Microgeneration Federation

Gumbo

Heard it from someone involved today that there’s a small group lobbying the government for microgeneration feed in tarrifs etc

Don’t know much more.
Will update if I hear more be he said it should be in the papers soon.

Problem here is this will increase the PSO levy a lot. But I would rather see the 500 million each year they give for free to wind energy investors to the Irish People to install Solar PV.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Problem here is this will increase the PSO levy a lot. But I would rather see the 500 million each year they give for free to wind energy investors to the Irish People to install Solar PV.

Doesn't have to increase the PSO Levy at all. Just require all suppliers to give microgenerators an export tariff equal to the average kWh price on the spot market over the billing period.

Evd-Burner

I would go for PV for sure if I got 10c per kwh sent to the grid. It would majorly reduce the payback period of the installation.

Gumbo

My next big purchase will be a battery
Generated nearly 6kwh today, just under 3went to the immersion throughout the day as nobody home. Enough hot water for 2 adult showers and kids washing up so I’m happy for this time of year. Most likely tail off quickly as the weeks go by though.

unkel

Evd-Burner wrote: »

I would go for PV for sure if I got 10c per kwh sent to the grid. It would majorly reduce the payback period of the installation.

You can say that again. Without FIT, payback is just not economical (think 20-30 years), but it seems many people are unable to make realistic calculations on this and go ahead with it anyway. Fair play, but that wouldn't be me.

Depending on the FIT of course, payback can become instantly attractive overnight. I'm certainly looking forward to paving my 100% south facing rear roof with PV panels, when the sums justify me to do it

@kceire - battery solutions are nice, but extremely expensive (still). Is it something you plan to do soon? For most people using the big battery out there (grid) with a FIT, would be a better solution

Water John

The CER is now the CRU, Commission for Regulation of Utilities.
I think they isused some guidance papers for the next round of Generation Connection last week. Haven't reviewed them yet, but did not hear mention of micro, which would be, no surprise, on past performance.

https://www.cru.ie/professional/publications/

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

Doesn't have to increase the PSO Levy at all. Just require all suppliers to give microgenerators an export tariff equal to the average kWh price on the spot market over the billing period.

That would hardly cover the Kwh cost to the consumer.

kceire

kceire wrote: »

My next big purchase will be a battery
Generated nearly 6kwh today, just under 3went to the immersion throughout the day as nobody home. Enough hot water for 2 adult showers and kids washing up so I’m happy for this time of year. Most likely tail off quickly as the weeks go by though.

That's fine but you won't get a battery to store that energy in Summer as you'll have way too much.

Grid is the only solution to micro generation. Unlimited storage !

Water John

Grid has usage, no storage, except one pumped storage site, in Ireland.

unkel

It's more like virtual storage, Water John. As in you sell your excess PV to the grid during the day. It "stores" it for you and then you buy it back from the grid during the night to charge your EV (at hopefully a lower rate than you sold it for)

Water John

Do understand the concept. Problem is ESB, doesn't intend playing ball.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

@kceire - battery solutions are nice, but extremely expensive (still). Is it something you plan to do soon? For most people using the big battery out there (grid) with a FIT, would be a better solution

Yes currently expensive. I believe about €1k per kWh of battery storage. The same guys I was talking to are working on a system that can be retailed at about €300 per kWh of storage.

I won’t pretend to understand the technical stuff, but they did mention something about high capacity capacitors and carbon something. I should have really wrote it down!

Deleted User wrote: »

That's fine but you won't get a battery to store that energy in Summer as you'll have way too much.

Grid is the only solution to micro generation. Unlimited storage !

Yes I understand that a FIT would be more attractive but I won’t hold my breath on it coming in.

ted1

cros13 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Problem here is this will increase the PSO levy a lot. But I would rather see the 500 million each year they give for free to wind energy investors to the Irish People to install Solar PV.

Doesn't have to increase the PSO Levy at all. Just require all suppliers to give microgenerators an export tariff equal to the average kWh price on the spot market over the billing period.

But the admin costs for each domestic supplier is much higher than for bulk suppliers.

