If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me.

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

K i think the grads plan would really benefit you. The plans you have been following have been very similar, i think the change will give you a lift mentally and challenge you physically. Now, that's just my two cent worth without knowing your goals

Hopefully. Will be something new to focus on if nothing else.

aquinn wrote: »

Did you really do 4 marathons in 12 months, not really?

I think you did really well on Sunday and I loved the pictures at the finish.

With that heat letting the fear in your head take over is nothing to beat yourself up over. The humidity and the heat had me in fear in the days leading up to the half. I felt constantly parched and had a headache from the humidty. In those conditions I feel you were right to err on the side of caution and not pass out and end up needing care and attention so well done.

I think you did incredibly well.

Thanks A. Just squeezed the 4 into 12 months as Cork was 4th June last and 3rd June this year and then did DCM and Clonakilty too. I don’t really rate Clon as I just decided on the morning of it to upgrade from the half to the full for the laugh and walked the majority of the second half of it. Was a really enjoyable one though at the same time.

Kellygirl

Cork City Marathon and Recovery

Sunday - Marathon Day
Report above. Mileage 26.58 miles - longest distance run yet. Not sure what sort of raceline I ran!! I thought I was being as sensible as possible.

Monday - 3.15 miles @ 11:15 min/mile

Had to get up early to look after the kids so no lie in for me and no time for the legs to stiffen up really. I dreaded going down the stairs but no bother compare to the first three marathons. The sorest part of me was my ribs for some reason. Anyway, went in and replaced my watch which had broken the day before the marathon and had to give the new one a test drive then. Met a friend and we ran a gentle 5km. Legs were a bit heavy but not bad at all.

Tuesday - rest
Time to decide on my next plan. I’m on hols for 9 days from Friday week so I’ve decided I’m going to do mainly very easy runs for the next couple of weeks and then possibly no running at all on hols. As Ariana said at some stage the family need a break from running too. Having said that I have every intention of bringing my gear ... just in case. Maybe they’ll need a break from me too

Anyway, got out the Grads plan and calculator again and used my 5 mile to calculate my paces and intend on practicising the very easy pace for the next couple of weeks.

A friend also mentioned a local 5km race was on Thursday night - hmmmm, what should I do??? :rolleyes:

Wednesday - 5.37 miles @ 11:48 min/mile
Was meeting a friend for this so was afraid it would be harder to concentrate on keeping to the slow pace. Turned out to be very enjoyable though. Pacing wasn’t as even as it could be so need to work on that.

Thursday - Cloughduv 5km race
PB - 25:12 mins

This was a local race, a GAA club fundraiser. I had planned to run Thursday evening anyway. It ran through what’s known as Ryecourt Estate and it’s the only time each year they open it to the public so I decided I’d do it. Initially didn’t plan on racing it but wondered what the point of a leisurely jog would be and I didn’t want to do very easy pace so decided to see how I felt. By that afternoon my legs felt good and decided I’d see how my warm up went. That was grand. Did 3 strides and no twinges so all systems go.

I expected small numbers at the race. There were over 400 though and quite a few club singlets as well. As it was fundraiser for the GAA club so full of kids which made the start interesting. They were weaving in and out and it was a bit dangerous. They dropped off soon enough after their initial burst though. The first mile was a gentle slope down so I knew I was going slightly too fast but could feel that I was going down slightly so went with it. It felt ok. I was breathing heavily early on but legs were grand so kept going. My watched beeped with a 7:50 first mile - I think that’s my fastest mile ever.

Just after the 1 mile mark we turned into Ryecourt Estate. I wondered how this would go as we were now on a trail and I didn’t know if that would slow me down. It was lovely though and the smell of wild garlic was really strong. The whole route was covered by trees so my watch pace seemed a bit odd at times and I just went with it. The course measured slightly shorter than 5km in the end so I wonder if that was because of the tree cover - hopefully. We started climbing a bit here too but I tried to hold my pace hoping for the best!

