If it’s meant to be, it’s up to me.

runrun2

ariana` wrote: »

K, i'm delighted to see you getting good advice and becoming clearer on the way forward! I'll be looking forward to following your progress with the plan.



runrun2, this little word thrown in there has me a tiny bit concerned I'm planning to follow the Grads plan, i plan to run mostly 6 day weeks though undoubtedly there will be some 5 days weeks as well I know nobody can give me a guarantee but do you think the Grads plan (at my current speed which is similar to KellyGirls) will be sufficient to run a good marathon? I'm not necessarily targeting sub-4 realistically i think i need another marathon cycle in my legs before i really give sub 4 a good rattle.

K, sorry for the hijack

Hi Ariana, No I think the plan is great, if you can manage the mileage then you're in very good shape. Also I wouldn't worry about doing only 5 days since it says you can rest if you like on 6th day.

Its generic in the sense that its measured by time rather than distance.
The boards one is just simpler to me and because distance is already mapped
out then Kelly doesn't need to worry about how many miles she can cover on her long run in 3 hours.


Some people will cover more distance in a 3 hour training run than others (the longest run on grad plan is 3 hours). I think the argument about that is that after 3 hours on your feet the benefits are minimal or perhaps reversed. I'm sure other people like to have a certain distance covered on a long training run to feel confident they can cover the distance rather than think of the physiological benefits.
I'm also sure this argument has been done to death probably on the initial grad thread where this plan was posted.


It wouldnt be a bad thread to start - peoples opinions on doing a long run based on time on feet rather than distance.

skyblue46

runrun2 wrote: »

Hi Ariana, No I think the plan is great, if you can manage the mileage then you're in very good shape. Also I wouldn't worry about doing only 5 days since it says you can rest if you like on 6th day.

Its generic in the sense that its measured by time rather than distance.
The boards one is just simpler to me and because distance is already mapped
out then Kelly doesn't need to worry about how many miles she can cover on her long run in 3 hours.


Some people will cover more distance in a 3 hour training run than others (the longest run on grad plan is 3 hours). I think the argument about that is that after 3 hours on your feet the benefits are minimal or perhaps reversed. I'm sure other people like to have a certain distance covered on a long training run to feel confident they can cover the distance rather than think of the physiological benefits.
I'm also sure this argument has been done to death probably on the initial grad thread where this plan was posted.


It wouldnt be a bad thread to start - peoples opinions on doing a long run based on time on feet rather than distance.

Is it not more important that training replicates the affects of racing and improves individual components which then improve the sum? Boxers don't train 12 x 3 minute rounds, Tour de France cyclists don't do much race pace training. They do endurance training, they go up mountains paced by motorbikes at paces faster than they will ever race it but in short reps. Their long spins are slower than race pace.

runrun2

skyblue46 wrote: »

Is it not more important that training replicates the affects of racing and improves individual components which then improve the sum? Boxers don't train 12 x 3 minute rounds, Tour de France cyclists don't do much race pace training. They do endurance training, they go up mountains paced by motorbikes at paces faster than they will ever race it but in short reps. Their long spins are slower than race pace.

As I said in that post Im sure that argument has been done to death so I'll opt out of a response and point you to the grads thread where they discuss it.
You might fancy pulling a plan together for Kelly and Ariana yourself

skyblue46

runrun2 wrote: »

more important than what? Sorry I don't get your analogy.

Than having plenty of race pace miles. I'm intending to use the grads plan which as you mentioned is short on MP miles on long runs. You see this as the reason KG didn't, nor ever could for Cork, do the time she hoped for. I'm happy with the logic behind the grads plan based on training practice in many other sports and was hoping you could explain why I should be worried about the lack of PMP miles on long runs.

runrun2

skyblue46 wrote: »

Than having plenty of race pace miles. I'm intending to use the grads plan which as you mentioned is short on MP miles on long runs. You see this as the reason KG didn't, nor ever could for Cork, do the time she hoped for. I'm happy with the logic behind the grads plan based on training practice in many other sports and was hoping you could explain why I should be worried about the lack of PMP miles on long runs.

