Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

The Legend Of Kira

MrPudding wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

You don,t support the death penalty, fair enough- but do you support choice to abort an unborn baby with down syndrome ?

Oh wow. I really didn't see that coming. I swear. Really... I didn't. Bolt out of the blue. Man, you got us. I am pro-choice but anti-death penalty. At least I was... Until you... Amazing. Hats off. You really are a master debater.

MrP

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

Jayop

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not to mention that absolute undeniable fact that even those who can travel will 100% be having that abortion later term than had they been able to do it at home.

Pro-life people support later term than necessary abortion.

ohnonotgmail

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

gee, is that where you were going with this? you really had us all fooled. :rolleyes:

pwurple

This non-invasive test is absolutely amazing. There is a ds man in my extended family, and it is just horrendous. I'd never inflict it on anyone. I wouldn't wish being DS on my worst enemy. If it were me, I'd have wanted it ended before it started.
In my experience, this man I know is severely affected. Non-verbal, incontinent, practically blind and has a set of tics that involve his arms jerking. He is in his 60's now. I've never in my lifetime seen him smile, his emotions ranged from sobbing to outright rage. As I child I was terrified of him. He was violent, used to try to strangle / beat children and animals, and as he got older, this got worse,  extended to adults. His poor parents couldn't cope with him, they were bruised to bits all the time, and they were elderly. He had to go to a home. It's expensive, paid for by a trust his parents set up before they died. He is visited by his siblings, and various others in the family. He doesn't know us from the wall, never had a notion that his parents were alive or dead. It's a miserable existence.

January

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

As a woman who has 4 children already if I were to get pregnant again the life of my already born children would take precedence over the potential life growing inside me. I simply cannot afford to have another child. Not just financially (which I can't btw, I'm seriously broke already) but emotionally and physically also. Pregnancy is tough. Raising kids is tough. I'm going to prioritise the ones I already have thanks.

Somedaythefire

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

Fetuses aren't babies.

kylith

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

Personally I'm against the death penalty because I think death is too good for some people.

January

pwurple wrote: »

This non-invasive test is absolutely amazing. There is a ds man in my extended family, and it is just horrendous. I'd never inflict it on anyone. I wouldn't wish being DS on my worst enemy. If it were me, I'd have wanted it ended before it started.
In my experience, this man I know is severely affected. Non-verbal, incontinent, practically blind and has a set of tics that involve his arms jerking. He is in his 60's now. I've never in my lifetime seen him smile, his emotions ranged from sobbing to outright rage. As I child I was terrified of him. He was violent, used to try to strangle / beat children and animals, and as he got older, this got worse,  extended to adults. His poor parents couldn't cope with him, they were bruised to bits all the time, and they were elderly. He had to go to a home. It's expensive, paid for by a trust his parents set up before they died. He is visited by his siblings, and various others in the family. He doesn't know us from the wall, never had a notion that his parents were alive or dead. It's a miserable existence.

Terminology is so important here. The man in your family has Down Syndrome. He is not a Down Syndrome man.

CerebralCortex

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

They're clearly not the same situation. It's a false equivalence. Do you understand the difference between a self aware prisoner and a developing fetus? Them both being genetically unique is not the salient point. The logic is clear:

Prisoner is sentient = true
Fetus is sentient = false

Prisoner suffers = true
Fetus suffers = false

Prisoner has a developed nervous system = true
Fetus " = false

Logic.

Ulysses Gaze

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Im baffled by this logic, someone on death row for serious crimes its wrong for them to face the death penalty, but an innocent unborn baby who,s completely defenseless & never harmed anyone its ok to end such life prematurely by abortion, Im truly baffled & don,t get such logic , reason I asked question in context was to see people.s opinion in comparison on the two .

I am against the Death Penalty because, as has been proven many times, there have been instances of innocent people being placed on death row due to human error, legalistic sharp practice (evidence not been admitted or "lost"), pressure on authorities to "get a culprit" so anyone will do or just downright incompetence by police and judiciary.

