Paradise papers

lazybones32

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hard to tell, but i suspect i wouldnt. id completely disagree with your statement, tax avoidance is immoral.

Oh, you would! Your financial advisors/accountants would insist on it!

How do you think it is immoral?

Govts. incentivise people/corps. to hold their significant reserves in their Country and lower tax rates are a large part of that.
If you would prefer to pay €10m in taxation instead of €2m, i don't think you'd stay wealthy long. But you could be happy in the knowledge that the extra money you 'gifted' was squandered in this State....or has made some other people rich.

Dohnjoe

Shurimgreat wrote: »

A lot of the time its an effort to hoodwink the taxman. Most of us can't afford highly paid accountants who use every loophole available to them

Thankfully not, because there'd be a lot more people evading then. I know enough people who aren't "rich" who evade tax. I've just had to listen to someone giving out about this new leak and offshore accounts - and I know for a fact they have crypto-currency holdings they aren't paying capital gains on

I think the leaks are great and I firmly believe certain tax systems need to be overhauled and looked at more closely .. but there's also an unhealthy amount of "virtue signalling" and self righteous indignation going on about it too

Jawgap

Shurimgreat wrote: »

From reading accounts so far, the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance seems at times paper thin, if not at all.

Some people go to extreme lengths to avoid paying tax, while also preaching to those of us who pay tax that we need to pay more to help the poor etc. Its sickening at this stage.

It's chalk and cheese - evasion is illegal, avoidance isn't. You can even run your intended plans for avoidance past the tax authorities in advance to get their view on whether whatever it is you might be about to do is legal or not.

But, yes, I agree - if you are going to avoid tax you can't really go around preaching about people paying more tax.....personally, I'm with Warren Buffett on this one - if you don't want people using the loopholes then close them, but until then don't be surprised if people avail of them.

Ulysses Gaze

Assetbacked wrote: »

"Efficient tax planning" and "tax neutral" are floaty ways of hiding the lack of morality around such arrangements. A big issue with such arrangements not being illegal per se is that the so-called tax havens (Ireland, Caribbean Islands, Netherlands, Malta etc.) are influenced by those with the money to create a favourable regulatory environment to tax avoidance. Therefore, pointing to now laws being broken is hollow when the jurisdictions are mere facades for legitimacy. In our case, Ireland has cut the belly of the United States to capture some of the riches with the likes of Google, Apple, Facebook etc. Our laws are structured to allow these rich companies structure their affairs in a tax neutral way. In order to meaningfully address the problems highlighted by the leaks, the laws of these tax havens need to be addressed. How likely is it for an Irish politician to campaign against such companies using Ireland as a tax haven?

Unless you're talking PPB/Solidarity? Not likely,

And even I doubt they would, despite calls to nationalise Dell made by that lunatic Coppinger.

They would be cutting their own throats politically if they did.

jmayo

c_man wrote: »

Is it? So by avoiding taxes via legal means (which 99% of us do), we somehow null and void our right to have an opinion on what the government does with the tax take? Can I even vote, since I claim back all tax allowances and use my pension contributions in a way to avoid taxes?

Ah come off the bullshyte.

Yes you may claim for expenses and pension contributions, but that aint the same as funneling the money you make through multiple companies with a postbox in some tax haven or some country that has a lower tax rate.

Comparing someone making millions to PAYE workers, or indeed the vast majority of self employed workers, is fooking disingenuous and stretching the facts and you god damn know it well.

And also comparing allowing someone have the right to vote or hold a personal opinion with those getting up in public using their very well known high profile media access to campaign for taxpayers money to be spent in certain ways, not even for the benefit of the taxpayers that contributed, is also another false comparison.

But you go right ahead defending shysters and charlitans like bono.
I assume he will think of you the next time he is looking at the bank accounts for that Dutch based holding company of his. :rolleyes:

Jawgap

I think a lot of people would get some kick in the arse if they realised where their pension funds are invested

smurgen

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The top 5% high earners pay 80% of the tax intake in ireland.

Top 5% domiciled.if more of these offshore people had their funds onshore the government would need to tax us as much.

c_man

jmayo wrote: »

Yes you may claim for expenses and pension contributions, but that aint the same as funneling the money you make through multiple companies with a postbox in some tax haven or some country that has a lower tax rate.

Both perfectly legal methods for minimising tax contributions. The amount involved are different, the fundamentals are the same.

Comparing someone making millions to PAYE workers, or indeed the vast majority of self employed workers, is fooking disingenuous and stretching the facts and you god damn know it well.

At what income level does this moral take on things apply? How much would I have to earn before I shouldn't aim at minimising tax?

