Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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CerebralCortex

topper75 wrote: »

Though you may think it quaint, in a swirling world of debate with relative-this and grey-that, I am quite happy to settle on 'killing people is wrong' as a pole star.

You haven't heard of this then

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpf6KcWYyw

wakka12

Cringed at the title
I can fully understand and respect why somebody would abort a down syndrome pregnancy, as it will take over your life, youll spend your entire life worrying about them, and they will never be independent , and some peopel arent prepared to change their lives for that, and I have massive respect for people who do raise down syndrome children.

As for me, I dont know what Id do. I havnt made up my mind, I hope I dont have to make that very difficult decision ever in my life

January

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree, that's exactly what it is talking about. innocent unborn children being killed just for being disabled. there is no justification for it and we must insure it does not happen in ireland.

Nope. That's not what we're talking about.

It already happens btw, we just export the problem. NIBYism at it's finest.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier because I think its very relevant.

A lot of people who are anti-abortion under any circumstances, have no interest in what happens to these babies when they're born.

Instead of judging these women/couples who make the heartbreaking decision to terminate, why aren't they helping the disadvantaged children in their community? Volunteering to look after disabled children so their parents can get some respite?
Offering donations to stressed, over worked parents who are financially broke and struggling making it to the end of the month? Campaigning to TDs for more social housing for all the families on social welfare who can't afford their own homes?
Foster a few children to take some pressure off the system?

Oh wait. They don't. Because they don't care. But no one is allowed any abortions no matter what, lest we forget.

you can have an abortion, hop on the boat to the uk. nobody is stopping you from doing that.

wakka12

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Frank Stephens gave this speech recently about screening for down syndrome & abortion of babies with down syndrome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQJEoRhkapw

The speech is quite moving but a little ignorant too. I dont think hes recognising how hard it is for the parents of a down syndrome child, at all

end of the road

January wrote: »

Nope. That's not what we're talking about.

It already happens btw, we just export the problem. NIBYism at it's finest.

we correctly can't stop people from traveling, so if someone wants an abortion they can do it in the uk. the uk is easier in many ways to get to then parts of this country

Lux23

I have a brother with special needs, I love him to bits but I don't think I could raise a child like him so I don't blame people for making this choice. I would probably make the same choice myself.

January

end of the road wrote: »

we correctly can't stop people from traveling, so if someone wants an abortion they can do it in the uk. the uk is easier in many ways to get to then parts of this country

We can stop people from travelling and we do, we stop people who cannot afford to travel, we stop people who cannot travel (because they are refugee's or can't get the right visa to get into the UK).

If you really wanted people to not have abortions you'd be campaigning to have the right to travel revoked. But you don't care about people having abortions, you care about people not having abortions here. You're a hypocrite.

kylith

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree, that's exactly what it is talking about. innocent unborn children being killed just for being disabled. there is no justification for it and we must insure it does not happen in ireland.

Why?

Why should someone who knows they can't cope with a disabled child be forced to have one?

Jayop

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an abortion, hop on the boat to the uk. nobody is stopping you from doing that.

If you don't have a visa to enter England border patrol will stop you.
If you don't have a passport the airport security will stop you.
If you don't have money for a flight the airline will stop you.

I suppose the person could find out they're pregnant, apply for a passport, wait another 12 weeks, book a flight and then maybe have the abortion at 26+ weeks. For some reason that seems to be preferable for pro-life people than allowing woman to have a safe medical abortion at -12 weeks in Ireland.

Strange attitude.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

you can have an abortion, hop on the boat to the uk. nobody is stopping you from doing that.

I shouldn't have to leave the country. I should be able to get one in the comfort of familiar surroundings. I have nothing to be ashamed of and should be able to obtain the medical care I feel I need as a legal adult in my own country.

harr

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier because I think its very relevant.

A lot of people who are anti-abortion under any circumstances, have no interest in what happens to these babies when they're born.

Instead of judging these women/couples who make the heartbreaking decision to terminate, why aren't they helping the disadvantaged children in their community? Volunteering to look after disabled children so their parents can get some respite?
Offering donations to stressed, over worked parents who are financially broke and struggling making it to the end of the month? Campaigning to TDs for more social housing for all the families on social welfare who can't afford their own homes?
Foster a few children to take some pressure off the system?

Oh wait. They don't. Because they don't care. But no one is allowed any abortions no matter what, lest we forget.