A fetus, to me, is not a fully sentient human being. And parents should have the option of weighing up the quality of life that the potential Downs Syndrome human will have not just after they are born but throughout their life and, crucially, after the parents are dead. Particularly in societies without great social safety nets.

But your explanation above is no actual explanation at all as to why you asked the question in the first place.

kylith

pwurple wrote: »

This non-invasive test is absolutely amazing. There is a ds man in my extended family, and it is just horrendous. I'd never inflict it on anyone. I wouldn't wish being DS on my worst enemy. If it were me, I'd have wanted it ended before it started.
In my experience, this man I know is severely affected. Non-verbal, incontinent, practically blind and has a set of tics that involve his arms jerking. He is in his 60's now. I've never in my lifetime seen him smile, his emotions ranged from sobbing to outright rage. As I child I was terrified of him. He was violent, used to try to strangle / beat children and animals, and as he got older, this got worse,  extended to adults. His poor parents couldn't cope with him, they were bruised to bits all the time, and they were elderly. He had to go to a home. It's expensive, paid for by a trust his parents set up before they died. He is visited by his siblings, and various others in the family. He doesn't know us from the wall, never had a notion that his parents were alive or dead. It's a miserable existence.

This is the thing some people don't get. They see the lovely lad with DS packing bags in Tesco and they wonder how anyone wouldn't want him. They don't know that for every girl with DS working on a till there's another in an institution, non-verbal, incontinent, unable to understand or communicate, possibly violent, heart problems, gastro-intestinal problems, and parents worried sick about what will happen to their child when they die.

I somehow missed this thread.. Was baffled by the title, see the death penalty being talked about on page 11. Nice job mods.

manonboard

CerebralCortex wrote: »

They're clearly not the same situation. It's a false equivalence. Do you understand the difference between a self aware prisoner and a developing fetus? Them both being genetically unique is not the salient point. The logic is clear:

Prisoner is sentient = true
Fetus is sentient = false

Prisoner suffers = true
Fetus suffers = false

Prisoner has a developed nervous system = true
Fetus " = false

Logic.

whilst I am pro choice currently and I support people wanting to terminate if they want.
I don't think your logic represents the truth of the matter.

I think its a good list to get started on, but its like that list that they use to define life. Its got all sorts of issues and exceptions.

Your logical Booleans are trying to make something into a yes/no, a black and white option. It doesn't allow that most things in reality are on a spectrum from black to white with a billion shades of grey between them.

Take for instance. The sentience. There is huge debate still on going about what that actually is, what animals do and don't have it, and really if its even possible or just a neat trick by our minds that help us survive. When you consider that every effect has a cause, and every cause has an effect leading to it. There is a huge case for it all being just a big knock on set of causality and you have no real autonomy at all. Something being aware of itself is so hard to measure, we certainly don't know if its real or not now. The entire of the bhuddist perspective for instance, and they'd have a decent grasp after 2500 years of studying the self/not self paradox, hints that there is an idea, a thought of self, and other thoughts that think those those are I. Since long term meditators and practioners can let go of such stuff, its quite likely there are huge gaps in that concept.

Suffering is also a terrible metric for it. It would require deciding what is suffering and what is not. The most universal definition would boil down to experiencing something you don't want to experience. Since pain can be enjoyable, and lots of sensations use pain without it being classed as suffering.
There are many people with medical problems who cannot physically feel pain. So that is not a good way to go about deciding. Psychological suffering? Maybe.. but then you get into questions such as well if they don't know we will kill them.. then they wont suffer so that immediately removes that from the equation.

Possession of a nervous system? why the possession of one that is fully formed is what matters? What about people who have problems with thiers? Should we count them as less? If someone has one, and its not currently operational in a conscious capacity? should we use it then as a metric?
Also, the babies/cells/foetuses DO have nervous systems, they just aren't complete yet. They have all sorts of responses constantly being sent around their bodies. It makes great use of this system.

As I said, I currently support pro choice. Mostly because I think more suffering and harm comes to society by restriction abortion than allowing it. However I think black and white concepts like those make hostile debating points as they are flawed and yet easily become roadblocks to discussion.