Realistically the only fair way without taxing other users is to use a net neutral system. 1Kwh in 1 kWh out

Water John

Is that, the retail price? A reversible meter?
Then that has to be subsidised by somebody. Grid won't pay that, when they might be paying 8 cent, to other sources.

ted1

Water John wrote: »

Is that, the retail price? A reversible meter?
Then that has to be subsidised by somebody. Grid won't pay that, when they might be paying 8 cent, to other sources.

There would be minimal admin and the new meters could do it.

Paying a tariff would require admin and settlements. Off peak costs can be 2c kWh

Water John

Yes but why would suppliers purchase it, if its not the cheapest available, unless it gets priority despatch and then it needs a subsidy. Other wise their is no margin for the supplier. You are asking a supplier to purchase it for 16 cent - 2 cent as per Ted = 14 cent.

I have no problem with that but the process has to be thought through.

ted1

I’m not asking a supplier to purchase it for 16 kWh ( whatvthey buy it fir and sell it fir are different ). I’m saying what goes in goes back. No VAT, no TUOS or DUOS etc( built into residential tariffs). So there’s no actual cost to the supplier. It simply gets taking off the bill.

Perhaps we need to move away from the existing model and look at more disruptive methods such as block chain. And perhaps get local councils in on it. So for me DLRCOCO could pay me for my surplus.

Water John

If it simply gets taken off the bill, ESB or other supplier is paying, their retail price for it. So they have to sell it to another customer at that moment, thus making nothing on the transaction.

ted1

Water John wrote: »

If it simply gets taken off the bill, ESB or other supplier is paying, their retail price for it. So they have to sell it to another customer at that moment, thus making nothing on the transaction.

Making nothing is better than paying out money

And they may be able to claim Credit for the renewable element. So will make something.

Water John

Your looking for a client who is willing to pay a premium for renewables. That's fair enough. I'm not opposing you Ted, just teasing out the concept and reality of the proposal.

I think micro PV gets something like 25 cent in Germany. Stand to be corrected.

ted1

Water John wrote: »

Your looking for a client who is willing to pay a premium for renewables. That's fair enough. I'm not opposing you Ted, just teasing out the concept and reality of the proposal.

I think micro PV gets something like 25 cent in Germany. Stand to be corrected.

Asfaik they pulled the REFIT in Germany and the solar industry has collapsed.
Who’s looking for someone to pay a premium? I’m looking for someone to either not pay or pay a discounted price.

Something like this.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/15/how-a-street-in-brooklyn-is-changing-the-energy-grid-215268

Water John

That's interesting and I would love that, but can't see it fly here.

Surely some of the 500 Million we're giving this year and more next year to wind energy investors with 0 return to the taxpayer. can be used for a FIT and grants for microgeneration ? why is our Government so hell bent on giving so much of our money to foreign investors ?

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely some of the 500 Million we're giving this year and more next year to wind energy investors with 0 return to the taxpayer. can be used for a FIT and grants for microgeneration ? why is our Government so hell bent on giving so much of our money to foreign investors ?

You mention this €500m almost everyday now!

Do you have details on that? I bet if you dig into it there is a rational reason. You can say a lot of things about governments but knowingly giving away that level of dosh for no return isn't what they are about.... they might waste millions (e-voting, failed IT systems and the like) but I can't see them handing over €500m each year for nothing.... please educate me on the €500m.

aliveandkicking

I'm more annoyed at the €115 million a year we give for Bord Na Mona to keep the two peat burning power stations in the midlands going than the wind subsidies. At least wind is clean. The peat subsidy destroys our countryside extracting it and pollutes the air burning it. That €115 million a year would go a long way towards funding a domestic solar REFIT scheme.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

You mention this €500m almost everyday now!

Do you have details on that? I bet if you dig into it there is a rational reason. You can say a lot of things about governments but knowingly giving away that level of dosh for no return isn't what they are about.... they might waste millions (e-voting, failed IT systems and the like) but I can't see them handing over €500m each year for nothing.... please educate me on the €500m.

Are you not able to use Google or just too lazy ?

This is all I could find in 2 seconds !

https://www.bonkers.ie/blog/gas-electricity/higher-electricity-bills-for-all-households-as-pso-levy-to-increase-by-40pc/

Ok 296 Billion and the rest to BNM and biomass.