I'm not saying anyone should be worried and I'm not fully sure what you're saying about KG?


This is only my opinion, different strokes etc. different techniques.



Okay sorry Sky, nobody is saying to go out and do 26 marathon miles at pace.
But IMO, if you could pull 15 pace miles out on a 20 mile long run I reckon you would be replicating how you feel on race day as much as is possible,



Look at McMillan 10k plan, probably the most assuring 10k plan out there for reaching a target. It almost totally replicates the 10k race.
3x2 miles at race pace etc.

skyblue46

runrun2 wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone should be worried and I'm not fully sure what you're saying about KG?


This is only my opinion, different strokes etc. different techniques.



Okay sorry Sky, nobody is saying to go out and do 26 marathon miles at pace.
But IMO, if you could pull 15 pace miles out on a 20 mile long run I reckon you would be replicating how you feel on race day as much as is possible,



Look at McMillan 10k plan, probably the most assuring 10k plan out there for reaching a target. It almost totally replicates the 10k race.
3x2 miles at race pace etc.

Ah okay. You see I don't know how long you have been following KGs progress but she ran 4:20 at a canter in DCM. I don't think she needed a huge change in emphasis to break 4 hours. To reach 3:40/3:45 would certainly need a different approach.

Anyways back to me, coz it's all about me and 29/10/18. Do you think I need to be doing 15 mp miles on my long run ( I know not them all) to get the best out of myself while at the same time not taking an excessive injury or burnout risk?

Kellygirl

I think both plans have their merits. The Grads plan is all about the cumulative effect of the runs throughout the week. I probably can’t do all of those runs so I’ll lose out from those benefits.

The boards plan suits me. I loved it last year and it gave me a fab DCM 17. My issue now is getting faster and also the confidence to do that pace on the day and that’s what I was missing in Cork. I think the mp miles in the long runs should help that side of things as well as giving me something different to focus on for this training cycle.

Kellygirl

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ah okay. You see I don't know how long you have been following KGs progress but she ran 4:20 at a canter in DCM. I don't think she needed a huge change in emphasis to break 4 hours. To reach 3:40/3:45 would certainly need a different approach.

Anyways back to me, coz it's all about me and 29/10/18. Do you think I need to be doing 15 mp miles on my long run ( I know not them all) to get the best out of myself while at the same time not taking an excessive injury or burnout risk?

I think you’d do better if you turned up on the 28/10/18!

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

The boards plan suits me. I loved it last year and it gave me a fab DCM 17. My issue now is getting faster and also the confidence to do that pace on the day and that’s what I was missing in Cork. I think the mp miles in the long runs should help that side of things as well as giving me something different to focus on for this training cycle.

Just a small suggestion as your running career developes . Mix up the training blocks. Improving your shorter distances will feed into your marathon.

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

I think you’d do better if you turned up on the 28/10/18!

He doesn't like big crowds :pac:

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Just a small suggestion as your running career developes . Mix up the training blocks. Improving your shorter distances will feed into your marathon.

Good point. I’m just going from one marathon to the next!

runrun2

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ah okay. You see I don't know how long you have been following KGs progress but she ran 4:20 at a canter in DCM. I don't think she needed a huge change in emphasis to break 4 hours. To reach 3:40/3:45 would certainly need a different approach.

Anyways back to me, coz it's all about me and 29/10/18. Do you think I need to be doing 15 mp miles on my long run ( I know not them all) to get the best out of myself while at the same time not taking an excessive injury or burnout risk?

Ah Im such a dope, I'm only copping you're talking about Kelly right.
Yeah, to me I think thats what Kelly was missing and I agree with you I dont think she needed much change either other than pace miles which is why I suggested earlier to her to follow boards and leave out any speed runs except for the pace miles on the long run.
She says shes able for more so she should give it a good lash now and with a bit of motivation and drive she'll get there I think.



I couldnt tell you about your approach or ariana's either really as I havnt followed either progress. I cant remember why but I got involved in reading Kellys log and shotgun and another one or two.