But you go right ahead defending shysters and charlitans like bono.
I assume he will think of you the next time he is looking at the bank accounts for that Dutch based holding company of his. :rolleyes:

I couldn't give a red sh!te what he thinks. You want real change then lobby your TDs/MEPs etc. Pointing at people/celebs and saying they shouldn't be doing x is nonsense. Sure the Guardian are involved in this leak and they're notorious tax dodgers. Don't hate the playa...

Spudman_20000

A Little Pony wrote: »

Mrs Browns Boys actors at it too, how it became successful is still a mystery to most people, maybe investigate that.

At least it made someone laugh, albeit all the way to the bank.

Ronaldinho

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The top 5% high earners pay 80% of the tax intake in ireland.

What year's data is that based on?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I think a lot of people would get some kick in the arse if they realised where their pension funds are invested

Spreading the blame are we?

jonon9

Well lets put it this way If I had won the Euro millions I certainly wouldnt be keeping in an Irish back account Id had most of the money in tax havens.

smurgen

jonon9 wrote: »

Well lets put it this way If I had won the Euro millions I certainly wouldnt be keeping in an Irish back account Id had most of the money in tax havens.

I wouldn't.the top 1% has people brain washed and fighting for crumbs.people blaming single mothers and migrants for the economic woes of the country yet they half billions flowing out of the economy. Now i'm a capitalist but this to me isn't true capitalism,more like crony capitalism.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I think a lot of people would get some kick in the arse if they realised where their pension funds are invested

Pension funds help society since they reduce the cost of old age to the state.hoarding billions/trillions hurt society.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Spreading the blame are we?

Not at all. Just pointing out the obvious. Any taxpayer, anyone invested in a fund, anyone with a pension pot, anyone with savings is likely involved in tax avoidance in the sense that some portion of their money is likely invested in vehicles, funds and debt that is perfectly legal (and tax efficient) but morally questionable.

The Paradise Papers name people who have enough money to invest in their own name in a more direct fashion, rather than as part of a larger collective.

server down

lazybones32 wrote: »

Nothing illegal or immoral in tax avoidance. If i were a millionaire, i'd avail of every opportunity to prevent any Govt. from taking my money. Anyone reading this would do the same...

Who knows. However do you not understand if the rich paid more you’d pay less?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Pension funds help society since they reduce the cost of old age to the state.hoarding billions/trillions hurt society.

So, no problem with CEOs etc getting six and seven figure pension top-ups?

And yes, pension funds are socially valuable but they're not held in cash they're invested. What do you think they are in?

tritriagain

server down wrote: »

Who knows. However do you not understand if the rich paid more you’d pay less?

I'm sure everyone realises that but you cannot blame individuals for paying as little tax as possible. It is upto governments and inland revenue to close the loops being abused. As the saying goes tax avoidance is legal but tax evasion is illegal.

server down

seamus wrote: »

The difference is that one is withholding tax that is legally due to be paid. The other is what everyone does on a daily basis.

By not handing over your entire earnings to the government, you are engaging in tax avoidance. By not paying VAT on your children's clothes or your food, you are engaging in tax avoidance.
By claiming your PAYE tax credits, you are engaging in tax avoidance.

There is no obligation, morally or ethical, to pay more than the amount of tax that is required of you by law.

What is the "moral" tax rate? How do you decide who's paying the "morally" appropriate amount of tax?

If it's possible for someone to earn lots and pay very little tax, then the person is not immoral; The law is broken.

Seriously how the fcuk can we be tax avoiding by not paying 100% tax if the tax rate is not 100%?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

server down

Presumably bono pays tax on any dividends from the cayman company.

Jawgap

server down wrote: »

Presumably bono pays tax on any dividends from the cayman company.

Depends where they're repatriated to.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

So, no problem with CEOs etc getting six and seven figure pension top-ups?

And yes, pension funds are socially valuable but they're not held in cash they're invested. What do you think they are in?

All sorts.i work in the industry by the way. I have an issue with excessive CEO compensation and believe renumeration should be tied into long term share price performance.
I'm not against people being rich,far from it but i do have a social conscience. If everyone paid a proportional amount of their income/profit we'd all pay alot less. Many hands make light lifting!

server down

Jawgap wrote: »

Depends where they're repatriated to.

No it doesn’t. It matters where he lives.

Beasty

smurgen wrote: »

Top 5% domiciled.if more of these offshore people had their funds onshore the government would need to tax us as much.

I'm not domiciled in Ireland - I've spent the vast majority of my life in the UK. Being non-domiciled under Irish tax rules means I only pay Irish tax on Irish source income/gains or offshore income/gains that are remitted to Ireland.