Very well said...friends of ours who also have a child with DS have no support what so ever from family...the grandmother who thinks she is all high and mighty in social circles and a Staunch catholic and is even a eucharistic minister will not babysit her grandson because he is to hard to handle and messes up her house...yet the very mention of anything against the churches teaching she would jump down your neck..yet she mentions to anyone who listens to her about how her Beautiful grandson is a blessing from god :mad:

January

Oh and BTW abortions do happen in this country. Up to 5 a day happen in secret at home, using abortion pills procured from the internet. These women live in fear of someone telling the Garda they have done this and being prosecuted.

Jayop

January wrote: »

Oh and BTW abortions do happen in this country. Up to 5 a day happen in secret at home, using abortion pills procured from the internet. These women live in fear of someone telling the Garda they have done this and being prosecutedpersecuted.

FYP

January

Jayop wrote: »

FYP

Both.

Jayop

January wrote: »

Both.

No doubt!

SusieBlue

If you want an abortion, you should be able to have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, you shouldn't have to have one.
No one should be able to dictate what another adult does with their reproductive organs. They aren't the ones left holding the baby so its no ones business apart from the two people the decision actually affects.
That's what it all boils down to. To believe you have a say in how someone else goes about their life implies a level of superiority I can't even begin to understand.

Hooks Golf Handicap

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I am as far from Iona as you could get.

This thread has gone off track with all the abortion talk, there's another thread for that.
My thread was for the debate around DS & the likelihood of there being DS children in the future.
There's no reason to think we won't chose any differently than our European cousins.

end of the road

January wrote: »

we stop people who cannot afford to travel

no we don't. they are unable to afford to travel so therefore cannot travel. if i can't afford to go on a foreign holiday if i wanted to (not that i ever do anyway) does that mean i'm being stopped from traveling? no it simply means i can't afford to travel so i don't travel.

January wrote: »

we stop people who cannot travel (because they are refugee's or can't get the right visa to get into the UK).

that's down to the uk immigration policy. if you don't have the right visa you aren't getting in . why should the uk allow people in illegally just because they want to have an abortion?

Jayop wrote: »

If you don't have a visa to enter England border patrol will stop you.
If you don't have a passport the airport security will stop you.

that's because you are breaking the rules. if you don't have th correct visas or documentation the authorities do have the right to stop you from entry or leaving. that's not stopping you from traveling, it's simply stopping you from traveling against the relevant rules and regulations.

Jayop wrote: »

If you don't have money for a flight the airline will stop you.

yes because they are a service provider, and have no obligation to allow you to use their service for free. that still isn't stopping you from traveling, you just can't travel using a service provider.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I shouldn't have to leave the country. I should be able to get one in the comfort of familiar surroundings. I have nothing to be ashamed of and should be able to obtain the medical care I feel I need as a legal adult in my own country.

the uk is a hell of a lot easier to get to via public transport then much of the country. and i don't have to pay for your abortion.

suicide_circus

Some people in the west, all things being equal, don't want to raise a DS kid just as some people in the east, given the option don't want to raise a female kid.

artanevilla

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

Speak for yourself.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

the uk is a hell of a lot easier to get to via public transport then much of the country. and i don't have to pay for your abortion.

Strawman argument. You can't honestly be suggesting that in a country this small its more convenient to cross the atlantic than go to the nearest clinic/hospital?

As for your second point I'm not even going to address it because there has been no talk either way as to whether the government will be covering them. You are jumping the gun, I don't foresee abortions being free of charge across the board regardless.

Jayop

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I am as far from Iona as you could get.

This thread has gone off track with all the abortion talk, there's another thread for that.
My thread was for the debate around DS & the likelihood of there being DS children in the future.
There's no reason to think we won't chose any differently than our European cousins.

The figures from the OP (dubious figures at best) only show the number of people who have an abortion after taking that test. No-one is forcing them to take the test and the number who do isn't 100% so even if all those who take the test have an abortion there's still a percentage that don't take the test.

end of the road

January wrote: »

Oh and BTW abortions do happen in this country. Up to 5 a day happen in secret at home, using abortion pills procured from the internet. These women live in fear of someone telling the Garda they have done this and being prosecuted.

that's the choice they make for breaking the law. + they don't know what exactly is in those pills.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If you want an abortion, you should be able to have one. If you don't want to have an abortion, you shouldn't have to have one.
No one should be able to dictate what another adult does with their reproductive organs. They aren't the ones left holding the baby so its no ones business apart from the two people the decision actually affects.
That's what it all boils down to. To believe you have a say in how someone else goes about their life implies a level of superiority I can't even begin to understand.

you aren't being stopped from having an abortion.

circadian

Some people with DS are reasonably high functioning. I have a cousin who has a job in a small cafe and leads a fairly happy life. However, his parents, in their 70's still have to care for him. I'd dread to think what it would be like if his affliction was more pronounced, like my other cousin. He's effectively an 80kg toddler and his parents spent their life making ends meet and caring for him. Who's going to care for them and him when they are too old?