Doltanian

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

Jamiekelly

It's a little disconcerting how some posters oppose abortions on the point of life being sacred, while at the same time they have no problems with actual children drowning in the mediterranean or at least make excuses for why they should not be rescued. Looks like being a Muslim child is enough to disqualify your life from being valuable. NIMBY-ism at it's finest.

splinter65

Wombatman wrote: »

You have to be born and grow a bit to qualify as a child. Could you change the red top headline please.

Unborn babies with Downs Syndrome.
Ok now? It’s horrible when you’ve been offended by words.

January

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ThisRegard

end of the road wrote: »

nobody is stopping you from doing that.

Your public service union friends may have a say in that.

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

So, your girlfriend, if found out she was having a baby with FFA, should have to travel to England for a surgical termination and then come home, smuggling the corpse for burial(?), unable to get a follow up exam in the same facility that performed the procedure?

splinter65

Somedaythefire wrote: »

Fetuses aren't babies.

When does a fetus become a baby? Which day following conception is it a baby and no longer a fetus?

Jayop

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

Isn't it nice that you can afford a trip to England and the cost of the procedure at short notice if required.

F*ck anyone who doesn't have that luxury though, amirite?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

eviltwin

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

A non-invasive test for Down Syndrome is now being offered by public health care in some Northern European countries.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/down-syndrome-ireland-blasts-prenatal-testing-34969733.html

This improves on previous methods of testing as being non-intrusive & 99% accurate.

Now we all like to think of ourselves as loving beings but what are the facts so far with parents receiving the prognosis.

In Iceland 100% of parents opted to abort
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/babies-with-down-syndrome-deserve-love-not-eradication

In Denamrk that figure is 98%
http://www.lifenews.com/2017/03/28/denmark-wants-total-elimination-of-people-with-down-syndrome-aborts-98-of-babies/

In the Uk that figure is at 90% of those who have the test
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37500189

I'm interested if firstly this test would be accepted in Ireland & if it were then what would our respective termination figure be.
Us Irish have a long & proud history on how we accept & view people with down syndrome so could we be a special case & break the trend.

So what?

Doltanian

Jayop wrote: »

Isn't it nice that you can afford a trip to England and the cost of the procedure at short notice if required.

F*ck anyone who doesn't have that luxury though, amirite?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

If I couldn't afford a trip to England I sure as well wouldn't be impregnating my partner would I? There is a thing called personal responsibility and family planning and also contraception something which abortion is not.

Jayop

Doltanian wrote: »

If I couldn't afford a trip to England I sure as well wouldn't be impregnating my partner would I? There is a thing called personal responsibility and family planning and also contraception something which abortion is not.

Rape?

Young people of 15/16 not having much responsibility.

Lack of family planning or sex education.


Like I said, good for you, but f*ck anyone from a lower socio economic background.

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

If I couldn't afford a trip to England I sure as well wouldn't be impregnating my partner would I? There is a thing called personal responsibility and family planning and also contraception something which abortion is not.

There's also these things called 'no contraception being perfect' and 'rape', the perpetrators of which aren't generally worried about condoms.

SusieBlue

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

So abortions should be allowed, but only for the reasons you and your girlfriend state and only in those circumstances.
F*ck everyone else's circumstances, f*ck what everyone else has going on in their lives, the only reasons that are deemed important or relevant enough are conveniently the ones that suit you.

You have no idea what it's like to bring up a disabled child so to insist the baby shouldn't be put into care at all costs is the height of ignorance.
How dare you assume to know how and if a mother would cope in that situation and suggest what little support that is available from the government be avoided or taken away.

I can't believe you actually managed to work mental health issues into your post as well. As if there isn't enough of a stigma in this country, particularly with post natal depression.

Your post reeks of the olden days of Ireland - suck it up and get on with it and don't dare say you can't cope or ask for help. Just struggle on absolutely miserable.

Your post is a load of sh*t.

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

If I couldn't afford a trip to England I sure as well wouldn't be impregnating my partner would I? There is a thing called personal responsibility and family planning and also contraception something which abortion is not.

