Paradise papers

Jawgap

Shurimgreat wrote: »

We're not going to agree on this its clear. Corporation tax is one of those divisive topics that few people agree on.

On one side you have those who are basically of the view that they don't care if Apple never paid a red cent or as near to it as makes no odds in corporation tax as long as they employ people in Ireland.

On the other, some people myself included believe Apple should pay a minimum and reasonable amount of corporation tax, roughly 5% would be my view.

My main point is we shouldn't allow our nation and sovereignty to be ridden roughshod by large corporates who base their European HQs here in the hopes of paying negligible amounts of tax. On the one hand we have people whinging about U2 and the stars of Mrs. Brown's Boys avoiding tax and on the other a lot of people are ok with the large corporates doing the same.

As a nation we are better than that. But anyways, like I said we aren't going to agree and rather than continue around in circles I'm going to check out of this thread. People know my views from my previous posts.

Would you feel better if they cleared off to France and paid a hard 30% there? If we didn't compete on tax, what would be the basis for our competition for FDI (and please don't cite all that guff about a young, educated workforce - there are countries in the EU with better educated workforces and can offer much better qol than we can).

Indeed when you asked me:

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Well what's your suggestion on how these companies can pay a reasonable amount of corporation tax?

....I gave an honest, and somewhat detailed (but as it turned out deficient) answer - so why don't you answer your own question? How are you going to get that 5% from Apple, Google, Facebook and Amazon?

And our sovereignty isn't being ridden over - we are a republic and we elect people to make decisions on our behalf. Those people made a choice - if we don't like it we can elect in a different crowd to take a different tack.

And the 'nation' had no say in it, the state did.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

Would you feel better if they cleared off to France and paid a hard 30% there? If we didn't compete on tax, what would be the basis for our competition for FDI (and please don't cite all that guff about a young, educated workforce - there are countries in the EU with better educated workforces and can offer much better qol than we can).

Indeed when you asked me:



....I gave an honest, and somewhat detailed (but as it turned out deficient) answer - so why don't you answer your own question? How are you going to get that 5% from Apple, Google, Facebook and Amazon?

And our sovereignty isn't being ridden over - we are a republic and we elect people to make decisions on our behalf. Those people made a choice - if we don't like it we can elect in a different crowd to take a different tack.

And the 'nation' had no say in it, the state did.

We have a better educated workforce,we are more produtive than France or Germany and we have a higher proportion of english speakers.
Switzerland has moved from an economy based around banking and benefitted greatly from it.in recent years they have a push towards specilized areas and are contstantly rolling back the reliance and trying to fight the image of offshore tax haven.
Switzerland was a poor region historically and had famines regularly in the 19th century.they established themselves as a stable banking centre during the world wars and have maintained that reputation.that have also devolped other industries using the weath from the service industries.there chemical,pharma and consumer products companies are some of the biggest in the world.
We need to ensure we are making the best of the money we are taking in from the current situation with MNC's and use it to foster grown in domestic companies and try to reduce our reliace on foreign MNC's.
At the end of the day the majority of our employement is from SME's and tax take also. These are the companies we should be encouraging and offering tax breaks to.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

We have a better educated workforce,we are more produtive than France or Germany and we have a higher proportion of english speakers.
Switzerland has moved from an economy based around banking and benefitted greatly from it.in recent years they have a push towards specilized areas and are contstantly rolling back the reliance and trying to fight the image of offshore tax haven.
Switzerland was a poor region historically and had famines regularly in the 19th century.they established themselves as a stable banking centre during the world wars and have maintained that reputation.that have also devolped other industries using the weath from the service industries.there chemical,pharma and consumer products companies are some of the biggest in the world.
We need to ensure we are making the best of the money we are taking in from the current situation with MNC's and use it to foster grown in domestic companies and try to reduce our reliace on foreign MNC's.
At the end of the day the majority of our employement is from SME's and tax take also. These are the companies we should be encouraging and offering tax breaks to.

No, we have workers with more third level quals.......that doesn't mean 'better educated'

We outperform nearly every country on worker productivity but only on a GDP/Hr basis because the GDP of the country is skewed. Base performance on GNI and we're still ahead of France and Germany, but not by much, and we're comparable to Belgium and Denmark......using your metric GDP/hr, Luxembourg trumps us which probably shows the value of that metric (Source: OECD Compendium of Productivity Indicators 2017).

