Alan Shearer - Football, Dementia and Me...

Was on Newstalk's Off The Ball promoting his documentary on BBC next Sunday night, examining the links between heading the ball and brain damage.

The issues raised by impacts to the head in sport was brought into sharp focus by the NFL and boxing, but seems to be a growing awareness in football started by the well publicised findings after the decline and death of Jeff Astle. The conclusions, not so much in terms of science and medecine, but more in what it might mean for football, should be interesting.

HalloweenJack

No surprise, really.

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of heading the ball myself when playing. I'm not a fan of the sensation, especially if it's a hard ball.

IIRC, heading the ball is banned at schoolboy level in some places, the States maybe? I can see that spreading if conclusive research comes out.

Ashbourne hoop

HalloweenJack wrote: »

No surprise, really.

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of heading the ball myself when playing. I'm not a fan of the sensation, especially if it's a hard ball.

IIRC, heading the ball is banned at schoolboy level in some places, the States maybe? I can see that spreading if conclusive research comes out.

Yeah banned for children aged 10 and under. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/us-soccer-ban-heading-the-ball-for-children-over-fears-of-concussion-and-head-injuries-a6728341.html

Should be an interesting programme, although footballs are a lot lighter than in Astle's time.

lawred2

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Yeah banned for children aged 10 and under. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/us-soccer-ban-heading-the-ball-for-children-over-fears-of-concussion-and-head-injuries-a6728341.html

Should be an interesting programme, although footballs are a lot lighter than in Astle's time.

they aren't - this was a specific point raised by Shearer.

they are the exact same weight when dry. The issue was when wet as the old balls were like a sponge for water.

Ashbourne hoop

lawred2 wrote: »

they aren't - this was a specific point raised by Shearer.

they are the exact same weight when dry. The issue was when wet as the old balls were like a sponge for water.

Really ? Wasn't aware of that. Thanks

lawred2

Ashbourne hoop wrote: »

Really ? Wasn't aware of that. Thanks

Either was I. Would have presumed that the old balls were much heavier. All the lads in studio were surprised as well.

Greybottle

There was a study done in Germany a few years back and even when compared to the old wet ball there is no significant difference.

They did tests and when you consider that the old wet ball wouldn't travel as fast as the new dry one the difference was fairly small.

The old F=MV equation comes into play here.

Force = Mass multiplied by Velocity

lawred2

Greybottle wrote: »

There was a study done in Germany a few years back and even when compared to the old wet ball there is no significant difference.

They did tests and when you consider that the old wet ball wouldn't travel as fast as the new dry one the difference was fairly small.

The old F=MV equation comes into play here.

Force = Mass multiplied by Velocity

hmmm is that not presuming that the ball travels in a straight line?

It usually follows an arc - and some arcs more pronounced than others i.e. a goal keepers kick out.

So the old wet ball would actually accelerate due to gravity much more than one of today's light footballs right down on top of some lad's head.

Imagine if Packie Bonner got hold of one of those old balls for a kick out..

tigger123

Isn't this the reason Kevin Doyle announced his retirement last month?

Greybottle

lawred2 wrote: »

hmmm is that not presuming that the ball travels in a straight line?

It usually follows an arc - and some arcs more pronounced than others i.e. a goal keepers kick out.

So the old wet ball would actually accelerate due to gravity much more than one of today's light footballs right down on top of some lad's head.

Imagine if Packie Bonner got hold of one of those old balls for a kick out..

They tested kicks from footballers, included all kinds of direct shots as well as in and outswingers. IIRC there was a 10% difference between a new fast ball and an older heavier one. Some balls arc, but are whipped in very fast. They used a speed trap to measure them BTW.

Mr.Nice Guy

HalloweenJack wrote: »

No surprise, really.

Admittedly, I'm not a fan of heading the ball myself when playing. I'm not a fan of the sensation, especially if it's a hard ball.

I used to hate heading the ball myself. I remember being on a team when I was about 8 and I had this tendency to always close my eyes whenever I'd have to head the ball.

Part of the training I recall was corner practice where they would put a bunch of us in front of the goalposts and start sending in corners. When you're that age the goalposts seem like towers. It seems pointless looking back to be teaching kids of this age this type of stuff. Working on passing and technical skills is surely far more sensible.

