Paradise papers

lightspeed

Well it looks there are some more leaks on them panama papers.

Rte news amongst other news sources reporting that Queen Elizabeth has £10 mil stashed in offshore accounts. All them unionist folk must be filled with such a sense of pride.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2017/1105/917669-paradise-papers/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/paradise-papers-how-the-rich-and-powerful-hide-their-money-and-avoid-tax-1.3280699?mode=amp


"The files contain information on the affairs of AIB’s offshore operation, some of Ireland’s wealthiest businessmen and most prominent businesses, celebrities from the arts world, and even an Irish priest who played a role in offshore holding companies linked to valuable assets. The data also contains new information on the role played by Ireland in structures that allow some of the world’s most profitable corporations significantly reduce their tax bills:

Im not sure if the irish independent has a piece on the above. Id love to hear Denis O"Brien''s opinion

Cheerful Spring

lightspeed wrote: »

Well it looks there are some more leaks on them panama papers.

Rte news amongst other news sources reporting that Queen Elizabeth has £10 mil stashed in offshore accounts. All them unionist folk must be filled with such a sense of pride.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2017/1105/917669-paradise-papers/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/paradise-papers-how-the-rich-and-powerful-hide-their-money-and-avoid-tax-1.3280699?mode=amp


"The files contain information on the affairs of AIB’s offshore operation, some of Ireland’s wealthiest businessmen and most prominent businesses, celebrities from the arts world, and even an Irish priest who played a role in offshore holding companies linked to valuable assets. The data also contains new information on the role played by Ireland in structures that allow some of the world’s most profitable corporations significantly reduce their tax bills:

Im not sure if the irish independent has a piece on the above. Id love to hear Denis O"Brien''s opinion

All rich people have offshore accounts not surprising they like avoiding paying taxes.

lightspeed

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

All rich people have offshore accounts not surprising they like avoiding paying taxes.

Maybe they all have the same accountant?:pac:

If tax evasion carried a mandatory lengthy custodial sentence maybe wealthy people would be more reluctant to avoid paying taxes.

We shouldnt have a system were wealthy people just pay some penalties along with taxes they should have originally paid.

Serious tax evasion should carry a minimum prison sentence of something akin to armed robbery or other criminal offences.

blinding

Aw Sh$t . Now I am going to be up all nigh moving my BMillions about

Kat1170

Bono's name crops up more than once according to Sky News.

Panrich

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

All rich people have offshore accounts not surprising they like avoiding paying taxes.

Ah yes. Let’s not talk about it.

Been reading a bit of this and the entitled seem to have no qualms in avoiding their responsibilities.

lightspeed

Kat1170 wrote: »

Bono's name crops up more than once according to Sky News.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1026589.shtml

Above article going back in 2013 talks how they use the same company im netherlands that helps the mega rich companies and people in Africa amongst others to transfer funds and avoid paying taxes in Africa. The article correctly points out the hypocrisy of the likes of Bono acting like an African messiah when comes to Live Aid etc.

Below from joe.ie talks about current leak. Something about registering a company in Malta to buy shopping centre in Lithuania to pay tax at just 5%. Not sure if anything illegal about that

I cant help but wonder why would he need to trying to penny pinch and make such investments. Like surely he and his family have enough for life. Why the necessary greed?

Does he and others with such wealth jump with joy thinking great now with the tax ive saved i can afford to buy that new car/boat/house i could already easily afford?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.joe.ie/amp/news/bono-paradise-papers-605602

smurgen

First thread on it i posted in dissapeared?🀔

MightyMandarin

Kat1170 wrote: »

Bono's name crops up more than once according to Sky News.

He invested millions in a lithuanian shopping centre via his maltese investment fund. Mr 'feed the poor' caught again dodging tax with his little offshore accounts. Prick.

YFlyer

Any word of Rothchilds?

s7ryf3925pivug

It's a separate leak to the Panama Papers; of almost as large a collection of data. There was another thread about it, but it appears to have been deleted for some reason.

The leak shows the Russian state funded an $850k investment in Jared Kushner's startup, as well as over a quarter of a billion combined investment in Facebook and Twitter.

blinding

Perhaps before U2 concerts Bono could give Tax avoidance guidance seminars . His and U2 tax affairs are probably the most interesting side to them .

Richard Hillman

QE2 doesnt have any "offshore" accounts. She is the monarch of Cayman and Bermuda. They are her islands to put her money into.

blinding

Richard Hillman wrote: »

QE2 doesnt have any "offshore" accounts. She is the monarch of Cayman and Bermuda. They are her islands to put her money into.

Perhaps Bono will get us to buy a few Islands for him . I wouldn’t want him falling below the status of a / the Queen .