And yes, as always the majority of people have always been employed in the SME sector, but your aggregating 3 categories of enterprise based on size (micro, small and medium sized enterprises) and only considering employment.

Teasing it out......Micro-enterprises employ about 26.5% of persons engaged in the business economy and other small enterprises a further 22.5%. Medium sized enterprises account for about 18.9% of total persons engaged.

Large enterprises account for only 0.3% of all enterprises but employ approx 32.0% of total persons engaged (Source: CSO, 2012)

Looking beyond employment, to turnover and GVA, SMEs account for just over half of total turnover in the business economy. This amounted to just over €168 billion for SMEs compared to almost €166.3 billion for large enterprises in 2012. Micro enterprises accounted for 11.3% of total turnover, other small enterprises accounted for 18.0% and medium sized enterprises accounted for 20.9%.

The CSO also found that foreign-owned SMEs generated significant amounts of GVA given the number of persons engaged in these enterprises. GVA per person engaged in foreign-owned SMEs which were engaged in international trade was under €169,100.

The figure for foreign-owned SMEs that were solely engaged in the domestic economy was over €131,400. The equivalent figures for Irish-owned SMEs were much lower compared to foreign-owned SMEs at over €55,300 (engaged in international trade) and almost €30,500 (engaged solely with the domestic economy).

And SMEs get plenty of support to set up and get going.....some financial and loads of non-financial supports. A big chunk of my previous job was assisting start-ups with non-financial support.......or put it this way, since going private I doubt many start-ups could afford to retain me over more than a few days, but when I was in the PS they got my undivided attention and the benefit of the not-inconsiderable-resources of the agency I worked for free, a service we never extended to MNCs, figuring they could (and should) pay for them.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

No, we have workers with more third level quals.......that doesn't mean 'better educated'

We outperform nearly every country on worker productivity but only on a GDP/Hr basis because the GDP of the country is skewed. Base performance on GNI and we're still ahead of France and Germany, but not by much, and we're comparable to Belgium and Denmark......using your metric GDP/hr, Luxembourg trumps us which probably shows the value of that metric (Source: OECD Compendium of Productivity Indicators 2017).

And yes, as always the majority of people have always been employed in the SME sector, but your aggregating 3 categories of enterprise based on size (micro, small and medium sized enterprises) and only considering employment.

Teasing it out......Micro-enterprises employ about 26.5% of persons engaged in the business economy and other small enterprises a further 22.5%. Medium sized enterprises account for about 18.9% of total persons engaged.

Large enterprises account for only 0.3% of all enterprises but employ approx 32.0% of total persons engaged (Source: CSO, 2012)

Looking beyond employment, to turnover and GVA, SMEs account for just over half of total turnover in the business economy. This amounted to just over €168 billion for SMEs compared to almost €166.3 billion for large enterprises in 2012. Micro enterprises accounted for 11.3% of total turnover, other small enterprises accounted for 18.0% and medium sized enterprises accounted for 20.9%.

The CSO also found that foreign-owned SMEs generated significant amounts of GVA given the number of persons engaged in these enterprises. GVA per person engaged in foreign-owned SMEs which were engaged in international trade was under €169,100.

The figure for foreign-owned SMEs that were solely engaged in the domestic economy was over €131,400. The equivalent figures for Irish-owned SMEs were much lower compared to foreign-owned SMEs at over €55,300 (engaged in international trade) and almost €30,500 (engaged solely with the domestic economy).

And SMEs get plenty of support to set up and get going.....some financial and loads of non-financial supports. A big chunk of my previous job was assisting start-ups with non-financial support.......or put it this way, since going private I doubt many start-ups could afford to retain me over more than a few days, but when I was in the PS they got my undivided attention and the benefit of the not-inconsiderable-resources of the agency I worked for free, a service we never extended to MNCs, figuring they could (and should) pay for them.

So you agree we're more productive that our European neighbours?
As regards eduction our seondary students rank among the best in europe, we have the highest proportion of third level students enroled in maths,sciences and computing. It is our adults that let us down education as we have lower numbers of adult literacy and computer literacy than other E.U countries which should improve in years to come.
SME's in this country need all the help they can get.small business owners can't even avail social welfare in mant cases if their businesses fail. That's before you can start to take about other disadvantages they face in the face of international competition.
I have a bleak view of the future if we leave American multinations continue to operate here on a semi regulatory fashion paying minimum taxes.if you look at what's coming down the line with the likes of amazon going into the grocery business irish domestic retailers are going to face ever increasing competition and markets are going to be dominated by fewer companies.i believe this minimal tax situation gives these large companies a distict advantage over our own.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

So you agree we're more productive that our European neighbours?

