Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

GLaDOS

I would never judge anyone for aborting a DS child. It's a heart breaking decision with life changing consequences.

Can you really blame people for not wanting the life portrayed in the article posted earlier?

A Little Pony

WhiteRoses wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

Horrifying comment. You have never lived life with a relative with a disability to be saying things like that.
How dare you dictate what one parent can cope with over another.

As always people are concerned about people aborting babies with these conditions but don't give a monkeys about them when they're born.
Instead of judging families who have decided to terminate a pregnancy why don't you volunteer/campaign for your local Downs Syndrome charity?
After all, they're just like everyone else and many live a perfectly normal life. Shouldn't be a bother to you.

I say this as someone who has a sibling with a severe disability that requires round the clock supervision even as a near adult. A man who will never know independence. We love him so much but he's very hard work.

My mam is with him 24/7 as his carer and she's amazing. Never complains. She has never uttered a word about regrets but jesus I wouldn't blame her for not choosing a life like this.

How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.

bucketybuck

A Little Pony wrote: »

You don't need to live an "independent life" to live a good life for as long as possible and to get the enjoyments out of life. We are here once and some don't want to give down syndrome people any chance of experiencing life, even with it's negatives.  What about two down syndrome people meeting each other, getting married, having children?

What about the people who need to give up their own lives to facilitate these high ideals?

Does your sympathy not extend to those who through no fault of their own have to shoulder that burden?

suicide_circus

They do it to female foetuses in China and India, why not DS foetuses in Europe?

SusieBlue

A Little Pony wrote: »

How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.

Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line

A Little Pony

WhiteRoses wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

How do you know that? To defend the right to life for down syndrome people is not something I am ashamed of, far from it.

Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line

I stick by everything I said, I disagree with it ethically and morally. If you want to do it and it's legal, crack away, I can't agree with it and unlikely ever will.

Rory28

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Because I can't imagine anyone who has walked the walk ever being so insensitive and judgmental towards a fellow parent/relative who is going through the same.

It is your right to defend of course, but you should be a bit more compassionate and realise not everyone is cut out for raising a disabled child. There is no shame in it, despite your efforts using emotive language. Suggesting its murder is just disgusting.

I also note you completely disregarded the rest of my post and just focused on the first line

She/He is not interested in discussing it with you. They just want to show how morally superior they are by defending the life of an innocent, unborn not even fully formed fetus.

You can't debate with someone so high up on their horse.

The Backwards Man

topper75 wrote: »

The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.

If by some misfortune you knew that from tomorrow you had to live the rest of your life being completely and utterly dependent on the 24/7 care of your aging parents, how would you feel today?

end of the road

Doltanian wrote: »

The hypocrisy of Left-Wing Liberals they will defend the life of killers and murderers but gladly take away the life of innocents whether they are healthy or otherwise.

plenty of "left wing liberals" disagree with baby murder.

SusieBlue

A Little Pony wrote: »

I stick by everything I said, I disagree with it ethically and morally. If you want to do it and it's legal, crack away, I can't agree with it and unlikely ever will.

Great, that's your choice. If someone else was to choose not to give birth to a disabled child, they can crack away, as you said.
Its neither here nor there whether you agree or not because its none of your business.
I'm also pro choice so at least we can agree on something

c_man

seamus wrote: »

The harsh truth is that while our human condition brings us to retroactively "cherish" life experiences, even the hard ones, that doesn't mean everyone will or should cherish those same experiences. And that they shouldn't be forced to endure them.

Wow. The arrogance to think that you know which lives are worth living and which aren't. Wow.

LadyMacBeth_

Do the people who think the women that terminate are selfish ever stop and think that maybe the women are thinking of the foetus and not just of themselves? I never understand that. I have Cystic Fibrosis and I often hear of parents of children with CF going on to have more kids, knowing they have a 25% chance of having CF. The arguments the parents usually give are things like ''we won't see them any differently'', or ''We'll love them just the same and we know what treatment is involved already'' etc etc. I wonder how much they are considering the pain that the child will be in. DS has an intellectual disability aspect but it also comes with a lot of medical issues, and maybe women who terminate are considering the impact of these medical issues on their future child as well as everything else.

optogirl

c_man wrote: »

Wow. The arrogance to think that you know which lives are worth living and which aren't. Wow.

The arrogance to think that your morality should be enforced on everybody.

kylith

topper75 wrote: »

The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.

How isn't it?

The parents won't have do deal with the struggle of a child with a severe disability. The other children in the family, either present or future, won't have their care limited by their parents' need to give so much time and care to a disabled sibling. The aborted foetus will never know the difference.