Harry Palmr

...the mere fact there's an expression about someone being a right "headtheball" should tell us something

wonga77

As a 6ft 2" striker, I was/am often the target of many a high ball. I hate heading in general and have come across more than my fair share of center backs who would be half f*cked after clearing a few high balls.
I remember 1 game in particular where I misjudged the flight of one of our keepers hoofballs, down right on the top of my head and I was seeing stars for a few minutes. Its a horrible feeling and im surprised that the health and safety brigade havent kicked up a fuss before now

Never got the feeling from heading footballs, but heading GAA balls during the inevitable "no proper football, it'll have to do" kick around would have you seeing stars.

Tigerandahalf

It makes you wonder should players in a defensive wall be allowed to protect their head with a raised arm to just cover the head area.

The speed that some pros can kick the ball at it is incredible. We have seen guys get knocked straight out from a direct shot to the head.

Can you imagine if the header was completely eliminated. Guys would be wrestling trying to receive a kickout onto their chest. Corners would be different for sure.

lawred2

wonga77 wrote: »

As a 6ft 2" striker, I was/am often the target of many a high ball. I hate heading in general and have come across more than my fair share of center backs who would be half f*cked after clearing a few high balls.
I remember 1 game in particular where I misjudged the flight of one of our keepers hoofballs, down right on the top of my head and I was seeing stars for a few minutes. Its a horrible feeling and im surprised that the health and safety brigade havent kicked up a fuss before now

Maybe if less people regarded them as a brigade then they might have

deaddonkey15

Greybottle wrote: »

There was a study done in Germany a few years back and even when compared to the old wet ball there is no significant difference.

They did tests and when you consider that the old wet ball wouldn't travel as fast as the new dry one the difference was fairly small.

The old F=MV equation comes into play here.

Force = Mass multiplied by Velocity

Force is mass multiplied by acceleration.

Momentum is mass multiplied by velocity.

dfx-

Are there other players from Astle's time who have struggled similarly? One case is terrible and all that, but there a lot of players heading the ball then and since, so there should be lots of retired players in similar danger.

AllGunsBlazing

Nobby Stiles would be another high profile ex-England player that is also suffering with dementia

If there is a genuine link between heading the ball and suffering with this illness in later life then I'd imagine centrebacks would be particularly at risk?

Tigerandahalf

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Nobby Stiles would be another high profile ex-England player that is also suffering with dementia

If there is a genuine link between heading the ball and suffering with this illness in later life then I'd imagine centrebacks would be particularly at risk?

No guarantee that he wouldn't have developed alzheimers without playing football. It is a hereditiary disease.

Concussion is a different matter.

Beasty

3 of the surviving 1966 World Cup winning team have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's - Wilson, Stiles and Peters.

PhlegmyMoses

wonga77 wrote: »

As a 6ft 2" striker, I was/am often the target of many a high ball. I hate heading in general and have come across more than my fair share of center backs who would be half f*cked after clearing a few high balls.
I remember 1 game in particular where I misjudged the flight of one of our keepers hoofballs, down right on the top of my head and I was seeing stars for a few minutes. Its a horrible feeling and im surprised that the health and safety brigade havent kicked up a fuss before now

I was a striker and I used to get similar sensations. Until we got a bit better and older and started playing out from the back etc, every goal kick from ground and hand would come up to the strikers. I remember having mild headaches after one too many mitre deltas coming down on my head and defo got the stars sensation if I didn't catch it flush on the forehead.

Demosthenese

Love heading the ball (Centre Half ) ... nothing like meeting it square at peak point and sending it away. When i was younger though i was afraid of my life to head the old Mitre ball or O Neills balls - like 13-15yrs - the probably is usually technique though. Most people that fear heading "allow" the ball to hit them and kind of shrug away, instead of coming to meet it and catch it square on forehead. I've been concussed a few times and the same sensation from heading the ball on top of your head is from clashing heads. Wasn't nice!

I do understand why there's a concern, but less and less headers are part of the game from what i see these days at underage level cos the old punt style is fading away. Balls are lighter at underage levels too.

Personally i think that it's grand and that we should maybe just ensure that underage the players are using correct technique. Can't remove it from football anyway!