Marginally yes, we're ahead of some of our fellow EU member states, on a par with others and behind one or two.

smurgen wrote: »

As regards eduction our seondary students rank among the best in europe, we have the highest proportion of third level students enroled in maths,sciences and computing.

How many Irish universities are genuinely world leading? Having truckloads enrolled in courses in mediocre universities is meaningless. Also, the maths and science courses we teach are far behind what gets taught elsewhere........or put it this way, my original qual was a PhD in a scientific discipline from a leading Irish university......then I went to the UK and Germany to work doing applied research and found out just how it compared (not well).......we have unis in Ireland that do some decent research, but we've no decent research-led university.

smurgen wrote: »

It is our adults that let us down education as we have lower numbers of adult literacy and computer literacy than other E.U countries which should improve in years to come.

Probably says all we need to know about the education system......

smurgen wrote: »

SME's in this country need all the help they can get.small business owners can't even avail social welfare in mant cases if their businesses fail. That's before you can start to take about other disadvantages they face in the face of international competition.

Well you're changing tack, SMEs are critically important to the economic wellbeing of the country, especially beyond Dublin, Cork, Galway & Limerick....but what you're now talking about is how we deal with business failure as an end point of a venture, and I agree we don't make failing easy.....but we making setting up easy.

smurgen wrote: »

I have a bleak view of the future if we leave American multinations continue to operate here on a semi regulatory fashion paying minimum taxes.if you look at what's coming down the line with the likes of amazon going into the grocery business irish domestic retailers are going to face ever increasing competition and markets are going to be dominated by fewer companies.i believe this minimal tax situation gives these large companies a distict advantage over our own.

I'd be more optimistic.......inside those MNCs are people who have ideas, and they'll take them and turn them into viable businesses when they leave.

And if anything, especially in relation to food, the trend is towards regionalisation within the country, peer-to-peer transactions and growing niches......and given the way certain Irish retailers have treated their workers I'm not sure they deserve protection......btw, do you think Dunnes as an Irish retailer should publish its accounts? What about their avoidance efforts in looking to have certain loans categorised in a way that allows them to be deducted from profits before the corporation tax is calculated?

Finally, I'm old enough to remember the 1980s - things are unimaginably better now.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

Marginally yes, we're ahead of some of our fellow EU member states, on a par with others and behind one or two.



How many Irish universities are genuinely world leading? Having truckloads enrolled in courses in mediocre universities is meaningless. Also, the maths and science courses we teach are far behind what gets taught elsewhere........or put it this way, my original qual was a PhD in a scientific discipline from a leading Irish university......then I went to the UK and Germany to work doing applied research and found out just how it compared (not well).......we have unis in Ireland that do some decent research, but we've no decent research-led university.




Probably says all we need to know about the education system......



Well you're changing tack, SMEs are critically important to the economic wellbeing of the country, especially beyond Dublin, Cork, Galway & Limerick....but what you're now talking about is how we deal with business failure as an end point of a venture, and I agree we don't make failing easy.....but we making setting up easy.



I'd be more optimistic.......inside those MNCs are people who have ideas, and they'll take them and turn them into viable businesses when they leave.

And if anything, especially in relation to food, the trend is towards regionalisation within the country, peer-to-peer transactions and growing niches......and given the way certain Irish retailers have treated their workers I'm not sure they deserve protection......btw, do you think Dunnes as an Irish retailer should publish its accounts? What about their avoidance efforts in looking to have certain loans categorised in a way that allows them to be deducted from profits before the corporation tax is calculated?

Finally, I'm old enough to remember the 1980s - things are unimaginably better now.

How am I changing tack?the reason i bring business failure into it is because it's a massive disinsentive to starting from the outset.why set out on a risky venture, have to beg like oliver twist in the local dole office and join the back of the employment queue when you can join a multinational and have a nice pension with minimal risk involved?

