Rio marathon champ tests postive for EPO

Alf Veedersane

average_runner wrote: »

Eh no it wasn't.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2017/05/maria-sharapova-not-given-wild-card-entry-for-french-open/66074/

That link said she didn't play...

But I take your point.

That being said, some within the game will take a stance against doping, some won't.

But I don't think the testing in tennis is particularly strict or thorough. Nor other sports either.

I think cycling and athletics take all the flak because people get caught but I think that's largely because other sports don't test as stringently.

Chivito550

skyblue46 wrote: »

Oh he does alright...except when the athlete in question is British

I could be wrong but I thought he was very critical of Chambers.

He can’t accuse people who haven’t been caught on air. He’ll be sued for that. I’m sure he has his own private suspicions.

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

Their superior stamina and recovery as a match progresses would be apparent.

Cough cough 2012 European cup final. International

Chivito550

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ok I'm confused. Are we agreeing drugs are in every real sport?

I’m basically disproving the nonsense that doping helps somebody in one sport more than another. Physical fitness is huge in every sport, and so doping plays a big role across the board in terms of various sports.

RuMan

ThisRegard wrote: »

Their superior stamina and recovery as a match progresses would be apparent.

Also recovery between matches if u were going for La Liga , CL and domestic cup.

average_runner

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

That link said she didn't play...

But I take your point.

That being said, some within the game will take a stance against doping, some won't.

But I don't think the testing in tennis is particularly strict or thorough. Nor other sports either.

I think cycling and athletics take all the flak because people get caught but I think that's largely because other sports don't test as stringently.

She was denied entry before injury and no wildcard for Wimbledon but she got injured in Birmingham I think.

Who test the tennis players in the Olympics?

clickerquicklic

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ok I'm confused. Are we agreeing drugs are in every real sport?

I was thinking the same myself everyone seems to be in violent agreement yet there seems to be tension

average_runner

We should really stop bringing other sports into it when an athlete gets caught.

skyblue46

Chivito550 wrote: »

I’m basically disproving the nonsense that doping helps somebody in one sport more than another. Physical fitness is huge in every sport, and so doping plays a big role across the board in terms of various sports.

Well here I'll say goodbye so. You are basically saying that all sports have an equal balance between skill, endurance and fitness? That no sports can derive more benefit from drugs than another? And you have proven this?

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

Cough cough 2012 European cup final. International

The year after which Arsenal Wenger publicly stated that the game was full of drug cheats.

skyblue46

clickerquicklic wrote: »

I was thinking the same myself everyone seems to be in violent agreement yet there seems to be tension

Cycling is my sport. I love it and have a lifetime association with it. But when I hear a suggestion that because bike handling is a skill that somehow cycling does not benefit to the same extent as other sports I am reduced to tears. Cycling as with athletics is one of the sports where drugs can be the biggest game changers.

RuMan

Drugs are a big game changer in any sport at the very highest level. The gains at those levels are so marginal that anything that gives even a slight advantage is huge.

skyblue46

RuMan wrote: »

Drugs are a big game changer in any sport at the very highest level. The gains at those levels are so marginal that anything that gives even a slight advantage is huge.

Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.

Alf Veedersane

average_runner wrote: »

Who test the tennis players in the Olympics?

WADA in conjunction with the organisers, I believe.

Well, WADA said half the planned tests in Rio didn't happen because of SNAFUs from anti-doping in Rio.

But it's generally thought that it's very light touch in tennis.

Alf Veedersane

average_runner wrote: »

We should really stop bringing other sports into it when an athlete gets caught.

True.

But what happens is when an athlete tests positive, people take the position that the sport has tested positive.

And, in fairness, my countering that other sports are soft on testing doesn't help so I'll stop. But it just annoys me when people start saying some sports are dirty because people are being caught because the reality is they're working hard to catch them.

RuMan

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.

I don't really agree. You are purely focusing on endurance but strength and recovery time improvements can make a massive difference in rugby for example.

Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

S.L.F.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Yes, within a sport they are huge but the benefits in different sports are greatly different. If drugs create a person with huge speed they'll be no good in rugby, tennis, swimming etc where lots of technical skills are required. They will most likely gain more in athletics. Likewise some sports benefit more from endurance. All sportspeople can produce better performances with the aid of drugs but some also have bigger skills deficits to overcome.