Mickeroo

Every sperm is sacred.

MrPudding

end of the road wrote: »

plenty of "left wing liberals" disagree with baby murder.

I would probably be considered to be a left wing liberal and I disagree with baby murder, though I am not sure what that has to do with this thread, as it is not talking about baby murder.

MrP

Tayschren

This eight amendment debate is going to be fvcking dirty, narrative driving attempts like this thread are already muddying the waters

Pro choice better buck up or they will loose it to the crazies

Wombatman

Have they developed a test for gingers yet?

A Little Pony

kylith wrote: »

topper75 wrote: »

The Me generation just took it one level higher, and feigns a 'best for all concerned' line of patter in doing so.

How isn't it?

The parents won't have do deal with the struggle of a child with a severe disability. The other children in the family, either present or future, won't have their care limited by their parents' need to give so much time and care to a disabled sibling. The aborted foetus will never know the difference.

Ancient Sparta had similar views, they just bashed them off rocks. If the baby is born at 27 weeks you can't murder it, but if it's still in the womb at 27 weeks you personally agree with aborting it? Do you not find that an odd view to take?

harr

harr wrote: »

A town not far from me had a very large care home and it was very common practice for parents to leave disabled here and never see them again and not all children left here were seriously disabled children ..a lot the residents are in their 40,s and 50,s now so the practice of giving up children happened well into the 80,s .
Parents were actively encouraged by nuns ( who ran the Home) and priests to give up the children...the same people who start preaching when abortion is mentioned..

Maybe asylum was a bit of a harsh word, but it's how it was mentioned to me by other people my parents' age. They were effectively locked up. I'd see many who would be older DS and you know they likely spent most of their lives in something like those until recently.

ohnonotgmail

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ancient Sparta had similar views, they just bashed them off rocks. If the baby is born at 27 weeks you can't murder it, but if it's still in the womb at 27 weeks you personally agree with aborting it? Do you not find that an odd view to take?

who has mentioned abortions at 27 weeks? just another strawman.

kylith

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ancient Sparta had similar views, they just bashed them off rocks. If the baby is born at 27 weeks you can't murder it, but if it's still in the womb at 27 weeks you personally agree with aborting it? Do you not find that an odd view to take?

No.

And abortions due to DS are generally preformed earlier than 27 weeks anyway.

And Spartans didn't bash infants off rocks, that was Christians. Spartans let them die of exposure. Not much nicer, but less gruesome.

A Little Pony

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ancient Sparta had similar views, they just bashed them off rocks. If the baby is born at 27 weeks you can't murder it, but if it's still in the womb at 27 weeks you personally agree with aborting it? Do you not find that an odd view to take?

who has mentioned abortions at 27 weeks?  just another strawman.

 Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

kylith

A Little Pony wrote: »

 Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

I disagree with people not sticking to the topic at hand and instead using whataboutery and straw man arguments.

bucketybuck

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ancient Sparta had similar views, they just bashed them off rocks. If the baby is born at 27 weeks you can't murder it, but if it's still in the womb at 27 weeks you personally agree with aborting it? Do you not find that an odd view to take?

I see you ignored my earlier post.

Why do you care so little about the lives and feelings of those who suddenly find out that they have to give up their entire lives and become full time carers?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Hector Savage wrote: »

Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

How do you explain the large percentage of women who are anti abortion. Are they self hating women?

ohnonotgmail

A Little Pony wrote: »

Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

what does have to do with the thread? whataboutery at its finest

A Little Pony

kylith wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

 Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

I disagree with people not sticking to the topic at hand and instead using whataboutery and straw man arguments.

So you agree with abortion of DS babies at 27 weeks, that is fine. At least you are honest and support on demand abortion.

SusieBlue

A Little Pony wrote: »

 Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

I think you'll find most would bat an eyelid at 27 week abortions. I haven't seen a single group, charity or politician, or boards member campaigning in support of aborting at that gestation.

I don't see how its relevant anyway as the discussion at hand is abortion of babies with severe disabilities.

You are exaggerating intentionally and using emotive examples to get a reaction and to make others feel bad for the beliefs they hold.

Calling it murder and bringing up people smashing babies heads off rocks are just two examples of you being manipulative in that sense.

Rory28

A Little Pony wrote: »

So you agree with abortion of DS babies at 27 weeks, that is fine. At least you are honest and support on demand abortion.

wow. just wow.

kylith

A Little Pony wrote: »

So you agree with abortion of DS babies at 27 weeks, that is fine. At least you are honest and support on demand abortion.