Funny you should mention Dunnes.my mother is a manager there. She started there after being made redundant from an american electronic mamufacturing multinational in the early 90's.they moved to czech republic for the cheap labour. She's treated very well by her peers and loves the job.hates issues like how they roster etc but genuinely loves the comraderie of the shop.it's one of the oldest dunnes in ireland. As regards their behaviour it has been deplorable but as far as i am aware they got nailed a few times for actual tax evasion.they have very sharp practices but then i think it's how that industry operates. Now if only foreign MNCs like apple/google/amazon we persued with the same passion as dunnes were we wouldn't be defending ourselves in the ECJ.
As regards education i think you're not thinking back to how far we've come.ireland's economic prosperity has only been around for about 20/25 years now.this filters into the notion of our older generation being less educated.education was simply not a priority.it was not common for people to go to third level. Our third level institutions have been around a long time but have only ran on proper big scales for a number of years now.it will take years for our attitudes for 3rd level education to refine.

"Having truckloads enrolled in courses in mediocre universities is meaningless" that's an interesting quote. Tell me should we just wrap them all up? Shut the doors?for someone as highly educated you seem to have a lack of appreciation for long term effort.

smurgen

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Companies will never pay a reasonable amount of corporation tax.

Anyone that thinks they can be forced to is extremely niavie and has no idea how corporation tax actually works.

Any company can simply incorporate their head office in a jurisdiction that has no tax and hive out subs.

The Tech and Pharma industries brought Ireland from a backwater in the 1980s to a first world country in 30 years.

People need to get a grip and stop biting the hand that feeds us.

These companies bring employment and well paid jobs. That funds secondary industries catering for these well paid jobs and disposable income. Ireland makes it in VAT and employment taxes.

They will never pay corporate tax. Ask Donald Trump how its going for him with his US companies.

Companies exists solely for profit and are mobile. You cannot use morals here.

Wait you seriously think Donald trump with his cabinet of CEO's from socially conscious companies such as ExxonMobil and Goldman Sachs want to seriously and sincerely tackle the corporate tax issue?

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

How am I changing tack?the reason i bring business failure into it is because it's a massive disinsentive to starting from the outset.why set out on a risky venture, have to beg like oliver twist in the local dole office and join the back of the employment queue when you can join a multinational and have a nice pension with minimal risk involved?

That's not how entrepreneurs think. And we were talking about set up supports, that's why shifting to the end point was a change.

smurgen wrote: »

Funny you should mention Dunnes.my mother is a manager there. She started there after being made redundant from an american electronic mamufacturing multinational in the early 90's.they moved to czech republic for the cheap labour. She's treated very well by her peers and loves the job.hates issues like how they roster etc but genuinely loves the comraderie of the shop.it's one of the oldest dunnes in ireland. As regards their behaviour it has been deplorable but as far as i am aware they got nailed a few times for actual tax evasion.they have very sharp practices but then i think it's how that industry operates. Now if only foreign MNCs like apple/google/amazon we persued with the same passion as dunnes were we wouldn't be defending ourselves in the ECJ.

you keep accusing companies of tax evasion......are you ever going to link to a source that supports these statements?

How do you know MNCs aren't audited with the same rigour as Dunne's or indeed that their 'sharp' practices don't allow them to avoid tax to the same degree?

Glad it worked out for your Mam.

smurgen wrote: »

As regards education i think you're not thinking back to how far we've come.ireland's economic prosperity has only been around for about 20/25 years now.this filters into the notion of our older generation being less educated.education was simply not a priority.it was not common for people to go to third level. Our third level institutions have been around a long time but have only ran on proper big scales for a number of years now.it will take years for our attitudes for 3rd level education to refine.

"Having truckloads enrolled in courses in mediocre universities is meaningless" that's an interesting quote. Tell me should we just wrap them all up? Shut the doors?for someone as highly educated you seem to have a lack of appreciation for long term effort.

Actually, my view is that we've gone backwards in terms of education quality. We now prioritise quantity over quality when it comes to graduates, and as grade inflation shows it's getting easier. The system is good enough, but is not as good as the PR suggests.

What would I do? Simples.....follow the Swiss model.....I'm a huge believer in the power of education, but 'third level' doesn't necessarily mean university, and we have an obsession with universities to our detriment.

I'd also pick a uni and re-configure it to be our own research-led institution. Everything we have is pretty much teaching-led at the moment.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

That's not how entrepreneurs think. And we were talking about set up supports, that's why shifting to the end point was a change.



you keep accusing companies of tax evasion......are you ever going to link to a source that supports these statements?

How do you know MNCs aren't audited with the same rigour as Dunne's or indeed that their 'sharp' practices don't allow them to avoid tax to the same degree?

Glad it worked out for your Mam.



Actually, my view is that we've gone backwards in terms of education quality. We now prioritise quantity over quality when it comes to graduates, and as grade inflation shows it's getting easier. The system is good enough, but is not as good as the PR suggests.