I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.

skyblue46

RuMan wrote: »

I don't really agree. You are purely focusing on endurance but strength and recovery time improvements can make a massive difference in rugby for example.

Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

Ok we'll agree to differ. I'm not arguing drugs have no benefit in any sport, just that they offer more in some. I won't stop believing that and others won't agree. Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Alf Veedersane

S.L.F. wrote: »

I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.

Recovery to allow athletes to train harder is one element but different PEDs for different needs.

skyblue46

S.L.F. wrote: »

I dont get the whole speed verses endurance thing. I thought the whole point in performance drugs is the training it allows you to do.

Steroids and HGH offer benefits in one way, blood doping and EPO etc in another way.

S.L.F.

This is kind of old but athletics isnt even in the top 5:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/06/29/what-sports-have-the-worst-doping-problems/

S.L.F.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Recovery to allow athletes to train harder is one element but different PEDs for different needs.

skyblue46 wrote: »

Steroids and HGH offer benefits in one way, blood doping and EPO etc in another way.

Yeah was thinking that afterwards alright but they're all taken mainly in training to build up the body but yes the EPO is needed during the race or something similar for the Oxegen edge.

ThisRegard

RuMan wrote: »

Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

Professionalism in rugby is only relatively new. Most of the differences can be put down to the fact that 30 years ago your average forward sat on his hole every day, smoked, had a poor diet and trained maybe twice a week.

You can't compare then and now and come to the conclusion it's just drugs.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

I just wonder why you picked Murray and not both my examples

Well, because we all know that the Farrah hate has been done to death here regarding PEDs...

walshb

RuMan wrote: »

Look at the change in body shape between Tennis/rugby players now versus 30 years ago. Pan y Aqua ?

As already been addressed money and professionalism and an overall hunger and desire to push the boundaries easily explains the differences. It’s apparent in life, not just sport.

El Caballo

skyblue46 wrote: »

Cycling is my sport. I love it and have a lifetime association with it. But when I hear a suggestion that because bike handling is a skill that somehow cycling does not benefit to the same extent as other sports I am reduced to tears. Cycling as with athletics is one of the sports where drugs can be the biggest game changers.

It does not matter how big or small the perceived gains are, cheating is cheating and the comparison is Apple's to oranges. Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do much like taking a rider aka lance with a huge cycling economy and pump him full of EPO and see what you get... Even the variance of effectiveness range hugely across a single sport like Cycling. It doesn't matter how much benefit you get, it's the intention and disregard for the rules that make doping what it is no matter what sport it is.

The hypocrisy I see here is the way it has been since the Russian scandal broke in 2014. Posters deflecting athletics problems on to sports that they are saying are deflecting. You never get anywhere with denial, just look at the IAAF.

walshb

El Caballo wrote: »

Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do .

What can they do? Have you seen something that I haven't?

Chivito550

El Caballo wrote: »

It does not matter how big or small the perceived gains are, cheating is cheating and the comparison is Apple's to oranges. Take a small skilful team like Spain and feed them anabolics and then see what they can do much like taking a rider aka lance with a huge cycling economy and pump him full of EPO and see what you get... Even the variance of effectiveness range hugely across a single sport like Cycling. It doesn't matter how much benefit you get, it's the intention and disregard for the rules that make doping what it is no matter what sport it is.

The hypocrisy I see here is the way it has been since the Russian scandal broke in 2014. Posters deflecting athletics problems on to sports that they are saying are deflecting. You never get anywhere with denial, just look at the IAAF.

I don’t think it is deflecting. Speaking for myself I am very happy to discuss the problems in athletics. But when you get posters from other sports (which are just as doped) jumping in here saying athletics is 100% juiced, then I’m
going to defend the sport.

More seriously, I’ve heard of people saying they don’t want their kids doing athletics because of drugs, and would rather them do other sports like rugby, soccer, tennis, whatever. I have actually come across this. Should we just stand by and not stand up for our sport, and the fact that athletics only has more failed tests because it actually bothers to test?

No problem when people call out problems in our sport. It’s when people do this, yet maintain other sports are clean, that I can’t deal with.

