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Fitness to practice

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    #32
    Romantic Rose
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭Romantic Rose


    If she was permanent I doubt this would have happened. She would have gotten a telling off and that would be it. I don't know what she was thinking. Just not able to cope with the stresses of the job.

    I must say though that some schools are very good at supporting subs as regards discipline because classes do act up more when the usual classroom teacher is out. Just something to note as it can be hard for subs going into a different classroom every day.


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    #33
    Vronsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    Tom Dunne wrote: »
    Yes, because that is a constructive, progressive and transparent disciplinary process.

    So you think hauling someone before a tribunal for what was poor behaviour on the low end of the scale is the best way to deal with this? No other sector deals with minor misconduct in this way.


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    #34
    2011abc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,686 ✭✭✭2011abc


    In a pro teacher world with a pro teacher ‘council’ this might be ‘on the lower end of scale ‘ but with a principal who doesn’t like you and a parent with an axe to grind less than stellar results , not doing separate class plans , having a noisy class etc could see you end up on Morning Ireland ...


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    #35
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Noveight wrote: »
    Sellotaping the mouths of students sounds like the peak of a full blown breakdown. Unbelievable really.
    We used to have metal clothes pegs put on our mouth in senior infants. I was 4 at the time.The nun went on to become a principal.


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    #36
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,498 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Chancer3001 wrote: »
    Yeah. Big but not that much above average.

    She was travelling school to school in the area
    It is, actually, in primary, learning support groups being withdrawn should be no more than 4 at most.


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    #37
    ForestFire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,390 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    Vronsky wrote: »
    So you think hauling someone before a tribunal for what was poor behaviour on the low end of the scale is the best way to deal with this? No other sector deals with minor misconduct in this way.

    Do you really think a teacher in authority over 10/11yo children cellotaping children's mounts shut is on the low end?

    What about tying there hands together?
    What about tying them to there desks?

    What if the child has asthma?
    Reaction to glue?

    This is physical abuse to children.
    Would it be okay for patents to cellotape their children's mounts shut to keep them quite?


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    #38
    Vronsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    ForestFire wrote: »
    Do you really think a teacher in authority over 10/11yo children cellotaping children's mounts shut is on the low end?

    What about tying there hands together?
    What about tying them to there desks?

    What if the child has asthma?
    Reaction to glue?

    This is physical abuse to children.
    Would it be okay for patents to cellotape their children's mounts shut to keep them quite?
    What about whataboutery.

    If indeed she did do it it was on the low end of misconduct. This should have been dealt with in the school by the principal. I'm no defender of teachers but this as a first case looks an awful lot like putting down a marker.

    There are far more serious abuses going on than this, this should have been dealt with in-house.


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    #39
    Chancer3001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Chancer3001


    From what I've seen it CAN'T just be dealt with by the principal.

    Anybody can report a case to the teaching council and then they decide whether or not to investigate further.

    Not at the discretion of the principal to just give a stern talking to and that be that afaik.

    In this case I think it was the mother who reported it to teaching council

    (Admittedly I could be wrong )


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    #40
    Exiled1
    Registered Users Posts: 337 ✭✭Exiled1


    Seems like an easy example for the Teaching Councils first outing under this legislation.
    Found a 'sub' teacher to nail among a plethora of complaints received. I am not suggesting complaints are either true or verifiable.
    There is a long process as a poster mentioned above and if a teacher engaged with the process, it is unlikely s/he would face a hearing.
    It is just like when the Education Welfare Act was first used to bring a few parents to court (they were from a group not known for school attendance). Of course it was about five years after the law was enacted.
    The idea seems to be - find one easy victim and that will show the law (and TC) is working well.
    Sorry to be cynical but have seen far too much of this happening.


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    #41
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,955 ✭✭✭amacca


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    what if they dont have the skills to do these type of things? so effectively, we should just give up on these kids, and kids with certain issues, should be excluded from our educational system? what benefits would this have on society as a whole?

    Is it having much benefit including them in the current system that isn't resourced properly (in terms of infrastructural/human resources etc etc) to deal with them and seems to be exacerbating some of these students issues and having a detrimental effect on students who will engage with the process?