All this with nothing back to the taxpayer ? all to meet emissions targets.

Why does the state not directly invest in these wind farms so that we don't have to pay foreign companies or am I missing something ?

All this was supposed to make our bills cheaper when all this wind energy started back in the 90's. Bullsh1t !

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you not able to use Google or just too lazy ?

This is all I could find in 2 seconds !

https://www.bonkers.ie/blog/gas-electricity/higher-electricity-bills-for-all-households-as-pso-levy-to-increase-by-40pc/

Ok 296 Billion and the rest to BNM and biomass.

All this with nothing back to the taxpayer ? all to meet emissions targets.

Why does the state not directly invest in these wind farms so that we don't have to pay foreign companies or am I missing something ?

All this was supposed to make our bills cheaper when all this wind energy started back in the 90's. Bullsh1t !

Ah ok, I wasn't sure what exactly the 500m was when you kept mentioning it.... basically you are complaining about the PSO levy?

So, devils advocate.... the reality (I believe) is that renewables don't make financial sense without a subsidy. Much the same way that Solar PV at home doesn't and we are all looking for a FiT... same thing for the large scale wind providers. So, if you didn't have the PSO levy to subsidise renewables we would have a much dirtier grid... no?

It can then be argued that there is a return to the tax payer.... via better air quality... which I presume you do want?!

I agree we should not be subsiding BnM. Whether the state has the wherewithal to own/run wind farms on their own is debateable.

aliveandkicking

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are you not able to use Google or just too lazy ?

This is all I could find in 2 seconds !

https://www.bonkers.ie/blog/gas-electricity/higher-electricity-bills-for-all-households-as-pso-levy-to-increase-by-40pc/

Ok 296 Billion and the rest to BNM and biomass.

All this with nothing back to the taxpayer ? all to meet emissions targets.

Why does the state not directly invest in these wind farms so that we don't have to pay foreign companies or am I missing something ?

All this was supposed to make our bills cheaper when all this wind energy started back in the 90's. Bullsh1t !

So the wind subsidy is €296 million not 500. As for why doesn't the state invest directly in wind - well they do see
https://www.esb.ie/our-businesses/generation-energy-trading-new/wind-energy/wind-energy-projects

At least some of that €296 million goes to the ESB. The ESB in turn paid a dividend of €214 million to the government in last year.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/esb-profits-up-43-as-group-pays-final-dividened-to-state-1.2572354?mode=amp

As usual the reality is more complicated than the throwaway comments like "500 million to wind energy investors"

Ubbquittious

I'd be interested in joining

If you're an overweight man with the right contacts and a nice suit and a few mil in the bank they'll be falling over themselves to let you create a virtual "power company" reselling what the ESB generates at a nice margin but they're happy to screw the individual who actually wants to contribute power to the grid.

Water John

The €500M figure is similar to the £350M on the side of the Brexit Bus.

unkel

Interestingly, Scotland generated 189% of their own electricity use by wind last Month :eek:

Add a bit of solar and they are nearly 100% self sufficient over the full year (using the grid connected to your neigbours like Ireland and England as storage)

Ubbquittious

I wonder at what point giving your spare electricity to the neighbours stops being viable because their renewable sources are producing power at roughly the same time

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Interestingly, Scotland generated 189% of their own electricity use by wind last Month :eek:

Add a bit of solar and they are nearly 100% self sufficient over the full year (using the grid connected to your neigbours like Ireland and England as storage)

Sure Scotland is just a region these days. I’m pretty sure that Cavan , Kerry, Donegal and a few other counties all converted and exported more energy than they consumed

But I’m pretty sure that they relied on energy derived from fossil fuel which was generated in England so they are not self sufficient

alias no.9

Wind energy is unpredictable and needs backup on standby. Microgeneration has a massive multiple of this problem from an operations management point of view, microgeneration is much much more unpredictable, it's worthless to the Grid in terms of availability, it doesn't need backup, it needs 100% redundancy.