Pulled out of Ryecourt back onto the road again and hit the 2 mile mark. 8:28. Average pace had climbed to 8:10. I was definitely beginning to feel it but only another mile to go. I wasn’t sure what was ahead in terms of drags and the road was windy enough so just concentrated on a good raceline and went for it. I wasn’t as fast as I’d have liked to have been but the legs were getting close to shaky. I could see the tall lights at the pitches of the club (where the finish line was) and was thinking they seemed ages away still. Not long and the entrance was in front of me and nearly there. The drive up the club bends around and I could see 24:42 on the finish clock when I entered the gates and knew I’d be close but not sub 25 unfortunately. Ran through in 25:12. It wasn’t chip timed.

So a pb for me. My previous pb in a 5km race (albeit Parkrun) was 25:57. The course measured slightly short on my watch at 3.07 but I’m taking it and blaming tree cover. Pretty pleased with myself 4 days after a marathon. Might not have been the cleverest thing to do in terms of recovery from the marathon but I needed the confidence boost to be honest.

Saturday - 5 miles @ 12.02 min / mile
Deliberately avoided Parkrun to stop me speeding up - and also to give my husband a lie in as my running on Saturdays and work early Sunday has meant no break for him for a while either. By the time I got to go running it was really warm and over 20 degrees so I was glad I was just doing a very easy 60 mins. Went to the park. Weather was amazing. Yoga in the Park was on and was amazed at the number of people doing it. I’d guess well over 150. I was on my own and really concentrated on an even pace and wasn’t too bad actually. Tree cover very heavy in parts so the watch was telling me all sorts. Anyway, a grand little run and job done.

Total mileage this week: 43.9 miles

Quite pleased with the week as a whole and recovering very well from the marathon. No new niggles or anything to worry me.

I’ve decided to potter a little bit for the next few weeks and then follow the Base Phase from the grads plan, then Killarney Half Marathon on July 28th and then straight into the Intermediate Marathon Training Plan for DCM after that. Must work out the dates so I know when I’m starting what!! Looking forward to it.

runrun2

Was following your marathon progress recently Kelly and dont know if its any of my business but I didnt think you would go sub 4.15.
I think marathon paced miles are missing from your training. For Dublin if you want to go sub 4 I think you need at least 12 miles, maybe even 15 at marathon pace included as part of your long run to feel confident.


I know you could run 12 miles at 9 minute pace but could you do that on a 20 mile run?


Theres some people here who can do 11 minute miles for their entire long run training and then easily run sub 4 but most of them are doing 5 days or more of running/training as well with some speed work.


Theres other people doing other plans and training at about 10 minute mile pace and their body gets comfortable with that pace and they end up with the equivalent of 10 minute miles for the marathon. Its a comfort zone.

Kellygirl

runrun2 wrote: »

Was following your marathon progress recently Kelly and dont know if its any of my business but I didnt think you would go sub 4.15.
I think marathon paced miles are missing from your training. For Dublin if you want to go sub 4 I think you need at least 12 miles, maybe even 15 at marathon pace included as part of your long run to feel confident.


I know you could run 12 miles at 9 minute pace but could you do that on a 20 mile run?


Theres some people here who can do 11 minute miles for their entire long run training and then easily run sub 4 but most of them are doing 5 days or more of running/training as well with some speed work.


Theres other people doing other plans and training at about 10 minute mile pace and their body gets comfortable with that pace and they end up with the equivalent of 10 minute miles for the marathon. Its a comfort zone.

Thanks for taking the time to read my log runrun2. You could be right. The plan I followed (Hal Higdon Marathon 3) just had steady long runs and speed work on a different day. I did do marathon pace miles but max 7 miles and I did up to 60 mins of tempo runs too. Also on a Saturday I’d often do parkrun at a tempo pace with 3 miles before and after at a slow pace. Maybe it was the plan, maybe it was my own confidence. I’d had a good look at the ASICS plan and that did include pace miles within long runs.