In my view it's unfair on both the parents and child if the option for abortion isn't there.

A home that isn't prepared, stable enough or suitable for caring for someone with a severe, life long disability is unfair for both parties involved.

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Jayop

end of the road wrote: »

no we don't. they are unable to afford to travel so therefore cannot travel. if i can't afford to go on a foreign holiday if i wanted to (not that i ever do anyway) does that mean i'm being stopped from traveling? no it simply means i can't afford to travel so i don't travel.



that's down to the uk immigration policy. if you don't have the right visa you aren't getting in . why should the uk allow people in illegally just because they want to have an abortion?



that's because you are breaking the rules. if you don't have th correct visas or documentation the authorities do have the right to stop you from entry or leaving. that's not stopping you from traveling, it's simply stopping you from traveling against the relevant rules and regulations.



yes because they are a service provider, and have no obligation to allow you to use their service for free. that still isn't stopping you from traveling, you just can't travel using a service provider.



the uk is a hell of a lot easier to get to via public transport then much of the country. and i don't have to pay for your abortion.

What are you talking about? So if people are unable to travel to a country for any of the reasons I said then they are still being allowed to travel?? What kind of convoluted crap is that?

If someone is in Ireland and doesn't have the right to travel to the UK, say a refugee and they can't go back to their own country then they are not being allowed to travel and cannot have an abortion. That's a fact. If someone can't afford the flight or doesn't have a passport then they cannot travel and cannot have an abortion.

No amount of twisted reasoning will change that.

kylith

end of the road wrote: »

no we don't. they are unable to afford to travel so therefore cannot travel. if i can't afford to go on a foreign holiday if i wanted to (not that i ever do anyway) does that mean i'm being stopped from traveling? no it simply means i can't afford to travel so i don't travel.

Which is exactly what January was saying: People who cannot afford to travel are forced to have children that they don't want. If they can't afford to travel for an abortion do you think they can afford to raise a child? ESPECIALLY one with a pronounced disability?

SusieBlue

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Couldn't agree more. Its frightening.

circadian

If someone can't afford to travel for an abortion then what hope do they have in being able to financially provide adequate care for a child?

January

end of the road wrote: »

that's the choice they make for breaking the law. + they don't know what exactly is in those pills.



you aren't being stopped from having an abortion.

The pills are safe. They are on the WHO list of essential medicines. They're the same pills used to treat rheumatoid arthritis among other illnesses.

Also, getting to the UK isn't easier than making the trip to your local maternity hospital, or GP office, which is where the majority of abortions will take place, using the same pills used at home by up to 5 women per day. 92% of abortions take place before the 12th week of pregnancy.

Again, you're just a huge hypocrite.

Gbear

Late term or third trimester abortions are extremely rare and of those that occur, virtually all of those are as a result of discovering serious debilitating diseases, fatal fetal abnormalities or a danger posed to the mother.

The notion that there'll be queues out the door of women looking to murder their child a week before it's due is ouright deceitful bull****.
People don't just elect to have abortions after taking the pregenancy that far. It's not something people do for the craic, as anyone with a shred of empathy would be able to understand.

If you believe a foetus is a child and an abortion is murder then there's not much you can argue with that. That's a position based on faith. It's not based on the sapience of the foetus, it's capacity to feel pain or anything that you can debate about. It's a magical idea and you can't use logic to defeat arguments of that nature.

As such, you can't expect pro-lifers to support any form of abortion for virtually any reason and it would be grossly hypocritical of them to make arbitrary allowances for the baby being a product or rape or the baby having non-fatal diseases (Down Syndrome is probably on the borderline given how much those who have Down Syndrome suffer without it being fatal in itself).

The only situation that you could expect pro-lifers to give ground on is if there's a fatal foetal abnormality or danger to the mother, because in that circumstance there is no benefit to anyone for the baby being born and prohibiting abortion in those circumstance are not justifyable by anyone's ethics or standards, regardless of faith or lack thereof.

If you think God is going to judge us harshly for terminating pregnancies where the baby has anencephaly then either you're lying about your faith in a loving and merciful god because those actions preclude that possibility, or God is a scumbag and isn't worth worshipping whether he's real or not.

If, on the other hand, you are in favour of allowing abortions then the reason why someone is having it performed shouldn't come into it.