What would I do? Simples.....follow the Swiss model.....I'm a huge believer in the power of education, but 'third level' doesn't necessarily mean university, and we have an obsession with universities to our detriment.

I'd also pick a uni and re-configure it to be our own research-led institution. Everything we have is pretty much teaching-led at the moment.

You still have faith in auditors? I've worked with auditors on some fairly straight forward sets of accounts and couldn't believe the difficulty that some of the captains of industry the likes of PWC and EY had making sense of the operations.i can only imagine how bamboozled they'd be with financials that apple would provide.and i'm sure they've audit fees provided the mnc's are just too lucrative to pass up.
As regards my accusation how do you expect me to provide that? I don't have access to any of the data.all i know is that the E.U commision does as they are persuing the matter vigerously through the courts.
So tell me do you have any issue with the details emerging from the Paradise papers? Do you see any cause for comcern?

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

You still have faith in auditors? I've worked with auditors on some fairly straight forward sets of accounts and couldn't believe the difficulty that some of the captains of industry the likes of PWC and EY had making sense of the operations.i can only imagine how bamboozled they'd be with financials that apple would provide.and i'm sure they've audit fees provided the mnc's are just too lucrative to pass up.
As regards my accusation how do you expect me to provide that? I don't have access to any of the data.all i know is that the E.U commision does as they are persuing the matter vigerously through the courts.
So tell me do you have any issue with the details emerging from the Paradise papers? Do you see any cause for comcern?

Nope - not at all. And those same auditors are the ones used by a lot of large Irish enterprises too.

Well maybe if you can't sustain an accusation, you shouldn't make it? To be honest at lot of what you post smacks of good ol' fashioned Irish begrudgery.

The EC are pursuing Ireland through the ECJ because they think, in their interpretation, we've infringed the law on state aid. We disagree. The learned justices of the ECJ will adjudicate. They are not pursuing Apple and they are not alleging evasion - if you think they are perhaps put up a link to some statement from the Commission that indicates as much.

Beyond some of the evasions, I've no concerns. We all avoid tax, so it's hypocritical of us to criticise someone for doing it on a grander scale. Either the principle of tax avoidance is right or wrong - if it's wrong, fair enough, let's change the system.

All the Paradise Papers tell me is that the system needs to be improved - but I see no advantage in Ireland being the first to move on this issue, why shoot ourselves in the head? So we can be well thought of by people who matter not a jot to us, while we tax ourselves to economic extinction? Remember, we tried the whole 'let's-just-trade-with-ourselves-and-screw-the-outside-world' approach to national development, and it took us over half-a-century to realise we were only hurting ourselves.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

Nope - not at all. And those same auditors are the ones used by a lot of large Irish enterprises too.

Well maybe if you can't sustain an accusation, you shouldn't make it? To be honest at lot of what you post smacks of good ol' fashioned Irish begrudgery.

The EC are pursuing Ireland through the ECJ because they think, in their interpretation, we've infringed the law on state aid. We disagree. The learned justices of the ECJ will adjudicate. They are not pursuing Apple and they are not alleging evasion - if you think they are perhaps put up a link to some statement from the Commission that indicates as much.

Beyond some of the evasions, I've no concerns. We all avoid tax, so it's hypocritical of us to criticise someone for doing it on a grander scale. Either the principle of tax avoidance is right or wrong - if it's wrong, fair enough, let's change the system.

All the Paradise Papers tell me is that the system needs to be improved - but I see no advantage in Ireland being the first to move on this issue, why shoot ourselves in the head? So we can be well thought of by people who matter not a jot to us, while we tax ourselves to economic extinction? Remember, we tried the whole 'let's-just-trade-with-ourselves-and-screw-the-outside-world' approach to national development, and it took us over half-a-century to realise we were only hurting ourselves.

Not Irish bregrudgery at all.I just don't want to see us screwed,afraid to collect revenue for fear the corporations will pull our cash cow.Below are two examples of Google coughing up in the U.K and Italy, back paying taxes by 10 years and agreeing to new future rates.If countries like this can do it why can't we?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/05/04/google-pay-306m-italy-tax-deal/

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/22/google-agrees-to-pay-hmrc-130m-in-back-taxes

Also aside from the tax issues do you not see an issue with potential hidden vested interests,corruption, potential for terrorist financing and money laundering that offshore accounting poses as shown by the panama and paradise papers?