If I don't remit such income/gains (I have no need to bring the funds into Ireland) and therefore do not pay Irish tax on that income/gains, is that "Immoral tax planning"? I pay full Irish tax on all my Irish source income and gains - there are many ways I could avoid much of that tax (and PRSI as well as USC), but choose not to do so. If Ireland chose to tax my offshore income and gains I would probably choose to take my "business" back to the UK, therefore depriving Ireland of substantial (in my eyes anyway) amounts of tax.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

All sorts.i work in the industry by the way. I have an issue with excessive CEO compensation and believe renumeration should be tied into long term share price performance.
I'm not against people being rich,far from it but i do have a social conscience. If everyone paid a proportional amount of their income/profit we'd all pay alot less. Many hands make light lifting!

So have I.

I've also worked in the public service and the level of waste is staggering.....the State takes more than enough money to provide high levels social support. The problem isn't that we don't pay enough tax, the problem is too much of it is wasted.

I'd be all for closing off the loopholes, levying tax at the point of effective earning, even a flat tax, but if anyone thinks that somehow we'll pay less tax as a result of any of that, they're off their heads. It'll just be more waste, more grandiose vanity projects for politicians, and deeper troughs and pork barrels for them to poke their snouts into.

smurgen

server down wrote: »

Presumably bono pays tax on any dividends from the cayman company.

Leave Bono alone! He busks for homeless people!(while reducing his tax libility in ireland thereby cutting funding for addiction & social services)

Jawgap

server down wrote: »

No it doesn’t. It matters where he lives.

Really, what if the dividends are repatriated to a company in another jurisdiction, that advances a loan to him? Or it's loaned to another company that buys an asset he wants which is transferred to a trust of which he is the beneficiary?

Beasty

server down wrote: »

No it doesn’t. It matters where he lives.

Or more importantly where he is tax resident (he probably has multiple residences across a number of countries, but is likely to only have one country of tax residence)

If he's tax resident and domiciled in Ireland (should be the latter, suspect not the former) he should pay Irish tax on his worldwide income and gains, including dividends

The company though is a separate legal entity and subject to tax laws wherever it is tax resident or has business operations

lightspeed

seamus wrote: »

The problem here is that you need to separate out the "really interesting stuff about potential dodgy deals" from "haha look at where this celebrity's money is going".

The latter is pointless, distracting nonsense. Bono, for example. He hands his money over to a Maltese investment firm to look after. He doesn't tell them to go buying up Lithuanian shopping centres, he doesn't even approve the purchases. It's just the way they spread out his investments. That's not news, it's not even interesting, it's how investment funds work.

But by reporting it as "interesting", it removes focus from the actually interesting and potentially malicious stuff, like the links between Russian and US oligarchs, as well as UK monarchs.

Your right, Bono clearly tripped, fell and accidentally invested in a company in Malta to pay tax at 5%.

Bono is a fraud and whenever anyone criticises him the reaction is always that its typical irish begrudge.

Bono spouts out of him about helping the poor in Africa but also invests his money in the same company that helps facilitate widespread transfer of money from Africa for corrupt companies and individuals?

Considering this country alone gives over €750 million in foreign aid a year people should have a lot more contempt and anger towards Bono and remove the stupid rose tinted glasses.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0926/907717-irish-overseas-aid/


http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/05/africa-poor-stealing-wealth-170524063731884.html

"But there's also $203bn leaving the continent. Some of this is direct, such as $68bn in mainly dodged taxes. Essentially multinational corporations "steal" much of this - legally - by pretending they are really generating their wealth in tax havens. These so-called "illicit financial flows" amount to around 6.1 percent of the continent's entire gross domestic product (GDP) - or three times what Africa receives in aid".

I agree though that the reference to Bono in this particular leak is that he is just still a hypocrite and a fraud.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

server down

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That is not legal. And you would have to declare to the US too, as she is a citizen.

smurgen

Beasty wrote: »

I'm not domiciled in Ireland - I've spent the vast majority of my life in the UK. Being non-domiciled under Irish tax rules means I only pay Irish tax on Irish source income/gains or offshore income/gains that are remitted to Ireland.

If I don't remit such income/gains (I have no need to bring the funds into Ireland) and therefore do not pay Irish tax on that income/gains, is that "Immoral tax planning"? I pay full Irish tax on all my Irish source income and gains - there are many ways I could avoid much of that tax (and PRSI as well as USC), but choose not to do so. If Ireland chose to tax my offshore income and gains I would probably choose to take my "business" back to the UK, therefore depriving Ireland of substantial (in my eyes anyway) amounts of tax.

Good point. What we need is tax hamonization across multiple counties and to turn non compliant countries into pariah states.in the U.S you pay tax on foreign income or give up your passport.i would see this as being the best system. A passport should be earned.

MadYaker

MightyMandarin wrote: »

He invested millions in a lithuanian shopping centre via his maltese investment fund. Mr 'feed the poor' caught again dodging tax with his little offshore accounts. Prick.