Is that not Saint Sir Bono .

Bono should give a tax avoidance seminar before and after every concert . U2’s tax avoidance arrangements are by far the most interesting part of their Schtick .

Perhaps the revenue commissioners : “ Still Haven’t Found All That They Are Looking For ! "

Canis Lupus

The thing is though how many of these people are complicit in tax evasion and how many just get an accountant (possibly on the advice of other rich people/friends) and ask them to do whatever it is they do so they pay the least amount of tax?

Jawgap

lightspeed wrote: »

Maybe they all have the same accountant?:pac:

If tax evasion carried a mandatory lengthy custodial sentence maybe wealthy people would be more reluctant to avoid paying taxes.

We shouldnt have a system were wealthy people just pay some penalties along with taxes they should have originally paid.

Serious tax evasion should carry a minimum prison sentence of something akin to armed robbery or other criminal offences.

Avoidance (legal) is not evasion (illegal). There's nothing wrong with efficient tax planning, if governments want to clamp,down on it, change the rules and make earnings taxable where they are effectively earned instead of where they are notionally earned.

Saying that, it doesn't look good that Queenie's money generated a return by being invested, ultimately, in a company that screwed over poor people.

I'm not sure why Bono is in the headlines? For investing in a shopping centre?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

lightspeed wrote: »

Maybe they all have the same accountant?:pac:

If tax evasion carried a mandatory lengthy custodial sentence maybe wealthy people would be more reluctant to avoid paying taxes.

We shouldnt have a system were wealthy people just pay some penalties along with taxes they should have originally paid.

Serious tax evasion should carry a minimum prison sentence of something akin to armed robbery or other criminal offences.

Avoidance (legal) is not evasion (illegal). There's nothing wrong with efficient tax planning, if governments want to clamp,down on it, change the rules and make earnings taxable where they are effectively earned instead of where they are notionally earned.

Saying that, it doesn't look good that Queenie's money generated a return by being invested, ultimately, in a company that screwed over poor people.

I'm not sure why Bono is in ùthe headlines? For investing in a shopping centre?

Here there for being a hypocrite.lecturing the worlds government on their spending while simultaneously contributing as little as possible.

Ri_Nollaig

smurgen wrote: »

Here there for being a hypocrite.lecturing the worlds government on their spending while simultaneously contributing as little as possible.

This,
I personally see nothing wrong with anyone wanting to pay as little as possible tax, everyone would do the same if they could. Tax avoidance might be morally wrong but its not illegal assuming this is not tax evasion ofcourse.

But you can't have it both ways, telling governments to cancel 3rd world debt while trying your best to pay them as little tax as possible.

Wanderer78

Ri_Nollaig wrote:

But you can't have it both ways, telling governments to cancel 3rd world debt while trying your best to pay them as little tax as possible.

a lot of 3rd world debt is a bit of a scam in fairness, in fact so is most world debt.

Roger_007

Everyone pays as little tax as they can legally get away with. Personally I claim everything I can to reduce my tax bill. I am doing nothing illegal. People with far more money than me do exactly the same thing. It is just a question of scale.
If some people are doing something illegal, that is different. It's up to the law enforcement agencies to deal with that.
I can't help thinking that most people who condemn the practices of the wealthy off-shore investors would do exactly the same if they were in the same position.

Wanderer78

Roger_007 wrote: »

Everyone pays as little tax as they can legally get away with. Personally I claim everything I can to reduce my tax bill. I am doing nothing illegal. People with far more money than me do exactly the same thing. It is just a question of scale.
If some people are doing something illegal, that is different. It's up to the law enforcement agencies to deal with that.
I can't help thinking that most people who condemn the practices of the wealthy off-shore investors would do exactly the same if they were in the same position.

some goods points, but i suspect i ll never be in a position to test this, nor have i any interest in becoming wealthy. but of course id like to think i have a conscience.

Zebra3

Richard Hillman wrote: »

QE2 doesnt have any "offshore" accounts. She is the monarch of Cayman and Bermuda. They are her islands to put her money into.

“Her islands”? Had no idea she owned them.

Wanderer78

Zebra3 wrote: »

“Her islands”? Had no idea she owned them.

is she evading the property tax on that to?

bappelbe

Richard Hillman wrote: »

QE2 doesnt have any "offshore" accounts. She is the monarch of Cayman and Bermuda. They are her islands to put her money into.

she also doesn't pay taxes anyway - so there would be no tax liability to evade!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_the_British_royal_family#Taxation

lazybones32

Nothing illegal or immoral in tax avoidance. If i were a millionaire, i'd avail of every opportunity to prevent any Govt. from taking my money. Anyone reading this would do the same...

two wheels good

Paradise Papers is the correct title - not Panama Papers. Two different media reports.