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I don’t think it is deflecting. Speaking for myself I am very happy to discuss the problems in athletics. But when you get posters from other sports (which are just as doped) jumping in here saying athletics is 100% juiced, then I’m
going to defend the sport.

More seriously, I’ve heard of people saying they don’t want their kids doing athletics because of drugs, and would rather them do other sports like rugby, soccer, tennis, whatever. I have actually come across this. Should we just stand by and not stand up for our sport, and the fact that athletics only has more failed tests because it actually bothers to test?

No problem when people call out problems in our sport. It’s when people do this, yet maintain other sports are clean, that I can’t deal with.

Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.

walshb

I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

It even sounds dumb...

Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

Always has been.

Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.

I did, because somebody who has no involvement in athletics jumped in at the start of the thread saying everyone in athletics is on drugs.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

Sorry but you always bring in other sports, for example on this thread, you were the one that brought in other sports.

All sports have problems but when we dilute a thread like this with other sports for no reason it kinda kills this forum.

Because he's tired hearing these ill informed lazy ass blanket complete generalizations being thrown around about the WHOLE sport.....

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

I did, because somebody who has no involvement in athletics jumped in at the start of the thread saying everyone in athletics is on drugs.

Some one just said it was a poor excuse and they were right.

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

Because he's tired hearing these ill informed lazy ass blanket complete generalizations being thrown around about the WHOLE sport.....

That's fair enough but then the same generalizations are thrown around on the other sports in the same thread, so it achieves nothing but derails the thread.

That's my 2 cents.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

That's fair enough but then the same generalizations are thrown around on the other sports in the same thread, so it achieves nothing but derails the thread.

That's my 2 cents.

I see your point.....

Anyway, personally I do believe that drugs and the temptation/benefits to use is more evident in certain sports compared to others.

Chivito550

average_runner wrote: »

Some one just said it was a poor excuse and they were right.

Maybe look a post or two down.

Anyway I’ve enough of this. I’ve training this evening, so I need to get that blood bag out of the fridge so I’m ready for this evening!

average_runner

walshb wrote: »

I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

It even sounds dumb...

Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

Always has been.

Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."

True, but some ex pro's have made statements hoping that their kids don't go down the road of professional athletics, marathon talk has a good podcast on it.

Chivito550

walshb wrote: »

I never heard a parent say that they don't want their kids doing athletics because of drugs....

It even sounds dumb...

Athletics is a bit down the pecking order for kids and parents and selections.

Always has been.

Next to nothing to do with drugs. But a lot to do with toughness and effort and "glamour."

https://twitter.com/pth_c/status/918846893987426304

average_runner

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maybe look a post or two down.

Anyway I’ve enough of this. I’ve training this evening, so I need to get that blood bag out of the fridge so I’m ready for this evening!

There is only 4 posts and one of them said does anyone believe any of the gold medals in the olympics etc are clean? Which is a fair point.


Enjoy the session.

Tombo2001

Chivito550 wrote: »

I really do hope your cynical view extends to the likes of soccer and tennis, sports with infinitely more money, and far weaker drug testing systems.

Because if you think athletics is 100% dirty, then you better believe those megastar footballers are even more likely to be juiced.

I think you've made a really good point here. I do feel a lot of the people who are just happy to write off athletics are people who are not really into athletics anyway.

So it suits their belief system. They have nothing to lose by slamming athletics, or cycling.

Whereas with the sports they do follow - particularly soccer - they just dont contemplate that doping exists.

On a parallel argument, I remember a strongly anti-Trump American pastor talking about the religious alt-right, and making the point that the 'sins' they get so worked about are the 'sins' that dont affect them personally - homosexuality and abortion. The sins that do affect them - e.g. divorce, adultery - are much lower down their agenda.

walshb

average_runner wrote: »

True, but some ex pro's have made statements hoping that their kids don't go down the road of professional athletics, marathon talk has a good podcast on it.

I did here that....

More the wider/general community. Never heard it, and if I did I'd probably face palm! Ridiculous...

Tombo2001

walshb wrote: »

I did here that....

More the wider/general community. Never heard it, and if I did I'd probably face palm! Ridiculous...

Sports spectating/ Sports playing - two completely separate things.