Please point out where I said that.

Also, please answer bucketybuck's question.

Knine

I have a child with a very rare genetic disorder. She is a lovely fun loving sweet little lady but every single day I worry about what will happen her if she outlives me or something should happen me. It has been a very tough few years. She goes through things no child ever should & then her little school pal passed away. Yet every day she wakes up with a big smile.

In a situation such as the OP mentioned I don't honestly know what I would do.

circadian

This test is currently in trials in Ireland. If you're currently pregnant you can sign up for it.

A Little Pony

WhiteRoses wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

 Some wouldn't bat an eyelid at 27 weeks. Do you disagree with 27 week abortions?

I think you'll find most would bat an eyelid at 27 week abortions. I haven't seen a single group, charity or politician, or boards member campaigning in support of aborting at that gestation.

I don't see how its relevant anyway as the discussion at hand is abortion of babies with severe disabilities.

You are exaggerating intentionally and using emotive examples to get a reaction and to make others feel bad for the beliefs they hold.

Calling it murder and bringing up people smashing babies heads off rocks are just two examples of you being manipulative in that sense.

Why? If you believe in abortion then time limits shouldn't matter as the end result is still the same, the ethics behind it remain the same. The reason some don't openly support it is because it is harder to sell to the Irish people who have a hard time believing in it in any form anyway.

Rory28

A Little Pony wrote: »

Why? If you believe in abortion then time limits shouldn't matter as the end result is still the same, the ethics behind it remain the same. The reason some don't openly support it is because it is harder to sell to the Irish people who have a hard time believing in it in any form anyway.

You keep making assumptions about posters. Most would agree that at 27 weeks it is no longer just a fetus. Move on from this and stick to the topic.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

January

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Lifesitenews. Says it all really. The abortion rate in Iceland for pregnancies that have screened positive for DS is not 100%.

http://icelandmag.visir.is/article/fact-check-no-iceland-not-systematically-eradicating-down-syndrome

seamus

c_man wrote: »

Wow. The arrogance to think that you know which lives are worth living and which aren't. Wow.

That's funny you say that, because if you'd read my post you'd know that's exact opposite of what I was saying.

Whereas clearly you're arrogant enough to believe that all pregnancies should be brought to term no matter what the impact of that may be.

ohnonotgmail

jacksie66 wrote: »

The links the OP provided are from a pro life website. Probably take them with a massive pinch of salt..

with my blood pressure? you trying kill me?

CerebralCortex

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Either a) your taking the piss b) you have a profoundly weird ethical outlook or c) a holy Joe with no propensity for reasoning about suffering outside of the confines of religious deontology. Also how can it be genocide? Downs Syndrome sufferers are not an ethnic group?

evil_seed

They're killing innocent children????
Oh wait... no... abortions.
And Genocide? You mean Eurythmics... I mean eugenics

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MrPudding

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My favourite toothpaste.

MrP

end of the road

MrPudding wrote: »

I would probably be considered to be a left wing liberal and I disagree with baby murder, though I am not sure what that has to do with this thread, as it is not talking about baby murder.

MrP

i disagree, that's exactly what it is talking about. innocent unborn children being killed just for being disabled. there is no justification for it and we must insure it does not happen in ireland.

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topper75

optogirl wrote: »

The arrogance to think that your morality should be enforced on everybody.

Though you may think it quaint, in a swirling world of debate with relative-this and grey-that, I am quite happy to settle on 'killing people is wrong' as a pole star.

CerebralCortex

A Little Pony wrote: »

People with DS are human beings like everyone else and deserve to have a chance at life and many can live a perfectly normal and loving life. It's just murder. Just say you don't want down syndrome people in the world and be done with it, at least it's an intellectually honest argument.

I don't want any more phenotypes afflicted with DS to develop, honestly.

The Legend Of Kira

Frank Stephens gave this speech recently about screening for down syndrome & abortion of babies with down syndrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJEoRhkapw

SusieBlue

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier because I think its very relevant.

A lot of people who are anti-abortion under any circumstances, have no interest in what happens to these babies when they're born.

Instead of judging these women/couples who make the heartbreaking decision to terminate, why aren't they helping the disadvantaged children in their community? Volunteering to look after disabled children so their parents can get some respite?
Offering donations to stressed, over worked parents who are financially broke and struggling making it to the end of the month? Campaigning to TDs for more social housing for all the families on social welfare who can't afford their own homes?
Foster a few children to take some pressure off the system?

Oh wait. They don't. Because they don't care. But no one is allowed any abortions no matter what, lest we forget.