Ireland was late to the game with renewables and sustainable energy. In terms of subsidies at a household level, instead of Feed In Tariffs, the SEAI have concentrated on applying subsidies towards measures that reduce energy consumption, an area they have determined gives a better bang for the buck based on learnings in other countries and also an area that can be availed of more easily by a broader section of the population.

Helping many people to make little reductions in energy usage is much more powerful at macro level than offering a handful of people Feed In Tariffs. Much like the folly of Flexifuel Cars some time back, putting a low % biofuels in all petrol and diesel was much more effective than subsidies to a small few with Flexifuel Cars.

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

Sure Scotland is just a region these days. I’m pretty sure that Cavan , Kerry, Donegal and a few other counties all converted and exported more energy than they consumed

That's a silly comparison. Scotland is about the same size and has about the same population (so presumably about the same electricity usage) as the whole of Ireland, north and south together.

In other words, there is absolutely no reason at all why Ireland shouldn't have been 100% renewable electricity by now or in the next few years. As always though we are years, maybe decades behind the rest of the modern world...

We generate 65% max of our total electricity supply on windy days while still exporting up to 100 Mw due to the grid not being able to take more.

Add more turbines and you have the problem of exporting a lot more and the grid can still take 65% max.

Storage is one solution also we need a lot of solar pv to boost green supply on less windy days.

The total wind supply is only about 20% or a bit more I don’t have the exact figure.

ted1

Ireland was late to the game with renewables and sustainable energy.

****************rubbish.

we were the world leaders when we started adrnacrusha and rural electrification. no one came close to investing national budgets and renewable energy.

ted1

unkel wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Sure Scotland is just a region these days. I’m pretty sure that Cavan , Kerry, Donegal and a few other counties all converted and exported more energy than they consumed

That's a silly comparison. Scotland is about the same size and has about the same population (so presumably about the same electricity usage) as the whole of Ireland, north and south together.

In other words, there is absolutely no reason at all why Ireland shouldn't have been 100% renewable electricity by now or in the next few years. As always though we are years, maybe decades behind the rest of the modern world...

we are a peripheral island on the edge of Europe, with 500 mW of electricity, we also have our gas   upply from Russia piped through Scotland, care to detail how much mWs Scotland has in interconnectors?

to

ted1

unkel wrote: »

. As always though we are years, maybe decades behind the rest of the modern world...

define the modern world? who are we behind? Most people compare us to Denmark but that's because they ignore all the fossil and nuclear power that they  import from their neighbours.

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

we were the world leaders when we started adrnacrusha

Absolutely. Because of the strong will of a single man who had friends in high places. Ardnacrusha provided 100% of the country's electricity. 100% renewable.

That was almost 100 years ago though...

Ubbquittious

unkel wrote: »

Absolutely. Because of the strong will of a single man who had friends in high places. Ardnacrusha provided 100% of the country's electricity. 100% renewable.

That was almost 100 years ago though...

Now they're all "ah jaysis we backward Irish are only good for drinking pints of Guinness, lets draft in some big foreign megacorp to do a feasibility study for us and pay them €80 million to find out if it's even possible"

The inferiority complex leads to the impossibility of getting things done.

unkel

Well, Ardnacrusha was also done by a big foreign megacorp

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

Ireland was late to the game with renewables and sustainable energy.

****************rubbish.

we were the world leaders when we started adrnacrusha and rural electrification. no one came close to investing national budgets and renewable energy.

Firstky ardanacrusha was in no way a trend settter , by 1920 , 40 % of all electricity in the US was hydro generated.

Europe led the way in rural electrification , Ireland did not. though Europe was disrupted by ww2 , Ireland only began the rural electrification programme in 1946 and that programmed only officially finished in 1966 , with certain elements only complete by 1976.

Ardacrushna had been debated extensively and examined by the British several , times , the first in 1880. Their conclusion was the massive difference in summer and winter flow rates and the low height drop, was that significant generation capability was not possible all year round

The main opposition argued the Liffey scheme was a far better one to start with.

In any respect , the British were right, ardnacrushna never delivered its orginal capacity , with only 4 high throughput turbines of the 6 originally intended. A low flow 5th turbine was added later

By 1936 that scheme was overtaken by the arguably better scheme involving poulaphoca lake and the Liffey generation.