My current plan is to start the grads plan for Dublin after my holidays.

Out of interest, do youhave any other suggestions?

shotgunmcos

Hey Kellygirl, well done on the 5K PB!

runrun2 wrote: »

.
I know you could run 12 miles at 9 minute pace but could you do that on a 20 mile run?
.

This +1
Sounds and reads like you did a lot of positive work under the HH plan. You could be fit enough to do tempo, MP Miles and anything inside the first 60-90 mins as the mileage fitness has you recruiting oxygen for some of the intensity. Its when you go over 2hrs and the body is now "working" that the oxygen consumption for your muscles at marathon pace is more important. This is the reason for putting MP miles into your long runs and not at the start of your long runs. Get them used to that demand when your body is not so fresh.

A good start could be 30 mins easy (11min pace), 30 mins steady (10min), 30 mins MP (9mins), 10mins easy (11min), 20mins MP (9mins), 5mins easy, 10 mins MP, 15 mins easy
As you develop the MP in your long run you could reverse the MP intervals order as 10min MP, 5 easy, 20MP, 10 easy, 30MP (with 30min easy bookending the session)

Then 3x20min MP, 2x4O min MP and another key run of 19 miles with miles 10-17 at MP. None of this is a specific plan just the general idea!
Point is putting MP into your Long Runs as chunks first then building over time to a longer MP tempo later in your run

Kellygirl

Thanks for such an informative post shotgunmcos. I really appreciate it.

I’m currently chasing a 2 year old around a car park while my other child is at an activity so there’s a lot of food for thought here that i’ll Need to get back to later and wondering if I need to rethink my Dublin plan ... or goals.

I would like if somebody could just hand me a plan and that will work. I’ll stick to what I’m given to do as long as it matches the amount of days I can in a week etc.

runrun2

Kellygirl wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to read my log runrun2. You could be right. The plan I followed (Hal Higdon Marathon 3) just had steady long runs and speed work on a different day. I did do marathon pace miles but max 7 miles and I did up to 60 mins of tempo runs too. Also on a Saturday I’d often do parkrun at a tempo pace with 3 miles before and after at a slow pace. Maybe it was the plan, maybe it was my own confidence. I’d had a good look at the ASICS plan and that did include pace miles within long runs.

My current plan is to start the grads plan for Dublin after my holidays.

Out of interest, do youhave any other suggestions?

Hi Kelly, no other advice but follow what Shotgun said.
You're a hard worker, its just a matter of altering the plan.
If it gets too much then I'd sooner leave the paced miles in on long run day and leave out the tempo run on other day.

aquinn

Have you looked over the infamous meno plan?

Some really excellent results from it and it works around your schedule so you build the plan and hit the weekly mileage.

Unknown thought is the most recent user of it I believe, for DCM 2017 and Manchester 2018.

Murph_D used it I think on 3 cycles.

mbarr on his log posted his thoughts after using it I think at DCM 2015/2016? One of them.

Nope pre-Rotterdam 2016. It was his thoughts on the training:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057520801&page=13

Kellygirl

runrun2 wrote: »

Hi Kelly, no other advice but follow what Shotgun said.
You're a hard worker, its just a matter of altering the plan.
If it gets too much then I'd sooner leave the paced miles in on long run day and leave out the tempo run on other day.

Thank you :-)

aquinn wrote: »

Have you looked over the infamous meno plan?

Some really excellent results from it and it works around your schedule so you build the plan and hit the weekly mileage.

Unknown thought is the most recent user of it I believe, for DCM 2017 and Manchester 2018.

Murph_D used it I think on 3 cycles.

mbarr on his log posted his thoughts after using it I think at DCM 2015/2016? One of them.