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Not Irish bregrudgery at all.I just don't want to see us screwed,afraid to collect revenue for fear the corporations will pull our cash cow.Below are two examples of Google coughing up in the U.K and Italy, back paying taxes by 10 years and agreeing to new future rates.If countries like this can do it why can't we?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2017/05/04/google-pay-306m-italy-tax-deal/

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/22/google-agrees-to-pay-hmrc-130m-in-back-taxes

Also aside from the tax issues do you not see an issue with potential hidden vested interests,corruption, potential for terrorist financing and money laundering that offshore accounting poses as shown by the panama and paradise papers?

I asked for evidence of evasion and you publish links to stories about avoidance (one even has the word in the headline "Google settles huge £259m tax bill to end criminal investigation into alleged avoidance").

....and that's what revenue and taxation bodies do - challenge avoidance. Just because hey challenge it doesn't mean its illegal.

Seriously, too much John LeCarré

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I asked for evidence of evasion and you publish links to stories about avoidance (one even has the word in the headline "Google settles huge £259m tax bill to end criminal investigation into alleged avoidance").

....and that's what revenue and taxation bodies do - challenge avoidance. Just because hey challenge it doesn't mean its illegal.

Seriously, too much John LeCarré

Care to address the last paragraph in my post? You've dodged these issues twice now.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Care to address the last paragraph in my post? You've dodged these issues twice now.

I have addressed it - you are reading too much John Le Carré.

And again, do you really think Ireland becoming the 'best boy' in the class is going to change any of that?

We don't have any off-shore territories and we don't operate as a tax haven, we have our own house in order (or rather its in as a good an order as anyone's) and we meet all our various tax treaty obligations (afaik) - and if they change the rules, I'm sure we'll change as much as is required.

What jurisdiction do we exercise over any of the firms implicated in facilitating tax avoidance, namely Appleby and Mossack Fonseca?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I have addressed it - you are reading too much John Le Carré.

And again, do you really think Ireland becoming the 'best boy' in the class is going to change any of that?

We don't have any off-shore territories and we don't operate as a tax haven, we have our own house in order (or rather its in as a good an order as anyone's) and we meet all our various tax treaty obligations (afaik) - and if they change the rules, I'm sure we'll change as much as is required.

What jurisdiction do we exercise over any of the firms implicated in facilitating tax avoidance, namely Appleby and Mossack Fonseca?

https://projekte.sueddeutsche.de/paradisepapers/politik/kofi-annan-on-corruption-in-africa-e783888/?autologin=true Kofi Annan reading too many John Le Carré novels too right? Do you honestly think the money washing into ireland from offshore duristrictions like Caymans and Bermuda are clean? How do we even know who the ultimate beneficiaries of these funds are let alone how the funds were obtained in the first place?

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

https://projekte.sueddeutsche.de/paradisepapers/politik/kofi-annan-on-corruption-in-africa-e783888/?autologin=true Kofi Annan reading too many John Le Carré novels too right? Do you honestly think the money washing into ireland from offshore duristrictions like Caymans and Bermuda are clean? How do we even know who the ultimate beneficiaries of these funds are let alone how the funds were obtained in the first place?

How much money came in here from the Caymans and Bermuda in 2016?

Seriously, I'm all for helping the less well off - what is it you think we should do? Do you think if we refuse to do business with certain tax havens that somehow the less scrupulous will be put out of business? or that if they really want to get their money into or out of the country they won't just route it a different way? What is it exactly you'd like Ireland to do?

Btw, in the Kofi Annan article you linked I can only see one reference to the Paradise and Panama Papers.....

Your son Kojo was involved in a corruption scandal surrounding the Oil-for-Food program in Iraq. Last year, the Panama Papers also showed that he had been a shareholder and director of several companies in the British Virgin Islands and Samoa. Where do you stand on this?

If something is wrong, it’s wrong for everybody. You don’t excuse relatives or sons. He used a shell company to buy an apartment, which was really unnecessary. I don’t see why one should go that route. It’s not something I would advise or condone.

.....someone used a shell company to buy an apartment? Where's the illegality?

btw, didn't a very large corruption scandal rock the UN on Annan's watch in relation to the Oil-for-Food Programme? IIRC, his son was implicated - maybe the money the son gathered through his UN contacts was used to pay for the apartment?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

How much money came in here from the Caymans and Bermuda in 2016?

