV/ICE because the incentive is gone. thus dropping the trade-in price even more in Jan 2023.

total lack of forward thinking by the Revenue for EV adoption on ireland by 2030 and also investing in more public charging, why bother if the EV market sinks in 2023

very depressing

If the uptake hasn't been significant than the overall benefit for society is nothing to negligible. The only benefactors are those driving 0% BIK EVs....... in such a case there's no real point continuing with incentivising EVs as company cars.

liamog

Augeo wrote: »

If the uptake hasn't been significant than the overall benefit for society is nothing to negligible. The only benefactors are those driving 0% BIK EVs....... in such a case there's no real point continuing with incentivising EVs as company cars.

The whole point of incentivising EV company cars is to increase the number of EVs in the second hand market when they get replaced. Most company cars get replaced on a regular enough schedule.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

The whole point of incentivising EV company cars is to increase the number of EVs in the second hand market when they get replaced. Most company cars get replaced on a regular enough schedule.

Yes no doubt......... my point still stands.........

Augeo wrote: »

If the uptake hasn't been significant than the overall benefit for society is nothing to negligible...............

Mc-BigE

Augeo wrote: »

If the uptake hasn't been significant than the overall benefit for society is nothing to negligible. The only benefactors are those driving 0% BIK EVs....... in such a case there's no real point continuing with incentivising EVs as company cars.

A lot of EVs currently on the road are company cars, a lot of companies might be in the process of getting a new company car on 3 or 5 year finance.
if the company/employee are going to have to pay 22.5% BIK from Jan 2023 until the end of the finance agreement, then why bother even buying EV this year?

this all effects future second hand EV stocks, which effect the uptake of private buyers, public charging upgrades etc etc.

its a knock-on effect

Mc-BigE

Augeo wrote: »

The only benefactors are those driving 0% BIK EVs....... in such a case there's no real point continuing with incentivising EVs as company cars.

i disagree with this statement.
a company ICE car is probably diesel, so there is a saving on fuel/emissions if the EV is mainly charged at home/work.

Road tax is cheaper then most Diesel (not much on newer diesels)

then there are the companies that would have bought a small "car type" van.

5% BIK, 333 road tax , and yearly DOE.

Casati

KCross wrote: »

I never understood why they put EV's in the same CO2 bracket as hybrids for motor tax and now this new BIK scheme as well.

Surely there is a case for having a 0g CO2 bracket and then a 1-59g to cover the PHEV's and hybrids and then ICE above that.

If the policy is to encourage EV's they should have them in a tax band of their own.


The 2023 BIK scheme does seem to be at odds with their plan to get 1m EV's on the road by 2030 as company cars are a significant part of that. Most cars by then will be falling into the A(BEV and PHEV) and B(PHEV and hybrid) categories and there is only 2-4% difference there depending on mileage.... no incentive really.

It could all change between now and 2023 as well when they see what the uptake is. They might see the error of their ways!

Looks to me that it was designed by SIMI and their lobbying to govt is basically designed to not upset their dealers - who lets face it don't want EV's taking on more market share as it will impact the value of their used diesels and petrols. The manner in which E.V.'s are to be sold - i.e. often with fixed pricing is going to erode dealers margins so they will happily sell petrols/ diesel or mild hybrids all day lone

Overall its very disappointing - its madness to split bands due to emissions and then lump in E.V.'s with PHEV's as if they are the same thing. E.V.'s should have a band to their own with a more attractive BIK rate less than 15%.

As others have said, with E.V.'s generally having a higher RRP versus petrol/ diesel, then the BIK paid by an individual is likely to be the same or more as the diesel and unlike a typical company car they will likely be charging it using their own electricity rather than simply filling a car with diesel off a fuel card.

Mc-BigE

Mc-BigE wrote: »

i disagree with this statement.
a company ICE car is probably diesel, so there is a saving on fuel/emissions if the EV is mainly charged at home/work.

Road tax is cheaper then most Diesel (not much on newer diesels)

then there are the companies that would have bought a small "car type" van.

5% BIK, 333 road tax , and yearly DOE.

I don't think EVs have replaced many company ICE cars.
It's mainly proprietary directors getting themselves a company car when it was previously a non runner.