Nope pre-Rotterdam 2016. It was his thoughts on the training:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057520801&page=13

Thanks for all that. I’ll have a look at all those this evening - after my run. I did browse the plan but left it at that. Need to sit and work out a few figures and make sure I can hit the weekly mileage on it. Not sure if it’s more than the grads plan - I presume more than what I did for Cork.

aquinn

Yes, take your time reading this one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/htmlview?pli=1#gid=906928231

Kellygirl

aquinn wrote: »

Yes, take your time reading this one:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Iqh0HwS7Tg0CIUOs8LPvyGiPaSKI1LxP0DIV8Vuazm8/htmlview?pli=1#gid=906928231

Will do - thanks so much. Plenty to keep me amused tonight I think :-)

Kellygirl

My head is now fried

Meno Vs Grad plan! Have read loads this evening and don’t know which to pick!

Huzzah!

Kellygirl wrote: »

My head is now fried

Meno Vs Grad plan! Have read loads this evening and don’t know which to pick!

What's your gut instinct telling you?

This struck a chord with me when I read it on one of the threads linked in the sub-4 thread: "Find a marathon plan that stretches you a little but not too much from where you are currently. Follow it pretty closely and you'll get there." I think follow either of the plans and you'll do well.

So, it's maybe just a matter of doing a pros/cons list or, as I said above, going with your gut and picking the plan that appeals to you most/fits best with your lifestyle.

aquinn

Kellygirl wrote: »

My head is now fried

Meno Vs Grad plan! Have read loads this evening and don’t know which to pick!

Are you not about to go on holidays so there is no rush.

I did DCM 2014 and followed the Boards plan. Near perfectly in my opinion until I learnt the day before what PMP was. So near perfect like

I then started the meno plan. It is very flexible in that you have to hit your mileage so you plan your week as to how this happens.

I haven't seen so can't advise on the Grad's plan but it seems to be in the same vein in that it is very flexible. Is it created by Testerstone? If so would have the invaluable advice to hand and if others are using the plan then you have people to sound off. Also if they have a great/horrific session and you've yet to do it that week what's not to love

hot buttered scones

I can recommend the Meno plan having followed it for Cork in 2017. Although the day itself didn't go too well, the plan left me very fit and with a great base to work off for Dublin last year. For Dublin I followed Pfitzinger and Daniels up to 55 miles per week plan (P+D 55). It was my my second time do the plan and it is still my favourite.

This is a copy of a spreadsheet I did for someone else. The first tab is the plan. The next 2 tabs just incorporate a buffer week for incorporating off plan races. The last tab is a pace calculator for the workouts. It is a tough, but simple plan in my opinion. Lots of recovery runs, one hard session and one long run most weeks, with a medium long run mid week. If you do decide to go with this one I would highly recommend buying the book it comes from - Advanced marathoning. The book explains about each type of workout and there purpose in detail. Plenty on here have followed it too, so again there will be plenty of advice available.

P+D 55

eyrie

Kellygirl wrote: »

My head is now fried

Meno Vs Grad plan! Have read loads this evening and don’t know which to pick!

I've been going back and forth between these two for about the last month! No closer to a decision If you figure it out let me know! :pac:

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote: »

My head is now fried

Meno Vs Grad plan! Have read loads this evening and don’t know which to pick!

Try not to overthink it too much. I know it's easier said than done but the reality is both plans will likely have you in good shape at the start line and over time you'll end up trying a whole host of different plans anyway.

Kellygirl

hot buttered scones wrote: »

I can recommend the Meno plan having followed it for Cork in 2017. Although the day itself didn't go too well, the plan left me very fit and with a great base to work off for Dublin last year. For Dublin I followed Pfitzinger and Daniels up to 55 miles per week plan (P+D 55). It was my my second time do the plan and it is still my favourite.