He hands his money over to a Maltese investment fund and then they invest it on his behalf, he doesn't personally make those decisions, its done for him and it's not illegal as far as I know.

smurgen wrote: »

Leave Bono alone! He busks for homeless people!(while reducing his tax libility in ireland thereby cutting funding for addiction & social services)

Are you actually blaming Bono for the government cutting funding for social services? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

So have I.

I've also worked in the public service and the level of waste is staggering.....the State takes more than enough money to provide high levels social support. The problem isn't that we don't pay enough tax, the problem is too much of it is wasted.

I'd be all for closing off the loopholes, levying tax at the point of effective earning, even a flat tax, but if anyone thinks that somehow we'll pay less tax as a result of any of that, they're off their heads. It'll just be more waste, more grandiose vanity projects for politicians, and deeper troughs and pork barrels for them to poke their snouts into.

Just because a problem is large doesn't mean we should throw our hands up to the heavens. The corruption in public services should and could be tackled also.it's not an all or nothing exercise.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

server down

It's interesting how people argue that thinking "we'd all do it", or that the tiny tax breaks that middle income people can avail of, justifies the system.

Prior to the French Revolution the peasantry had an increasing tax burden, often to pay for the wars of the feudal classes including the help for the American war of Independence. The feudal classes themselves did not pay taxes. The law was tough on evaders ( i.e. the peasantry) but the feudalists were avoiders, in the sense that they rigged the system so as to pay no taxes. According to some here there is no immorality in that system.

At least this lead to a revolution, but I think that the French aristocracy missed a trick by not allowing some avoidance amongst the peasantry, so that the argument could be made that "era, we all do it". Could have saved their heads.

server down

MadYaker wrote: »

He hands his money over to a Maltese investment fund and then they invest it on his behalf, he doesn't personally make those decisions, its done for him and it's not illegal as far as I know.



Are you actually blaming Bono for the government cutting funding for social services? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

I wonder where you think the money for Government spending on social services comes from, though?

Sleeper12

Cheerful Spring wrote:

All rich people have offshore accounts not surprising they like avoiding paying taxes.

In fairness we all try to avoid paying as much tax as we can.

They haven't evaded paying tax. I'm not sure why it's even making the news

Anyone evading pay tax, hot money or criminals I'm interested in but a law abiding citizen paying all the taxes that they owe I don't see as a big news story

Jawgap

I've dual citizenship (US/Irish) and even though I live in Ireland I still have to file in the US or give up the US passport by either paying for that privilege or just never, ever travelling there again

smurgen

MadYaker wrote: »

He hands his money over to a Maltese investment fund and then they invest it on his behalf, he doesn't personally make those decisions, its done for him and it's not illegal as far as I know.



Are you actually blaming Bono for the government cutting funding for social services? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

Bono pays less tax.government receives less tax. Do the government have a)less money to fund social services or b) more money?

server down

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You talked about coming back to Ireland, presumably permanently, which would be domicile.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I've dual citizenship (US/Irish) and even though I live in Ireland I still have to file in the US or give up the US passport by either paying for that privilege or just never, ever travelling there again

You're better off here!I always wanted a greencard but after a few friends moved to the U.S I actually think we get a better deal in Ireland.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Just because a problem is large doesn't mean we should throw our hands up to the heavens. The corruption in public services should and could be tackled also.it's not an all or nothing exercise.

Indeed it should. But people keep voting in politicians who have no interest in changing anything.

server down

Beasty wrote: »

I'm not domiciled in Ireland - I've spent the vast majority of my life in the UK. Being non-domiciled under Irish tax rules means I only pay Irish tax on Irish source income/gains or offshore income/gains that are remitted to Ireland.

If I don't remit such income/gains (I have no need to bring the funds into Ireland) and therefore do not pay Irish tax on that income/gains, is that "Immoral tax planning"? I pay full Irish tax on all my Irish source income and gains - there are many ways I could avoid much of that tax (and PRSI as well as USC), but choose not to do so. If Ireland chose to tax my offshore income and gains I would probably choose to take my "business" back to the UK, therefore depriving Ireland of substantial (in my eyes anyway) amounts of tax.

You are paying tax on that income, I presume, to the UK. I mean nobody is arguing that someone domiciled in the UK should pay Irish tax, except on those exceptions, like rent, where it is taken at source.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

You're better off here!I always wanted a greencard but after a few friends moved to the U.S I actually think we get a better deal in Ireland.

It's academic.....essentially if I pay less tax here than I otherwise would've paid in the US I've to give them the difference (it's more complex than that, but that's the basic premise)......but all things considered, Ireland is the better location.....filing is certainly a lot easier here

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jawgap

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As long as I pay more tax here than I would've in the US. Plus I still have to pay a CPA to help with the filing.