I only commented on what I noticed about the plans when I read them. Theres pros and cons to everyone but there all generic and pretty much the same, its up to the individual to work out their own goals and train smartly



Obviously you would be building up towards a max of 15 to 17 pace miles and not going out every week and doing 15, yes that would burn anyone out.
Its up to kelly now to alter her plan and work out her build up.
She'll probably have weeks when shes not up to pace miles and needs to step back etc.

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

Good point. I’m just going from one marathon to the next!

Understandable. I see it a lot. Haha. But trust me. The shorter stuff will break it up. Going from one marathon cycle to the next is tough. Running 5k and 10k races has a much shorter recovery too so you get to go back running much sooner. Haha.

Feel free to ignore a guy who's never run a marathon.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Understandable. I see it a lot. Haha. But trust me. The shorter stuff will break it up. Going from one marathon cycle to the next is tough. Running 5k and 10k races has a much shorter recovery too so you get to go back running much sooner. Haha.

Feel free to ignore a guy who's never run a marathon.

For a non marathon runner you're strangely astute! KG for a long time just wanted to do marathons...For enjoyment, walking if needed. The 5 and 10k work would bring in the hardship needed to go after a time target in the marathon.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

For a non marathon runner you're strangely astute! KG for a long time just wanted to do marathons...For enjoyment, walking if needed. The 5 and 10k work would bring in the hardship needed to go after a time target in the marathon.

That's exactly it. And that's why you'll be enthralled when I go for sub 3 on my first attempt. Haha

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Understandable. I see it a lot. Haha. But trust me. The shorter stuff will break it up. Going from one marathon cycle to the next is tough. Running 5k and 10k races has a much shorter recovery too so you get to go back running much sooner. Haha.

Feel free to ignore a guy who's never run a marathon.

skyblue46 wrote: »

For a non marathon runner you're strangely astute! KG for a long time just wanted to do marathons...For enjoyment, walking if needed. The 5 and 10k work would bring in the hardship needed to go after a time target in the marathon.

You are both correct. Marathons take the pressure off me to run too fast. I’m not very good at speed. But, I still want pbs in the shorter stuff but more as a consequence to my marathon training. I don’t think I’ll do the Cork full next year so maybe after Dublin it will be time to concentrate on the shorter stuff.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

That's exactly it. And that's why you'll be enthralled when I go for sub 3 on my first attempt. Haha

Sub 3? I'll only be enthralled if it's sub 2:50!

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

You are both correct. Marathons take the pressure off me to run too fast. I’m not very good at speed. But, I still want pbs in the shorter stuff but more as a consequence to my marathon training. I don’t think I’ll do the Cork full next year so maybe after Dublin it will be time to concentrate on the shorter stuff.

Well the best way forward in running is to get better at the things you're bad at. I went to Luke and asked him to improve my stamina and endurance. 1200 miles later and we're making progress. Haha.

All joking aside speed is relative. There's a misconception that to run 5ks you need to be super quick. You don't. And any improvements made there will feed on to your next block.

Aside from all that you're doing great regardless. Just some thoughts. By no means criticsing your excellent progress.

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

Sub 3? I'll only be enthralled if it's sub 2:50!

Let me get back to you this time next year. Haha

Rururun

Such an interesting thread and advice - good luck with mapping your own plan KG - amazing to have so much experience under our own belt too as your finding out what works for you and what you can do different! Enjoy the training in any case!

Kellygirl

Rururun wrote: »

Such an interesting thread and advice - good luck with mapping your own plan KG - amazing to have so much experience under our own belt too as your finding out what works for you and what you can do different! Enjoy the training in any case!

It suddenly turned into a hive of activity tonight!!

I have enjoyed all the banter and the advice and looking forward to getting going again in a couple of weeks with training ... and doing myself justice this time round.

Runrun2, not sure where you appeared from but thanks again for sorting me out!

ariana`

Some great posts on here last night.

Kellygirl wrote: »

You are both correct. Marathons take the pressure off me to run too fast. I’m not very good at speed. But, I still want pbs in the shorter stuff but more as a consequence to my marathon training. I don’t think I’ll do the Cork full next year so maybe after Dublin it will be time to concentrate on the shorter stuff.