Fromvert

If there's links between them it'll definitely be outlawed at under age. And I was definitely stunned a few times heading the ball when I was younger.

I do wonder how much damage we do to ourselves from day to day things though. Does the vibrations from running have an affect on our brain, does the guy swinging a hammer all day get affecting by it etc etc. As you don't need to hit in the head to get concussed/shake your brain about.

Where will we draw the line in willing to do jobs that have adverse affects on our health though. As Shearer mentioned he was willing to accept his back, knees, ankles etc being jacked up from pro sports, will pro athletes accept that brain trauma is also a potential side affect? Will we take heading out of the game or will players just rarely head the ball in training etc as that is where most of the damage would be done, heading it 1000's a time a month like Shearer for example.

dd972

Don't think we'd miss heading if it was banned, it is called football after all.

BeepBeep67

Liverpool's defenders just ahead of their time it seems.

death1234567

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

No guarantee that he wouldn't have developed alzheimers without playing football. It is a hereditiary disease

No its not. If it's in your family you have a slightly higher risk factor of developing it but it's not hereditiary.

chicorytip

Deleted User wrote:

The issues raised by impacts to the head in sport was brought into sharp focus by the NFL and boxing, but seems to be a growing awareness in football started by the well publicised findings after the decline and death of Jeff Astle. The conclusions, not so much in terms of science and medecine, but more in what it might mean for football, should be interesting.

It's impossible to conclude definitively whether Astle's dementia resulted solely as a consequence of heading a football. He just happened to be an ex-player who developed the condition. It's impossible, also, to conclude definitively whether Muhammad Ali's Parkinsonism resulted solely as a consequence of taking too many punches. Many retired boxers exhibit no impairment of brain function whatsoever.
Heading a football used to be one of the games great skills and there have been many great exponents over the years who possessed the proper technique to do so i.e. tensing the neck muscles and attacking the ball to direct it in a certain direction. This has virtually died out in the modern game. In the English premiership, for example, I can hardly think of one player with really outstanding aerial ability. Andy Carroll has been mooted as such but when you watch him he never jumps his height, as they say, and his headers lack real power and accuracy.

noodler

Heading is part of the game for me.

I am surprised how many feel it is expendable.

I cant really see anyway around it.

Been a centre half for about eight years at senior level, I have to admit it can indeed hurt in the rain if you make the wrong connection but more than half of headers in a game are light enough, from a lobbed pass or arced cross.

It really is the punts from an opposition goalkeeper coming down from orbit that hurt more.

chicorytip

chicorytip wrote: »

It's impossible to conclude definitively whether Astle's dementia resulted solely as a consequence of heading a football.

But the forums that will be called on to do so, inquests, courts etc. do not require conclusive proof, but proof on the balance of probabilities, so the inquest for Astle linked his condition with heading a football. And of course the thing club owners, the FAs, FIFA etc. will want to avoid is liability, where again the proof need not be definitively conclusive.

NIMAN

I used to love heading the ball, would practice getting crosses fired in from the wings. Used to do that in my early teens.

Now, where did I leave those keys?

Beasty

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

No guarantee that he wouldn't have developed alzheimers without playing football. It is a hereditiary disease.

Concussion is a different matter.

I'm not sure concussion is that different. Anyone who feels in any way disoriented after heading the ball has suffered a brain injury (even if they feel there is an apparent rapid recovery). Now it's a few decades since I played, and I did play centre half as a kid. I don't recall in any way suffering like that after heading the ball (did suffer a significant concussion when playing rugby, but in those days you just carried on and no-one even spotted I had a head injury - first I can recall is walking round the dressing room wondering what day it was)

However I assume the "concussion" you refer to is that arising from a clash of heads, and I for one have not seen any conclusive evidence that these issues are caused by repeated heading of the ball, or clashing heads a few times over a career. Statistics seem to point very strongly to an issue, but unfortunately both potential "culprits" have heading as a core feature.

Football has improved it's approach somewhat over recent times, but I do think there is a strong argument for a "blood bin" to allow players to be properly assessed pretty much after every clash of heads. Yes it means a change in allowing temporary subs, but that's better than changing the basics of the game by removing one of its fundamental features

FatherTed

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

No guarantee that he wouldn't have developed alzheimers without playing football. It is a hereditiary disease.