So, you won't impregnate your partner if you couldn't afford to travel for an abortion? I thought you were against them apart from FFA?

eviltwin

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

So you and your girlfriend would choose abortion in the case of an FFA but you think you should be forced to travel to the UK to have it

It's not as simple as just booking an abortion with the nearest clinic. At that advanced staged only a few places can actually provide services for you at a cost of thousands. That's if you can get an appointment at all. Then you run the gauntlet of the law when trying to bring the remains home.

Why should anyone have to go through that when the maternity services here could do it.

ThisRegard

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion .......... agreed we would have an abortion .........both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand

Where do you even start with this?

Akrasia

Downs syndrome is a congenital disorder. It doesn't make people born with this disorder bad people or less human, but all this nonsense about Downs Syndrome being a gift that makes them special is just making the best of a situation people find themselves in. All healthy parents wish for their children to grow up to live happy independent lives.

If there was a cure for Downs Syndrome and parents were offered this at birth, what kind parents would refuse that cure?

If you are a couple trying to start a family and you discover you are pregnant but the fetus has downs syndrome, by choosing to keep that pregnancy you are gambling that this baby will be born with any of a wide range of developmental problems. By choosing to abort the pregnancy and try to get pregnant again, there's a very good chance the next pregnancy will produce a healthy baby.

If you're against abortion in this situation, ask this question to yourself. If you had two unfertilized eggs, one of them healthy, and one with the chromosome problem that causes DS, which egg would you choose for your own family?

Doltanian

kylith wrote: »

So, you won't impregnate your partner if you couldn't afford to travel for an abortion? I thought you were against them apart from FFA?

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

Ulysses Gaze

ThisRegard wrote: »

Where do you even start with this?

You don't....

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

I'm still confused.

Are you waiting until after you're married to have sex, or have children? If you found out she was pregnant tomorrow, is that what 'the money to travel' is for: to travel for a termination? Are you aware that you don't have to be married to care for you children, or single to be a deadbeat parent?

CerebralCortex

manonboard wrote: »

whilst I am pro choice currently and I support people wanting to terminate if they want.
I don't think your logic represents the truth of the matter....

I was just attempting to make the point that a fetus and an adult are not to be considered the same in terms of experience. Fetus isn't thinking about which pension plan to go with etc.

I couldn't agree with you more that there's a lot of nuance and difficult philosophy around person-hood and subjective experience. Again I think it's reasonable to say that an adult and a fetus have a significantly different ontological status.

Blazer

It’s all very well saying it’s horrific how these countries are treating ds embryos but have you seen how Ireland treats it’s Down syndrome and austistic children and their parents. Pretty ****in awful I tell you.
I dread what happens to my child if he had to go into state care if something happened to me.
You only have to read the news to see a story every week about the state failing these children.

I pray for the day when we can do the same here and let people make the choice whether to raise a ds child or not. Same for Austism, someday i hope they have a genetic test for it too. We should stop asking parents of ds/austistic children if abortion should be legal but ask future parents if they’re prepared to raise a ds child or go for abortion.

Doltanian

kylith wrote: »

I'm still confused.

Are you waiting until after you're married to have sex, or have children? If you found out she was pregnant tomorrow, is that what 'the money to travel' is for?

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

kylith

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

And if you had an unplanned pregnancy?

Akrasia

Doltanian wrote: »

It's being responsible, you know Children cost money and a surprisingly large amount of it also. Both my partner and I will wait until after marriage so our future children will get the best start in life, we own our own home and have zero debts so a family is something we will be considering. The country has enough deadbeat dads and single mothers. Its called being responsible, being a father figure and caring for your partner and children.

Haha, so you're gonna wait until your mortgage is paid off in your 50s before considering having a baby.

How responsible of you?

CerebralCortex

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=define+utopia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=f54EWrDMFIGIarKIt7gJ

SusieBlue

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

Jesus Christ. You do realise that almost everyone in the whole wide world will agree that a pregnancy should be planned but sometimes life has a funny way of changing your plans and you end up unexpectedly pregnant?