Seriously, I'm all for helping the less well off - what is it you think we should do? Do you think if we refuse to do business with certain tax havens that somehow the less scrupulous will be put out of business? or that if they really want to get their money into or out of the country they won't just route it a different way? What is it exactly you'd like Ireland to do?

Btw, in the Kofi Annan article you linked I can only see one reference to the Paradise and Panama Papers.....



.....someone used a shell company to buy an apartment? Where's the illegality?

btw, didn't a very large corruption scandal rock the UN on Annan's watch in relation to the Oil-for-Food Programme? IIRC, his son was implicated - maybe the money the son gathered through his UN contacts was used to pay for the apartment?

I think we should strive for more transparancy and ask the same of any business wanting to pass funds through our country. We are not in total offshore territory yet but are nearing it when refusing to follow the E.U comissions orders.we'll be know as what Kenny said was "the best little country to do business in" before long and our reputation will slide. We'll have again earned the title of the Western Europe's Wild Wild West of finance.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I asked for evidence of evasion and you publish links to stories about avoidance (one even has the word in the headline "Google settles huge £259m tax bill to end criminal investigation into alleged avoidance").

....and that's what revenue and taxation bodies do - challenge avoidance. Just because hey challenge it doesn't mean its illegal.

Seriously, too much John LeCarré

Do you think taxation bodies challange avoidance for the sake of it? Do you think they risky lenghthy and expensive court battles for no reason?

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

I have addressed it - you are reading too much John Le Carré.

And again, do you really think Ireland becoming the 'best boy' in the class is going to change any of that?

We don't have any off-shore territories and we don't operate as a tax haven, we have our own house in order (or rather its in as a good an order as anyone's) and we meet all our various tax treaty obligations (afaik) - and if they change the rules, I'm sure we'll change as much as is required.

What jurisdiction do we exercise over any of the firms implicated in facilitating tax avoidance, namely Appleby and Mossack Fonseca?

Ireland has lots of links with now black listed companies such as Mossack Fonseca: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/panama-papers-the-irish-connections-1.2638474?mode=amp a lovely company really they'll do bussiness with anyone, even mexican drug catels it seems http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943957.html

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Do you think taxation bodies challange avoidance for the sake of it? Do you think they risky lenghthy and expensive court battles for no reason?

No, they challenge because they are statutorily obliged to gather as much as is reasonably practicable under the law.....

......and if they were so sure of their case then it wouldn't be risky, nor would it be expensive (the other side would be tagged for the costs). The cases or risky because they rest on interpretation of complex legislation. A company/individual has theirs, the tax authorities may agree to differ.....a lot of the time it is in both party's interests to settle......the tax authorities get something, but not as much as they think they should and the regulated entity avoids having to run the risk of a court case, by giving up more than they think they owe, but enough to satisfy the authorities.

Plus, not nearly all avoidance is challenged. Authorities will look at how companies organise their tax affairs and just pick the bits they think are at the far end of reasonableness in the interpretation of legislation.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

Ireland has lots of links with now black listed companies such as Mossack Fonseca: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/panama-papers-the-irish-connections-1.2638474?mode=amp a lovely company really they'll do bussiness with anyone, even mexican drug catels it seems http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article69943957.html

Well done on finding that, if I'd asks about links to those firms, it'd be relevant but I asked

What jurisdiction do we exercise over any of the firms implicated in facilitating tax avoidance, namely Appleby and Mossack Fonseca?

......we're an open economy I surprised if we didn't have direct or indirect links with them.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

I think we should strive for more transparancy and ask the same of any business wanting to pass funds through our country. We are not in total offshore territory yet but are nearing it when refusing to follow the E.U comissions orders.we'll be know as what Kenny said was "the best little country to do business in" before long and our reputation will slide. We'll have again earned the title of the Western Europe's Wild Wild West of finance.

Sorry, but who gave the Commission a monopoly on 'right' - they are a political organisation who have their own policies and, believe or not, their political interests sometimes line up ours and sometimes they don't.

And no our reputation won't slide because we recognise the importance of it and we stay within our treaty requirements.

You also overlook the good we're able to do because of our wealth. Sure, we could be noble, refuse to do business with the companies you mention and be the Commission's pet.......but, to give one example, do you think without that money we'd be able to spend a very modest €250m on navy ships and sustain one in the Med for most of the year? And just to show the impact, the "Jimmy J" saved over 3,000 lives on its last deployment and the total lives saved by the Navy in the Med stands at over 15,000.