    I'm sorry but I think there comes a point where inclusivity as wonderful as it sounds comes up against certain harsh realities

    The system is an academic one and the current mantra of inclusivity leaves no safety valve and amounts to bashing very square pegs in some cases into very round holes

    There used to safety valves of trades, leaving early etc etc but less and less so now due in part to societal attitudes (my johnny will go to college - despite the fact he's not suited to it, will never be, will drink his grant money in 1st year and drop out and go and do what he wanted to in the first place anyway) and in part to schools being judged on how many progress to leaving cert etc

    Way too much of the failures of the system is put on teachers shoulders when as a previous poster mentioned its systemic and also imo societal


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    #42
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,955 ✭✭✭amacca


    Exiled1 wrote: »
    Seems like an easy example for the Teaching Councils first outing under this legislation.
    Found a 'sub' teacher to nail among a plethora of complaints received. I am not suggesting complaints are either true or verifiable.
    There is a long process as a poster mentioned above and if a teacher engaged with the process, it is unlikely s/he would face a hearing.
    It is just like when the Education Welfare Act was first used to bring a few parents to court (they were from a group not known for school attendance). Of course it was about five years after the law was enacted.
    The idea seems to be - find one easy victim and that will show the law (and TC) is working well.
    Sorry to be cynical but have seen far too much of this happening.

    If I'm reading this thread correctly

    She had left before the hearing and wasn't teaching anymore?

    So could she even be compelled to be at the hearing? If not then it does just seem to be exactly like what you suggest.

    I also find it strange that sellotape would keep anyone quiet....what age were these kids? There must have been more to it than that surely?

    Also with details like that emerging how anonymous is the process really? Like the OP said I find this process to be a little disquieting.... at least the way this one has panned out.


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    #43
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    Vronsky wrote: »
    So you think hauling someone before a tribunal for what was poor behaviour on the low end of the scale is the best way to deal with this? No other sector deals with minor misconduct in this way.

    Do you genuinely believe we have the full facts at hand? Do we have a full picture of the behaviour of this teacher over the course of her career?

    For this incident we do. For other incidents, we don't.

    The days of bringing somebody in for a bollocking in any industry are long gone. Now, you have to follow due process and show that you followed due process. Though I agree, this should have been handled at school level. Hence why I think there is much more to it.


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    #44
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,503 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Would the first cases not have been around mental health issues and or alcohol that impact on doing the job correctly i.e a person with no insight and who is not willing to get any help.


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    #45
    Vronsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 273 ✭✭Vronsky


    Tom Dunne wrote: »
    Do you genuinely believe we have the full facts at hand? Do we have a full picture of the behaviour of this teacher over the course of her career?

    For this incident we do. For other incidents, we don't.

    The days of bringing somebody in for a bollocking in any industry are long gone. Now, you have to follow due process and show that you followed due process. Though I agree, this should have been handled at school level. Hence why I think there is much more to it.
    If there is more to than this then it should be presented as evidence to the tribunal.


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    #46
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    Vronsky wrote: »
    If there is more to than this then it should be presented as evidence to the tribunal.

    If there is more to this incident, yes it should be presented.

    If there is more to the conduct of this teacher, that has not been recorded and documented, then it cannot be presented as evidence to the tribunal.


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    #47
    Postgrad10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,792 ✭✭✭Postgrad10


    If there were such concerns about this teacher back in 2012, why wasn't there a Garda investigation and child protection officers involved immediately. I don't know why an accusation of something so serious wasn't dealt with until 2017.
    Surely the principal would have reported it there and then. I also think their little piece of evidence as to the location of the accused from a 12 year old neighbour is silly. Did the solicitor or summons delivery person interview a child without a parent present ?


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    #48
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Would the first cases not have been around mental health issues and or alcohol that impact on doing the job correctly i.e a person with no insight and who is not willing to get any help.

    I'd say the TC knew there would be a media circus around the first case. Things will soon die down and most hearings will get little more than a few paragraphs in the indo.
    I reckon they knew she was going to disengage and there would be no fireworks for the media to feast on.


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    #49
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    I'd say the TC knew there would be a media circus around the first case. Things will soon die down and most hearings will get little more than a few paragraphs in the indo.
    I reckon they knew she was going to disengage and there would be no fireworks for the media to feast on.

    The Indo and times have taken to publishing whole school reports for the past two weeks. They even dedicated one article to a particular school in Dublin that got a terrible one. There is a concerted effort by the media to inflame attitudes towards teachers for the past two weeks and I don't think it has happened by chance.


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