I agree with Swashbuckler's advice with respect to doing the shorter stuff in between marathon plans KG. And i beg to differ with you on the point above. I think you just need practice!! In relation to your 5k race last week i already mentioned this post from my log which i think is very relevant to you at the moment - you just need practice This was posted on my log 2 months ago and i'm can say with confidence that I've proved AMK to have been correct. You've mentioned walking in both your 5m and your HM reports this year, i think some practice at short sharp stuff through doing sessions and doing shorter races would give you great confidence that you can hurt and still keep going. But now i'm really just repeating advice you already got from more experienced runners than I but i thought that post on my thread was a good one and very relevant to you so i wanted to share it

Kellygirl

ariana` wrote: »

Some great posts on here last night.



I agree with Swashbuckler's advice with respect to doing the shorter stuff in between marathon plans KG. And i beg to differ with you on the point above. I think you just need practice!! In relation to your 5k race last week i already mentioned this post from my log which i think is very relevant to you at the moment - you just need practice This was posted on my log 2 months ago and i'm can say with confidence that I've proved AMK to have been correct. You've mentioned walking in both your 5m and your HM reports this year, i think some practice at short sharp stuff through doing sessions and doing shorter races would give you great confidence that you can hurt and still keep going. But now i'm really just repeating advice you already got from more experienced runners than I but i thought that post on my thread was a good one and very relevant to you so i wanted to share it

Thanks Ariana. Great points. I must have a think as most of the shorter races are on during the Summer so would be nice to settle into training for shorter stuff after DCM but finding a race might not be so easy then - yet there were 3 5km races on locally last night that I could have gone to if I wanted.

Swashbuckler

Kellygirl wrote:

Thanks Ariana. Great points. I must have a think as most of the shorter races are on during the Summer so would be nice to settle into training for shorter stuff after DCM but finding a race might not be so easy then - yet there were 3 5km races on locally last night that I could have gone to if I wanted.

parkrun

Kellygirl

Swashbuckler wrote: »

parkrun

Oh yeah :rolleyes::D

Baby75

I have been reading with great interest some great post over the last few days

I have to agree about fitting in the shorter stuff in between marathon / possibly ultra training K, I really enjoyed working towards my 5k time around December/January I used some speed sessions Testerone posted on a thread here on boards and found them great it was fun as well

Kellygirl

Recovery week 2 and other stuff

So I’ve just finished a lovely week’s running. Every run was so enjoyable.

Sunday: 45 mins very easy: 3.86 miles @ 11:41
A few weeks before Cork I introduced the Sunday morning run as a 5th run for the week. I’ve an early start at work having to be there for 8am and then over 4 hours in a swimming pool so these need to be very easy runs. Handy to squeeze in a recovery run. I want to make this a habit if I can though. I just plodded around the city - which stank and the remnants from the night before were fairly gross. Headed out the mardyke then to get away from the main streets.

Monday: 60 mins very easy: 5.11 miles @ 11.47
Just an easy pleasant run by myself. Don’t remember much more about it.

Wednesday: 90 mins easy: 8.2 miles at 10:59
My goal for this run was to increase the pace slightly to easy (11 min/mile) and also to try and keep the pace as steady as possible. It was such a lovely run. Weather had cooled a bit and even had a bit of rain. I liked the pace more than the ‘very easy’ and just enjoyed every minute of it.

Thursday: 60 min easy: 5.6 miles @ 11:00
Met a friend for this who was happy to run at my pace. Not as steady as the day before but the average was spot on. Another lovely run.

Saturday: 2 hours (30 min easy (11min mile); 30 min steady (10 min mile); 30 min MP (9 min mile); 30 min easy