The employee pays the 5% BIk you mention so I'm not sure how you can use that to disagree with "The only benefactors are those driving 0% BIK EVs"
Not many companies handing out EVs to replace "small "car type" van" which cost €25k ish.

liamog

Augeo wrote: »

I don't think EVs have replaced many company ICE cars.
It's mainly proprietary directors getting themselves a company car when it was previously a non runner.

I see a good number of e-Golfs with lease plan plates on them, there's also a fair number of wrapped Kona EVs that I see on personal trips.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

I see a good number of e-Golfs with lease plan plates on them, there's also a fair number of wrapped Kona EVs that I see on personal trips.

Could you quantify those in numbers? The eGolf was a tiny seller all considered.
I see none of what you mention tbh and I'm out and about every day throughout the pandemic.

Casati

Augeo wrote: »

Could you quantify those in numbers? The eGolf was a tiny seller all considered.
I see none of what you mention tbh and I'm out and about every day throughout the pandemic.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/sisk-now-offering-more-ev-than-petrol-choices-to-company-car-users-1.4401407%3fmode=amp

One example here planning to have 100 ev’s starting with 10 ID3’s. I’m sure many other companies were under pressure to offer same by employees keen on avoiding BIK

In the U.K. where BIK is lowered for EV’s they have seen big adoption by companies

https://www.fleetalliance.co.uk/news/businesses-lead-charge-electric-vehicle-take/

liamog

Augeo wrote: »

Could you quantify those in numbers? The eGolf was a tiny seller all considered.
I see none of what you mention tbh and I'm out and about every day throughout the pandemic.

As of Dec '20 it was the 6th most common EV on Irish Roads with 515 sold, ahead of the Model S (492) and Niro (467), the Ioniq was ahead at (719).

VW sold a lot of e-Golfs in 2019 and 2020. As I say, most of the ones I spot have leaseplan on the plate. I think it did relatively well as non-executive company car.

Casati

Casati wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/sisk-now-offering-more-ev-than-petrol-choices-to-company-car-users-1.4401407%3fmode=amp

One example here planning to have 100 ev’s starting with 10 ID3’s. I’m sure many other companies were under pressure to offer same by employees keen on avoiding BIK

One of not many I reckon.

Casati wrote: »

In the U.K. where BIK is lowered for EV’s they have seen big adoption by companies

https://www.fleetalliance.co.uk/news/businesses-lead-charge-electric-vehicle-take/

Sure the UK encourage PHEV as company cars with low BIK also
That article is from 2016 and it's more pool stuff than actual company cars from the sounds of it "Amongst the companies setting the new standard, the London Fire Brigade runs a car fleet of 57 vehicles, 100% of which will become electric in 2016.

The University of Birmingham, meanwhile, operates 15 plug-in cars and vans, representing 16% of its total fleet"

liamog

liamog wrote: »

As of Dec '20 it was the 6th most common EV on Irish Roads with 515 sold, ahead of the Model S (492) and Niro (467), the Ioniq was ahead at (719).

VW sold a lot of e-Golfs in 2019 and 2020. As I say, most of the ones I spot have leaseplan on the plate. I think it did relatively well as non-executive company car.

To be fair 515 is a tiny amount of cars over a few years.
Let's not lose perspective.

When you say most of the ones you spot, you are talking about two handfuls maybe?

I'm on a large site at the moment (and visit several more regularly) and there's far more PHEV than BEV. The BEV are largely contractors who never had a company car before.

liamog

Augeo wrote: »

To be fair 515 is a tiny amount of cars over a few years.
Let's not lose perspective.

I don't take note of the reg plates, so they may be the same ones.
Given you theory is that 0% BIK incentive hasn't caused an significant uptake, you can't dismiss the evidence that shows an significant uptake in a particular model. The 0% BIK was introduced in budget 2018. Before that there were 18 e-Golfs. VW responded to the BIK rules by introducing the e-Golf Executive Edition. The next 3 years saw them sell 497. My theory (based on the number of e-Golfs I see with leaseplan plates) is that a significant number of these were sold as company cars, and that it clearly show's the BIK incentive significantly increased the number of sales.