Many factors meant the river Shannon was first utilised , it had better lobbyists , it was the scheme the previous British administration did not favour , instead favouring the Liffey scheme and the work would benefit an impoverished west of Ireland rather then the pale orientsted scheme of the liffey valley

BoatMad

Microgeneration FIT has no economic basis. In all cases were it existed or still exists, it's largely in effect a subsidy to foster solar PV.

A 1kwh in versus 1kwh is unsustainable as it prices micro-generation at the retail cost of a unit which is clearly nonsense , all it is is a cross subsidy from electricity users not having a FIT

Ultimately solar PV will be cheap enough to get reasonable returns irrespective of whether fit exists or not.

Ireland tried FIT when the Green Party was in power on a limited trial basis , and which the then energy regulator raised concerns. It was not continued.

ted1

If you look at the cost the government spent on Ardnacrusha as a % if the National budget then you’ll agree that ireland was a world leader and truly committed.


As for 1Kwh in 1 kWh it doesn’t cost the utility actual money so you comparing the costs is incorrect

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

If you look at the cost the government spent on Ardnacrusha as a % if the National budget then you’ll agree that ireland was a world leader and truly committed.

That was more a reflection on the poverty of the states budget in the early years of the state then any " world leader " status in electricity

Ardnscrushna was not world leading , nor particularly sucessful , nor in fact an early pioneer. Ireland was actually quite late to electrification

However it did have significant propaganda value to the fledgling state and that is the main reason the Shannon scheme was pushed and " glorified "

As for 1Kwh in 1 kWh it doesn’t cost the utility actual money so you comparing the costs is incorrect

SolarPV micro generation has no benefits for the grid , it actually causes issues , that results in extra costs

The DSO is also not a generator nor a TSO so micro generation causes in effect the DSO to go into competition with itself.

If you generate a unit at a time when the DSO/retail suppliers doesn't need it ( or the spot price is close to zero ) and you consume an equivalent unit when the price is greatest ( or with smart meter tarrfs, the retail return is greatest ) , then in effect the DSO / other users are subsidising your micro generation

That's not to say microgeneration operating subsidies shouldn't exist, but not on the back of other electricity users.

The only economic argument is that microgeneration should receive wholesale spot generating pricing , anything else is a subsidy. But in practical terms , microgeneration doesn't fit into " generator " status so the value to the grid is very little

Ireland is however preparing to boosts large scale solarvPV farms , ultimately this is the future

ted1

I fully agree to having no FIT however I don’t view 1Kwh in as 1Kwh out.

you may need to reconsider your opinion on the TSO being a generator. The EWIC more or less acts as a generator.

Water John

With Ireland coming out as the worst in Europe at tackling climate change, we would want to gear up any form of renewable energy we can.

We talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, Denis Naughten.

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

I fully agree to having no FIT however I don’t view 1Kwh in as 1Kwh out.

you may need to reconsider your opinion on the TSO being a generator. The EWIC more or less acts as a generator.

I see FIT purely in the context of subsidising local PV generation, and therefore it boils down to public policy on micro-renewables over larger scale renewable generators.

ok one can argue the EWIC is a generator, but it's rather semantics.

If you allow a microgeneration system to " time shift " , which is what 1kwh in 1kwh out does, then you are clearly subsiding the provision of such power. It's simply a FIT by another name.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

With Ireland coming out as the worst in Europe at tackling climate change, we would want to gear up any form of renewable energy we can.

We talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, Denis Naughten.

The CRU has actually stated that Ireland has technically too much renewable energy at present. Wind farms are regukary shut down due to insufficient demand.

Hence the arguments for adding micro generation which would actually exacerbate the situation are rather feeble.

There is an argument for large scale solarvPV , the only argument for domestic microgeneration must be based on real costs of usage and not any form of cross subsidy.

Irelands issues in climate change actually stem from agriculture and unlike more heavily industrialsed countries which can either carbon trade or institute significant industrial emmission reduction schemes, we can't.

So until it's politically acceptable to challange the emissions from farming , Ireland is unlikely to make significant progress in greenhouse reductions n the near and medium future