This is a copy of a spreadsheet I did for someone else. The first tab is the plan. The next 2 tabs just incorporate a buffer week for incorporating off plan races. The last tab is a pace calculator for the workouts. It is a tough, but simple plan in my opinion. Lots of recovery runs, one hard session and one long run most weeks, with a medium long run mid week. If you do decide to go with this one I would highly recommend buying the book it comes from - Advanced marathoning. The book explains about each type of workout and there purpose in detail. Plenty on here have followed it too, so again there will be plenty of advice available.

P+D 55

Thanks for that info HBS. Only just got to look though it now. What made this preferable to meno out of interest? With different acronyms etc I don’t totally get the recommended paces for runs without studying it a bit more.

Have studied meno in a fair bit of detail tonight and still no closer to a decision. Seems tougher and more agressive than the Grads plan for sure.

runrun2

I personally think the easiest plan for you to follow considering you have kids to look after and can only run limited days would be to use the boards plans but instead of following the long runs the way they are now on the plan, build in pace miles into the long run the way shotgun told you. Start off with 3 or 4 included in the long run and work it up until you can manage 15 or so.
Leave out the pace miles on the Wednesday as are in the plan now and just do that day as easy.
That in my opinion is more than enough of a plan for your current ability and energy levels.
I think you will end up blowing up or giving up if you start the advanced P & D or Meno's plan with all his mileage. Again I think menos plan is geared towards a more advanced runner.

I think Grad plan doesnt have specific pace miles built into it. It also requires a lot of commitment with not much down time. The long run time on your feet is probably fine for someone who is running 6 days a week but if you can only commit to 4 days then the time on your feet effort would not be long enough at your current speed IMO.

Kellygirl

runrun2 wrote: »

I personally think the easiest plan for you to follow considering you have kids to look after and can only run limited days would be to use the boards plans but instead of following the long runs the way they are now on the plan, build in pace miles into the long run the way shotgun told you. Start off with 3 or 4 included in the long run and work it up until you can manage 15 or so.
Leave out the pace miles on the Wednesday as are in the plan now and just do that day as easy.
That in my opinion is more than enough of a plan for your current ability and energy levels.
I think you will end up blowing up or giving up if you start the advanced P & D or Meno's plan with all his mileage. Again I think menos plan is geared towards a more advanced runner.

I think Grad plan doesnt have specific pace miles built into it. It also requires a lot of commitment with not much down time. The long run time on your feet is probably fine for someone who is running 6 days a week but if you can only commit to 4 days then the time on your feet effort would not be long enough at your current speed IMO.

As in the Boards novices plan? Sometime the simplest ideas are the best and that sounds like a great idea - and I loved that plan! I’d be quite happy to add in a session during the week too though and start learning something new - assuming it would benefit me.

I agree with you about the Meno mileage. I wondered myself if I would blow up. I’d certainly find it tough.

runrun2

Kellygirl wrote: »

As in the Boards novices plan? Sometime the simplest ideas are the best and that sounds like a great idea - and I loved that plan! I’d be quite happy to add in a session during the week too though and start learning something new - assuming it would benefit me.

I agree with you about the Meno mileage. I wondered myself if I would blow up. I’d certainly find it tough.

Yes the boards novice one with all the bells and whistles. Its a nice simple plan and others from last year have run sub 4 off it. If you feel able to do Wednesday pace as well then great but make sure you do pace miles in the long runs for sure. So this means altering the plan slightly for the long runs but I think its perfect for you.

Kellygirl

runrun2 wrote: »

Yes the boards novice one with all the bells and whistles. Its a nice simple plan and others from last year have run sub 4 off it. If you feel able to do Wednesday pace as well then great but make sure you do pace miles in the long runs for sure. So this means altering the plan slightly for the long runs but I think its perfect for you.

Sounds good. I take it that it would be ok to do the Tuesday run on a Monday and alter the plan a little further?

I like this idea :-)

runrun2

Kellygirl wrote: »

Sounds good. I take it that it would be ok to do the Tuesday run on a Monday and alter the plan a little further?