I think the things that influence a parent on what sports their kids play are:

(I) Availability - what is on offer
(II) What are all the other kids in the class/ area doing (GAA has cleaned up in this regard).
(III) What is the kid naturally disposed to? Some kids dont like team sports; some kids dont like individual sports.
(IV) What sports did the parents themselves play
(V) Other factors - I note that a lot of people encourage their kids to do swimming because its a good life skill, and martial arts because its good for confidence.

Chivito550

Watched last week's episode of Ireland's Greatest Sporting Moment just there. Eamonn Dunphy saying Cycling is tarnished, and that he has a real fear of the same with Track and Field Athletics. Funny, I've never once heard him say anything about football, and he fawns over Barcelona and Spain, who have been linked to dodgey doctors who have worked with Lance Armstrong and other cyclists. You'd think somebody involved in football for so long would be a bit more clued in about doping in this sport. It's funny how journalists are so clueless about the topic when it comes to football.

So can you blame people here for bringing up other sports when a doping discussion comes up, when you've got total idiocy like the above, coming from household names in the "clean" sports, announcing this tripe to a national audience on the national broadcaster.

Alf Veedersane

Chivito550 wrote: »

Watched last week's episode of Ireland's Greatest Sporting Moment just there. Eamonn Dunphy saying Cycling is tarnished, and that he has a real fear of the same with Track and Field Athletics. Funny, I've never once heard him say anything about football, and he fawns over Barcelona and Spain, who have been linked to dodgey doctors who have worked with Lance Armstrong and other cyclists. You'd think somebody involved in football for so long would be a bit more clued in about doping in this sport. It's funny how journalists are so clueless about the topic when it comes to football.

So can you blame people here for bringing up other sports when a doping discussion comes up, when you've got total idiocy like the above, coming from household names in the "clean" sports, announcing this tripe to a national audience on the national broadcaster.

I understand that though. Not many people have heard of Fuentes or Operacion Puerto and it's easy to dismiss the linking of football to PEDs when that's one of the strongest links to there being something more than the odd player testing positive.

So I can see how people think of sports being clean. That allied to people not wanting to believe there are people on PEDs in sports like soccer

S.L.F.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Watched last week's episode of Ireland's Greatest Sporting Moment just there. Eamonn Dunphy saying Cycling is tarnished, and that he has a real fear of the same with Track and Field Athletics. Funny, I've never once heard him say anything about football, and he fawns over Barcelona and Spain, who have been linked to dodgey doctors who have worked with Lance Armstrong and other cyclists. You'd think somebody involved in football for so long would be a bit more clued in about doping in this sport. It's funny how journalists are so clueless about the topic when it comes to football.

So can you blame people here for bringing up other sports when a doping discussion comes up, when you've got total idiocy like the above, coming from household names in the "clean" sports, announcing this tripe to a national audience on the national broadcaster.

I would think there's more chance of them being linked to synthetic drugs than peds judging by the poor performances especially the Premier league

OOnegative

Had her ban doubled to eight years.

pc11

RuMan wrote: »

Also recovery between matches if u were going for La Liga , CL and domestic cup.

This is the answer. Drugs allow for rapid recovery from training, games and especially from injury. Sure, there is a potential boost in an actual game and it's notable how much faster and more athletic players are these days, but the main use for drugs is for recovery.

Soccer is awash with money and pressure from your team and has very lax attitudes to testing - the prefect recipe for a culture where some level of doping is normal.

Athletics suffers because it was the first sport to actually take doping seriously and actually ban top stars. Perversely this leads people to just assume athletics is much dirtier than soccer or tennis.

walshb

The doubling of the ban ends her career. Sends out a stern message.

walshb

And sports like tennis and soccer have quite a percentage of elites that are genuine clean great performers...same as athletics..

Far more greats doing it clean....

Doping in sport is ridiculously overstated and overrated...

Itziger

walshb wrote: »

And sports like tennis and soccer have quite a percentage of elites that are genuine clean great performers...same as athletics..

Far more greats doing it clean....

Doping in sport is ridiculously overstated and overrated...

Unfortunately, we don't know if that is true or not.

What we do know is that it is hard to catch the dopers if they're smart and that some sports (federations/anti-doping bodies) are not too keen to catch their stars.

It's always going to be impossible to put an exact number on what % of elites dope.