Moderator please could you update the thread title. It might generate more interest and discussion.

Wanderer78

lazybones32 wrote: »

Nothing illegal or immoral in tax avoidance. If i were a millionaire, i'd avail of every opportunity to prevent any Govt. from taking my money. Anyone reading this would do the same...

hard to tell, but i suspect i wouldnt. id completely disagree with your statement, tax avoidance is immoral.

blinding

Why doesn’t Bono Preach Tax avoidance / possible evasion to ordinary people .

This may be helpful to ordinary people .

Wheeliebin30

Actually nothing illegal here.

Surprised a poll on the journal has 80% of people saying they would do the same.

The journal out of all places!

We like to get high and mighty in this Country about the wealthy, taxes etc.

Yet everyone would do the exact same thing.

c_man

So they used legal means to lower their tax? I don't think I know anyone who does different.

Jawgap

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hard to tell, but i suspect i wouldnt. id completely disagree with your statement, tax avoidance is immoral.

Are you a PAYE taxpayer and do you avail of any allowances?

blinding

Why doesn’t Bono Preach Tax avoidance / possible evasion to ordinary people .

This may be helpful to ordinary people .

jmayo

blinding wrote: »

Perhaps Bono will get us to buy a few Islands for him . I wouldn’t want him falling below the status of a / the Queen .

Is that not Saint Sir Bono .

Bono should give a tax avoidance seminar before and after every concert . U2’s tax avoidance arrangements are by far the most interesting part of their Schtick .

Perhaps the revenue commissioners : “ Still Haven’t Found All That They Are Looking For ! "

And here was me thinking you only disliked Michael O'Leary.

BTW O'Leary is one of the richest guys on Irish rich List that actually lives here and pays taxes here.

Most of the other ones are tax exiles of some sort.

lazybones32 wrote: »

Nothing illegal or immoral in tax avoidance. If i were a millionaire, i'd avail of every opportunity to prevent any Govt. from taking my money. Anyone reading this would do the same...

True enough, but it is the fecking arrogant hypocrisy engaged in by some, especially the aforementioned loud mouth bonehead.

It is one thing to avoid paying taxes, but to do it whilst lecturing others and the state where the taxes collected should be spend is a fooking greedy hypocritical thing to do.

c_man

jmayo wrote: »

It is one thing to avoid paying taxes, but to do it whilst lecturing others and the state where the taxes collected should be spend is a fooking greedy hypocritical thing to do.

Is it? So by avoiding taxes via legal means (which 99% of us do), we somehow null and void our right to have an opinion on what the government does with the tax take? Can I even vote, since I claim back all tax allowances and use my pension contributions in a way to avoid taxes?

seamus

The problem here is that you need to separate out the "really interesting stuff about potential dodgy deals" from "haha look at where this celebrity's money is going".

The latter is pointless, distracting nonsense. Bono, for example. He hands his money over to a Maltese investment firm to look after. He doesn't tell them to go buying up Lithuanian shopping centres, he doesn't even approve the purchases. It's just the way they spread out his investments. That's not news, it's not even interesting, it's how investment funds work.

But by reporting it as "interesting", it removes focus from the actually interesting and potentially malicious stuff, like the links between Russian and US oligarchs, as well as UK monarchs.

riffmongous

Jawgap wrote: »

Avoidance (legal) is not evasion (illegal). There's nothing wrong with efficient tax planning, if governments want to clamp,down on it, change the rules and make earnings taxable where they are effectively earned instead of where they are notionally earned.

Saying that, it doesn't look good that Queenie's money generated a return by being invested, ultimately, in a company that screwed over poor people.

What might cause a few headaches is that Theresa May came out against tax avoidance around a year ago

We also understand that tax is the price we pay for living in a civilised society. No individual or no business, however rich, has succeeded all on their own,” she said.

“It doesn’t matter to me whether you’re Amazon, Google or Starbucks, you have a duty to put something back, you have a debt to fellow citizens and you have a responsibility to pay your taxes

Ulysses Gaze

Typical that Left-Wing, Middle Class "Socialists" like Bono and Trudeau would be siphoning off money to avoid tax.

Whilst talking about the need to dig deep to be socially inclusive and save the world......

smurgen

Haha got to laugh at people comparing this to the tax credits of a paye worker! Your average joe has little left after expenses etc because tax is so high.some of the superweathy here are paying 5% and less on massive profit margins.they are nowhere near the breadline.talk about pure greed!

Wanderer78

might interest some here:

https://soundcloud.com/irishtimes-politics/inside-story-paradise-papers

Odhinn

blinding wrote: »

Why doesn’t Bono Preach Tax avoidance / possible evasion to ordinary people .