I like this idea :-)

Yes, I dont see why not. Your guide on your progress will be if you're managing the paced miles with the long run and try doing them towards the end of the long run, not at the start when you're fresh.


If you feel wrecked at any stage turn the Wednesday sessions into easy runs

Kellygirl

Ok I like that! Thanks for all your advice :-)

runrun2

Kellygirl wrote: »

Ok I like that! Thanks for all your advice :-)

Have you been in touch with any of the ones who ran sub 4 off it?
It would be good to find out if they were tagging on any more mileage themselves

If you are altering the plan I would not lower the mileage, its probably the minimum amount of mileage you could work off for a marathon really but adding the pace miles will increase the effort.

Kellygirl

runrun2 wrote: »

Have you been in touch with any of the ones who ran sub 4 off it?
It would be good to find out if they were tagging on any more mileage themselves

If you are altering the plan I would not lower the mileage, its probably the minimum amount of mileage you could work off for a marathon really but adding the pace miles will increase the effort.

You mean the other novices? Must check.

I’d intend doing extra mileage. I’m used to running minimum 5 miles on a Monday and Thursday and I’ve also started adding in a 30-45 min run on a Sunday morn as 5th run that I should be able to keep up.

runrun2

Kellygirl wrote: »

You mean the other novices? Must check.

I’d intend doing extra mileage. I’m used to running minimum 5 miles on a Monday and Thursday and I’ve also started adding in a 30-45 min run on a Sunday morn as 5th run that I should be able to keep up.

Thats great, I think you can do it this time. just up your game

ariana`

K, i'm delighted to see you getting good advice and becoming clearer on the way forward! I'll be looking forward to following your progress with the plan.

runrun2 wrote: »

I think Grad plan doesnt have specific pace miles built into it. It also requires a lot of commitment with not much down time. The long run time on your feet is probably fine for someone who is running 6 days a week but if you can only commit to 4 days then the time on your feet effort would not be long enough at your current speed IMO.

runrun2, this little word thrown in there has me a tiny bit concerned I'm planning to follow the Grads plan, i plan to run mostly 6 day weeks though undoubtedly there will be some 5 days weeks as well I know nobody can give me a guarantee but do you think the Grads plan (at my current speed which is similar to KellyGirls) will be sufficient to run a good marathon? I'm not necessarily targeting sub-4 realistically i think i need another marathon cycle in my legs before i really give sub 4 a good rattle.

K, sorry for the hijack

skyblue46

runrun2 wrote: »

Have you been in touch with any of the ones who ran sub 4 off it?
It would be good to find out if they were tagging on any more mileage themselves

If you are altering the plan I would not lower the mileage, its probably the minimum amount of mileage you could work off for a marathon really but adding the pace miles will increase the effort.

Kellygirl wrote: »

You mean the other novices? Must check.

I’d intend doing extra mileage. I’m used to running minimum 5 miles on a Monday and Thursday and I’ve also started adding in a 30-45 min run on a Sunday morn as 5th run that I should be able to keep up.

Just my bit in reply to both posts. Yes I added extra mileage to the plan on most days. I also threw in some faster last few miles into a number of the long runs and did a couple of them as progression runs. If I remember rightly one of the latter ones was 23 miles which was pretty equally divided into 9:45 mins miles, then 9:20s and the last third at faster than PMP. I also tried to include some drags towards the end of long runs (as Lazare and Browneyes can attest to )

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

Just my bit in reply to both posts. Yes I added extra mileage to the plan on most days. I also threw in some faster last few miles into a number of the long runs and did a couple of them as progression runs. If I remember rightly one of the latter ones was 23 miles which was pretty equally divided into 9:45 mins miles, then 9:20s and the last third at faster than PMP. I also tried to include some drags towards the end of long runs (as Lazare and Browneyes can attest to )

Thanks SB.