After all the discussions on my log I decided I wanted to put one of the suggested sessions to use and my legs felt really ready for a bit of work too. Again I enjoyed the whole lot of this run. I’d set it up as a workout on my watch and the time flew with the changes every 30 mins. The 11 min mile was grand. The 10 min mile was probably my favorite part. I just settled into it and nice and steady. I was thinking maybe I should just run my marathons at that pace. I was in my happy zone :-) Just as a I turned to head back the way I came I started into the 9 min miles. I was now heading into the wind and took ages to settle into the pace. I kept pushing it too fast and then pulling back to get to the right pace. I think I was feeling that a 9 min mile needed more effort but actually it didn’t. It still felt fairly fast. I was glad when I got to the end of the 30 mins as I was at the bottom of a hill - well a drag really but was handy to drop back to the 11 min mile then. That was hard to slow down to and I kept speeding up. Felt great at the end though and was at 11.74 miles when the workout ended so kept going to get 12 miles. I was ready to go again after the easy 30 mins and thought about it but figured there was no point overdoing it for no reason. Turned out my paces were spot on when I looked at Garmin Connect after so pleased with that. Need to practice mp miles a lot more though and get comfortable with the pace.

Total miles for the week: 34.8 miles

Other stuff
So thanks to the help here during the week I now know that I am going to follow the Boards plan modified with mp miles in the long runs and I’m looking forward to it. I amended it last night to take out the race series and put in Killarney half marathon and the John Buckley 10 mile. I’m on holidays for the first week of the plan and no idea if I’ll get any running done there but it’s only 9 days and I’m not going to worry about it.

Kellygirl

Hi Guys, just wondering if I could ask for a bit more advice on the adding marathon pace miles into long runs.

I’ve been playing with the Boards plan to increase the mileage throughout the week to what I’m used to doing anyway. I was also thinking about the long runs and incorporating the mp miles. My fear is due to lack of experience I’ll either under do it or over do it. Afraid I won’t tell the difference between expected fatigue and then under train or overtrain in other words. Is it as simple as adding an extra mp mile weekly or block of mp miles and maybe step back to a steady easy run every 3 weeks or so?

So I was looking at plans that incorporate mp miles in long runs for guidance and I came across this sub 4 ASICS plan. Just wondering does anybody have an opinion on it? Specifically the long runs but would be it worth considering the plan as a whole? There are 2 days of faster stuff along with the long run but I think I like that.

http://www.petewilcock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-4.00.pdf

ariana`

Kellygirl wrote: »

Hi Guys, just wondering if I could ask for a bit more advice on the adding marathon pace miles into long runs.

I’ve been playing with the Boards plan to increase the mileage throughout the week to what I’m used to doing anyway. I was also thinking about the long runs and incorporating the mp miles. My fear is due to lack of experience I’ll either under do it or over do it. Afraid I won’t tell the difference between expected fatigue and then under train or overtrain in other words. Is it as simple as adding an extra mp mile weekly or block of mp miles and maybe step back to a steady easy run every 3 weeks or so?

So I was looking at plans that incorporate mp miles in long runs for guidance and I came across this sub 4 ASICS plan. Just wondering does anybody have an opinion on it? Specifically the long runs but would be it worth considering the plan as a whole? There are 2 days of faster stuff along with the long run but I think I like that.

http://www.petewilcock.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ASICS_TRAININGPLANS_Sub-4.00.pdf

I got a chance to look at it in some detail there K and i think i'd slow the pace of some of the slow called 'easy' runs. The plans suggests 10 min/mile, for me (and i think we're fairly similar) i'd probably do them at 10:30-11:00 min/mile. Also i notice some weeks have no easy runs which is strange, for example week 2 has no easy run except for the LSR. Same again in week 14 (of 16), no easy run.

It looks like a fairly tough plan to be honest, lots of variety though and good progression in the long runs. I like the layout - it's very dummy friendly for sure. I am tempted and interested to hear what those more experienced might think.

Huzzah!

ariana` wrote: »

I got a chance to look at it in some detail there K and i think i'd slow the pace of some of the slow called 'easy' runs. The plans suggests 10 min/mile, for me (and i think we're fairly similar) i'd probably do them at 10:30-11:00 min/mile. Also i notice some weeks have no easy runs which is strange, for example week 2 has no easy run except for the LSR. Same again in week 14 (of 16), no easy run.

It looks like a fairly tough plan to be honest, lots of variety though and good progression in the long runs. I like the layout - it's very dummy friendly for sure. I am tempted and interested to hear what those more experienced might think.

The long run in week 13 looks :eek:

(Although, for a sub4, it's basically 13 miles at PMP, so maybe not so bad)