This may be helpful to ordinary people .

Ordinary people can't afford to do it.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Haha got to laugh at people comparing this to the tax credits of a paye worker! Your average joe has little left after expenses etc because tax is so high.some of the superweathy here are paying 5% and less on massive profit margins.they are nowhere near the breadline.talk about pure greed!

The question was, would you avoid tax if you could?

The answer is we all avoid tax as far as the law allows us. I claim for absolutely everything I can.....I buy stuff online from German sellers to get the lower VAT....I take part of my remuneration package in various tax-free compensations.....

......none of it is illegal.

Some people said they would never avoid tax, but if you claim tax allowances/credits you are putting some (albeit not very much income) beyond the taxman/woman.....the wealthy just do it on a larger scale.

There's nothing illegal in it. And it's easy to fix, just close the loopholes and apply tax at the point where earnings are effectively earned.

Dohnjoe

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hard to tell, but i suspect i wouldnt. id completely disagree with your statement, tax avoidance is immoral.

Tax avoidance is encouraged. You aren't supposed to pay more than you should.

Tax evasion is illegal.

The terms get mixed up and misused in cases like this. As for the Queen, it's highly unlikely she had personal knowledge of the inner workings of her personal estate investment management. It also doesn't seem so far that any part of it is illegal - it's just that the optics look bad (offshore holdings are never good for image)

thomasj

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41886608

No doubt it was resting in their account

Shurimgreat

From reading accounts so far, the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance seems at times paper thin, if not at all.

Some people go to extreme lengths to avoid paying tax, while also preaching to those of us who pay tax that we need to pay more to help the poor etc. Its sickening at this stage.

Shurimgreat

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Tax avoidance is encouraged. You aren't supposed to pay more than you should.

Tax evasion is illegal.

The terms get mixed up and misused in cases like this. As for the Queen, it's highly unlikely she had personal knowledge of the inner workings of her personal estate investment management. It also doesn't seem so far that any part of it is illegal - it's just that the optics look bad (offshore holdings are never good for image)

There's a lot of semantics going on. Shell companies, cells, lending property, etc etc. While it might be "legal", the morality of it is questionable. A lot of the time its an effort to hoodwink the taxman. Most of us can't afford highly paid accountants who use every loophole available to them. And they always seem to stay one step ahead of the legislation.

Wheeliebin30

smurgen wrote: »

Haha got to laugh at people comparing this to the tax credits of a paye worker! Your average joe has little left after expenses etc because tax is so high.some of the superweathy here are paying 5% and less on massive profit margins.they are nowhere near the breadline.talk about pure greed!

The top 5% high earners pay 80% of the tax intake in ireland.

seamus

Shurimgreat wrote: »

From reading accounts so far, the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance seems at times paper thin, if not at all.

The difference is that one is withholding tax that is legally due to be paid. The other is what everyone does on a daily basis.

By not handing over your entire earnings to the government, you are engaging in tax avoidance. By not paying VAT on your children's clothes or your food, you are engaging in tax avoidance.
By claiming your PAYE tax credits, you are engaging in tax avoidance.

There is no obligation, morally or ethical, to pay more than the amount of tax that is required of you by law.

What is the "moral" tax rate? How do you decide who's paying the "morally" appropriate amount of tax?

If it's possible for someone to earn lots and pay very little tax, then the person is not immoral; The law is broken.

A Little Pony

If I could I would do the same. The government would only waste it on illegal wars.

A Little Pony

Mrs Browns Boys actors at it too, how it became successful is still a mystery to most people, maybe investigate that.

Ulysses Gaze

A Little Pony wrote: »

Mrs Browns Boys actors at it too, how it became successful is still a mystery to most people, maybe investigate that.

“People are so ****ing dumb. Nobody reads anymore, nobody goes out and looks and explores the society and culture they were brought up in. People have attention spans of five seconds and as much depth as a glass of water.”

- David Bowie

Assetbacked

"Efficient tax planning" and "tax neutral" are floaty ways of hiding the lack of morality around such arrangements. A big issue with such arrangements not being illegal per se is that the so-called tax havens (Ireland, Caribbean Islands, Netherlands, Malta etc.) are influenced by those with the money to create a favourable regulatory environment to tax avoidance. Therefore, pointing to now laws being broken is hollow when the jurisdictions are mere facades for legitimacy. In our case, Ireland has cut the belly of the United States to capture some of the riches with the likes of Google, Apple, Facebook etc. Our laws are structured to allow these rich companies structure their affairs in a tax neutral way. In order to meaningfully address the problems highlighted by the leaks, the laws of these tax havens need to be addressed. How likely is it for an Irish politician to campaign against such companies using Ireland as a tax haven?