You can't just dismiss a number because it doesn't agree with your premise. Without access to stats from company car providers its all conjecture anyway

* I'm excluding used imports this time, so the numbers may be a little off from earlier.

liamog

liamog wrote: »

............. you can't dismiss the evidence that shows an significant uptake in a particular model. .............r.

I reckon most of them went to proprietary directors who never had a company car below......... they are the main benefactors of the 0% BIK thing
Any e glof I see doesn't have leaseplan plates on it
Again I don't see that many of them as there's a tiny number of them out there.

Casati

Augeo wrote: »

To be fair 515 is a tiny amount of cars over a few years.
Let's not lose perspective.

When you say most of the ones you spot, you are talking about two handfuls maybe?

I'm on a large site at the moment (and visit several more regularly) and there's far more PHEV than BEV. The BEV are largely contractors who never had a company car before.

Do you think one site your one is representative of the whole country? What other stats do you have to support your view that’s it’s largely contractors?

No doubt some small business owners who never had company cars are in the mix but certainly larger fleets are not ignoring EV’s especially as their employees would be wanting the benefit of free BIK.

Casati

Casati wrote: »

Do you think one site your one is representative of the whole country? ............

... no but I mentioned I also visit several more
My observations are surely as valid as someone spotting lease plan plates on eGolf, why not question that "stat"

Name the larger fleets you speak of, in Ireland
I'm don't think articles from the UK dated 2016 are overly relevant tbh.

If the government reckoned the 0% BIK on EVs was beneficial I'm sure they'd be keeping it. It looks like they aren't.

Mc-BigE

Not sure if this video has been shared in the post before, but this is the UK system for BIK on EV and PHEVS and the UK government have said they will extend the incentive for a few more years. giving companies and employees a little bit of certainty (unlike here) that it will be around for a bit longer.

yes i agree that the 0% BIK system cant be around for ever, but jumping from 0% to 22.5% is far too big. it should be a much smaller jump and increases as the car gets older and closer to its finance finish date.

anyway here it is:
https://youtu.be/8H6HoFMGgnk

innrain

Some I know of and I see on the road
KN Networks -2019
https://www.kngroup.com/news/kn-circet-expands-electric-vehicle-fleet/

SISK- 2020
https://www.johnsiskandson.com/news/sisk-accelerating-investment-in-sustainable-evs-with-new-fleet

An post 2020
https://www.anpost.com/Media-Centre/News/Dublin-becomes-first-Capital-City-globally-with-ze

DLR CoCo
DPD 2019
https://www.electrive.com/2019/05/03/dpd-ireland-to-deliver-with-electric-vehicles/

You have to consider that a commercial bought car is 5k more expensive than a personal one in an already higher than normal price tag.

Keggers74

I swapped my car allowance for a model 3 last year, purely because the BIK exemption was there. If it wasn't there, I simply wouldn't have taken a company car and would have continued to take the allowance and keep my old car, because I simply wouldn't bear the BIK for 4 years on a regular ICE car lease (I do very minimal business miles, so am up for full whack BIK). I'm now left in the quandary re what to do in 2023 as my lease runs to Sept 2024, and to be honest if I had have expected the exemption not to be extended then I wouldn't have gone ahead with getting the Tesla. That would have left me still driving an ICE car and resulted in one less EV in the country.

Royale with Cheese

Mc-BigE wrote: »

and if the revenue expect company car owners to pay 22.5% BIK when it was 0% there will be some that will get rid of their EV and go back to PHEV/ICE because the incentive is gone. thus dropping the trade-in price even more in Jan 2023

I'll be one of them most likely. I'll possibly need something bigger/more practical by 2023 so would happily trade up to a Model Y if they extend the BIK scheme. It sounds like they won't though and I don't fancy shelling out that much of my personal money on a car, will be looking at 2-3 year old PHEV I'd say. I rarely leave the city so I'd still be able to do most of my miles on electric power.

kop-end

Guys, reading the thread and I notice a lot of talk about the government plans for 2023 BIK charges for EV, has anything concrete been mentioned by a minister or party of what the changes could be? I’m changing company vehicles in July 2021 and will likely be a 3 year lease so not sure if I would
Jump from ICE to EV for 18months benefit then to jump back to +\- 21% BIK for the final 18 months on a high value, €44k EV. Any insight is greatl appreciated 😀