Concussion is a different matter.

No - having a parent who had Alzheimer's increases the likelihood of getting it yourself but that is not always the case.

Mr.Nice Guy

Reminder that this programme is on BBC 1 tonight at 10.30 pm. It should be interesting.

Richard Hillman

Used to always avoid heading balls like kick outs and crosses. I would miss-time my jump to make it look like a tried. When I did head the ball it would be a massive thump, followed by dizzyness and a headache for a minute or 2.

What needs to be accepted is that everybody has a different tolerance to blows to the head due to the thickness of the membrane protecting our brains. In Boxing or MMA its called a Good Chin. Some people can take blows for days and others get flattened by a regular blow. It's the same in all walks of life. Some people can head balls for days, some cant. It's nothing to do with being "hard". You can be tough as nails but simply cannot take blows to the head

Richard Hillman

dd972 wrote: »

Don't think we'd miss heading if it was banned, it is called football after all.

The game would turn into a bad game of rugby. Garryowen after Garyowen of putting the defence under pressure with highballs. We'd have to bring in a rule like Icing in ice hocking.

Guy:Incognito

With all the stuff around concussions in the last few years with rugby, and more recently football being put in the spotlight ( afaik equestrian is the worst but gets very little mention from what I see) , how does any boxer come out and not end up with dementia, cte etc at the end of their career? Surely with the focus of boxing being punching in the head, they must be taking the worst damage by far?

~Rebel~

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The game would turn into a bad game of rugby. Garryowen after Garyowen of putting the defence under pressure with highballs. We'd have to bring in a rule like Icing in ice hocking.

Not a change I see coming, but hypothetically if you wanted to avoid that, you could perhaps have a net 10 feet or so above the pitch. Have played on astro 7-a-side pitches with that... bloody annoying at times, but it keeps the ball on the deck.

bmm

Under 10's should not be heading footballs. Simple!

~Rebel~

bmm wrote: »

Under 10's should not be heading footballs. Simple!

Yeah... was a bit sniffy about the American appraoch to begin with, but to be fair it makes a lot of sense. No heading U-10, and only in training to learn technique between 11 and 13. Only in matches after that point.

lassykk

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Have played on astro 7-a-side pitches with that... bloody annoying at times, but it keeps the ball on the deck.

This is the most bloody annoying thing in the world. I played an indoor competition once that wouldn't allow the ball over 10 foot... I next to never head the ball but pinging a ball up to someone for a volley is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game so hate that sort of rule (I'm aware that with the right level of ability this is likely still possible with the 10 foot rule).

I don't honestly know what the solution is to this. As I said I rarely head the ball anyway so doesn't affect me and only play indoor these days so no big punts from a goalkeeper coming down with ice on them!

Father Hernandez

Recorded this last might, worth the watch?

fergiesfolly

Watched it last night.
John Terry was asked about whether his own young daughter headed the ball( she's in the kids academy at Chelsea) and he said he tries to teach her the proper technique and as no problem with her doing it.
Pros and ex-pros seem to be turning a blind eye to it from what I saw last night.
I loved heading the ball when I played(centre half) and I practiced loads on making good contact , timing the jump, tensing up neck muscles and protecting myself from flailing arms. Never had a concussion or headache, but after watching last night, I'd think twice about letting a young child head a ball.

~Rebel~

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Watched it last night.
John Terry was asked about whether his own young daughter headed the ball( she's in the kids academy at Chelsea) and he said he tries to teach her the proper technique and as no problem with her doing it.
Pros and ex-pros seem to be turning a blind eye to it from what I saw last night.
I loved heading the ball when I played(centre half) and I practiced loads on making good contact , timing the jump, tensing up neck muscles and protecting myself from flailing arms. Never had a concussion or headache, but after watching last night, I'd think twice about letting a young child head a ball.

Yeah, that piece bit was a bit weird to watch... he says the above, and then Shearer points out that kids are the most at risk, and asks if that would change Terry's position on it. He just says, nah, he'll keep telling his daughter to go in for it until there's definitive proof of any danger.

Tigerandahalf

death1234567 wrote: »

No its not. If it's in your family you have a slightly higher risk factor of developing it but it's not hereditiary.

I know a family of 6 and 5 of the siblings developed alzheimer's in their later years.