And the idea that all down syndrome people will die out because we won't allow them to be born being some sort of tragedy is ludicrous.
Think of all the children who aren't born because parents can't take care of any others after having to face the burden of a heavily disabled child.

How are the phantom children who aren't born currently a lesser loss than the phantom down syndrome children who wouldn't be born if we implemented this test?

SusieBlue

January wrote: »

The pills are safe. They are on the WHO list of essential medicines. They're the same pills used to treat rheumatoid arthritis among other illnesses.

Also, getting to the UK isn't easier than making the trip to your local maternity hospital, or GP office, which is where the majority of abortions will take place, using the same pills used at home by up to 5 women per day. 92% of abortions take place before the 12th week of pregnancy.

Again, you're just a huge hypocrite.

Its the typical "not in my backyard" mentality.

The Legend Of Kira

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

end of the road

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

how so. you may not agree with them which is perfectly fine, but they are not disgusting, horrific, naive or inflammatory.

kylith wrote: »

Which is exactly what January was saying: People who cannot afford to travel are forced to have children that they don't want. If they can't afford to travel for an abortion do you think they can afford to raise a child?

yes as there is a system there to help those who are unable to afford to provide the full cost for taking care of their child.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. Its frightening.

in what way is it "frightening"

Jayop

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

A complete strawman, but no I don't support the death penalty. It's been proven to be counter productive in actually stopping serious crime.

circadian

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

That's a solid foundation for a straw man you're building there.

Mutant z

I suspect it comes down to what your view on abortion I'm pro choice so i would support a woman's decision whatever choice she makes.

The Legend Of Kira

Jayop wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

A complete strawman, but no I don't support the death penalty. It's been proven to be counter productive in actually stopping serious crime.

You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

January

end of the road wrote: »

how so. you may not agree with them which is perfectly fine, but they are not disgusting, horrific, naive or inflammatory.




yes as there is a system there to help those who are unable to afford to provide the full cost for taking care of their child.




in what way is it "frightening"

You're a hypocrite, and naive to boot. Have you calculated the cost of raising a child and compared it against what the state give you to support raising that child? Bet you haven't.

Ulysses Gaze

Hector Savage wrote: »

Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

As George Carlin said...

Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to nine months. After that, they don't want to know about you. They don't want to hear from you. No nothing. No neonatal care, no day care, no head start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you're preborn, you're fine; if you're preschool, you're ****ed.

CerebralCortex

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

There is no sentient being waiting to be put to death in the abortion case, no anxiety, no hopes, desires etc. I'm so taken aback at how breathtakingly fallacious such a comparison is I can't think straight. I'd get kicked if told you what I really think of you.

MrPudding

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

Oh wow. I really didn't see that coming. I swear. Really... I didn't. Bolt out of the blue. Man, you got us. I am pro-choice but anti-death penalty. At least I was... Until you... Amazing. Hats off. You really are a master debater.

MrP

Ulysses Gaze

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

Perhaps you would care to explain the false equivalence that you have posted?

kylith

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick question to people who support choice to abort a down syndrome unborn baby,  what are your thoughts on people being put on death row for the death penalty, do you support or disagree with such laws ? I ll explain why I asked this question in this context based on answers I receive .

Why not just explain now?

theclovenson

Hector Savage wrote: »

Great article, and brave woman too - it's so tough.
These pro lifers (anti women-ers) fail to see the difficult lives ahead for everyone involved - they also tend not to give a sh*t once the child is born.

I would love to share this article on my FB page, but a woman I know has a DS son in his 20s and I would not like to upset her. I know she does her best but you can see the fear of the future in her eyes. She would have aborted too.

I think DS is a primary reason we need abortion on demand in Ireland rather than being used as a weapon to prevent it. It's not eurgenics.

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CerebralCortex

theclovenson wrote: »

I would love to share this article on my FB page, but a woman I know has a DS son in his 20s and I would not like to upset her. I know she does her best but you can see the fear of the future in her eyes. She would have aborted too.

I think DS is a primary reason we need abortion on demand in Ireland rather than being used as a weapon to prevent it. It's not eurgenics.

Indeed just a recognition that suffering is suffering. Pro-lifers (probably Chrisitians) seem to be so masochistic and I'm not sure why?

Jayop

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

Yes

MrPudding wrote: »

Oh wow. I really didn't see that coming. I swear. Really... I didn't. Bolt out of the blue. Man, you got us. I am pro-choice but anti-death penalty. At least I was... Until you... Amazing. Hats off. You really are a master debater.

MrP

I was stunned really, and disappointed in myself to fall into such a carefully laid trap.