And the best thing? We have the money to go build an even bigger ship - an MRV - that can actually deploy to help with natural disasters, not just work at saving lives at sea.

Quite simply, if we did as you suggested and sat here on our damp island only doing business with the objectively good, we'd not have the resources to go do stuff like that.

Beasty

Apple has acknowledged it has paid over €1bn in Irish corporation tax over the past few years. You can add to that all the PAYE paid by their employees over here as well as PRSI paid by the company. Without this source of funds (along with that coming in from the likes of Amazon, Google and others), there would have been no recovery in this country. The Troika would still be dictating what we can and cannot do. Public pay as well as State benefits would have needed a hatchet taking to them. Funding for schools and the health service would have been slashed. Unemployment would have rocketed rather than coming down. Our economy would probably reflect that of a place like Greece, and the EU could well have been on the brink of collapse because it was having to bail out "basket cases" such as Greece, and Ireland

I understand a lot of people feel very uncomfortable about Ireland benefitting from tax planning undertaken by these global companies. What many do not appreciate is the alternative is not for those companies to pay tax in the third world, but to pay substantially more in their "home state" - the USA. TBH, the IRS is perfectly capable of looking after itself.

Jawgap

@beasty.....I don't think unemployment would be as high you think it would be......

......emigration at historically unprecedented levels would've moderated it

Beasty

Jawgap wrote: »

@beasty.....I don't think unemployment would be as high you think it would be......

......emigration at historically unprecedented levels would've moderated it

Interestingly I see a lot more jobs and people moving from the UK to Ireland as a result of Brexit. Without an attractive International tax regime more of those jobs would be heading to the likes of Frankfurt and Paris. That will help temper the adverse impact Brexit is bound to have on the Irish economy.

Jawgap

Beasty wrote: »

Interestingly I see a lot more jobs and people moving from the UK to Ireland as a result of Brexit. Without an attractive International tax regime more of those jobs would be heading to the likes of Frankfurt and Paris. That will help temper the adverse impact Brexit is bound to have on the Irish economy.

The crowd I work for started as an office with 4 of us. And yes, it was a bit of a convenience to allow work to be routed through Dublin to benefit from the tax regime and - at the time - the strength of Sterling, versus the weakness of the Euro.

It was also a bit of a hedge against the referendum in case they voted to leave, but that was a minor consideration.

And actually after the referendum when Sterling fell, we thought we were goosed, but the tax regime still made the Dublin operation a viable proposition.....in fact more than a viable proposition.

We became the 'chosen ones' - so while our German and Italian offices are in a holding pattern, and the UK offices are being amalgamated, we're seeing all the growth......if we whacked up the corporation tax here, I'd either not have a job, or I'd have to uproot.

We're only a modest operation.....40 people in all, but all were recruited in the last 3 years and about 25% are transferees from the UK end of the operation.

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

The crowd I work for started as an office with 4 of us. And yes, it was a bit of a convenience to allow work to be routed through Dublin to benefit from the tax regime and - at the time - the strength of Sterling, versus the weakness of the Euro.

It was also a bit of a hedge against the referendum in case they voted to leave, but that was a minor consideration.

And actually after the referendum when Sterling fell, we thought we were goosed, but the tax regime still made the Dublin operation a viable proposition.....in fact more than a viable proposition.

We became the 'chosen ones' - so while our German and Italian offices are in a holding pattern, and the UK offices are being amalgamated, we're seeing all the growth......if we whacked up the corporation tax here, I'd either not have a job, or I'd have to uproot.

We're only a modest operation.....40 people in all, but all were recruited in the last 3 years and about 25% are transferees from the UK end of the operation.

We seen the opposite out office was due to be in the U.K until Brexit kicked in and the sterling fall would have meant lower revenue and increased volatility.our u.k office are being held constant while the European offices are booming.Especially mainland.I'd say the tax question is about the 3/4 consideration in the equation.

Jawgap

smurgen wrote: »

We seen the opposite out office was due to be in the U.K until Brexit kicked in and the sterling fall would have meant lower revenue and increased volatility.our u.k office are being held constant while the European offices are booming.Especially mainland.I'd say the tax question is about the 3/4 consideration in the equation.

....because they are closer to the markets and that's why its essential for us to compete on the basis of tax!!! (a point I made several pages ago).

smurgen

Jawgap wrote: »

....because they are closer to the markets and that's why its essentially for us to compete on the basis of tax!!! (a point I made several pages ago).

No cheaper labour costs.