And before you start on about being smart and using protection, the only guaranteed form of contraception is abstinence. So if you are sleeping with your girlfriend regardless of what method of contraception you are using, you too are at risk of one of those pesky unplanned pregnancies.

eviltwin

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

And what about the psychological impact on your partner of having to travel to the UK to have an abortion.

What about the impact of having to smuggle the remains home in secret or having ashes sent to you by a courier?

Why do you think so little of her that you think that kind of treatment is acceptable?

January

Doltanian wrote: »

What I am saying is money is not an issue because a pregnancy should be planned, if there was a medical need to abort this would not be an issue due to the planning aspect which ensures both partners are on a financially sound footing.

So what happens if your contraception fails?

SusieBlue

He has to be trolling. He already said he believes parents with children with Down syndrome shouldn't be allowed put them in care or respite and it should be avoided at all costs.
What the actual f*ck like.

Sofiztikated

Doltanian wrote: »

I am against abortion and a Christian as is my Girlfriend, we both actually discussed the matter one evening when we were listening to the whole Abortion debate and agreed we would have an abortion if the baby was deformed or unlikely to live etc. We both are against abortion in Ireland and there is access to Abortion in the UK if required. The status quo should remain here.

What I am against is the liberal marxists pushing for Abortion on demand and under no circumstances should a healthy baby ever be aborted, mental illness of the mother should not be a valid reason either. Its a very delicate situation and all pregnant women should be scanned so as to allow them to make informed decisions. There has been cases where a woman gave birth to a downs syndrome baby and totally disowned the child placing it into care.This type of situation should be avoided at all costs.

Why is it good enough to have it in the UK, but not here? Totally against abortion, except if we need to get one? You are a walking, talking hypocrite.

I've said it before, I've a condition that usually presents with other conditions, I'm "lucky" enough that it presented on it's own. I've had multiple corrective surgeries, as advances in medicine came. My mother admitted that if other conditions had been present, and abortion had been available, she would have considered it.

And that would have been 100% the correct choice. My being here isn't part of some divine plan, it's luck of the draw, and the universe wouldn't notice if I wasn't.

Jayop

January wrote: »

So what happens if your contraception fails?

The rhythm method is very successful.

Timberrrrrrrr

Jayop wrote: »

The rhythm method is very successful.

He probably only uses the tip, can't get preggers if you only use the tip

mahamageehad

This thread is about as messy as I would have expected! :rolleyes:

c_man wrote: »

Eugenics and abortion hand in hand? Colour me shocked.

This one always annoys me. Eugenics is the wrong term. Eugenics is about amplifying "desirable" traits passed on through generations, whereas terminating a pregnancy with Down Syndrome has no effect on the instance of DS in the next generation. So using this term either implies ignorance of the meaning of the term, or a thinly veiled attempt at emotive language. Although, in a thread godwinned from post 2 I'm not surprised.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

He probably only uses the tip, can't get preggers if you only use the tip

And early in the morning on a Sunday is fine too, sperm like an auld lie in so they're not up and about and active.

January wrote: »

Lifesitenews. Says it all really. The abortion rate in Iceland for pregnancies that have screened positive for DS is not 100%.

http://icelandmag.visir.is/article/fact-check-no-iceland-not-systematically-eradicating-down-syndrome

Thank you for pointing this out. It always irks me to see this false stat bandied around. Yes, there are people with DS in Iceland. Not many, but there aren't many people in Iceland in general. Not everyone avails of the tests, they're not mandatory - about 15-20% don't take the tests. Another 15-20% don't continue with the tests if they get an initial result of DS. Actually, Iceland does *more* for people with Down Syndrome than we do. In Iceland, if you are diagnosed as carrying a baby with DS, the hospitals will support you by helping you meet parents of DS children so you can see what it's like, they have a proper support network.

The other point rarely brought up in relation to DS is that they will grow up. Should a women with DS that doesn't really understand the concept of consent or sex or pregnancy be forced to continue a pregnancy should she get pregnant? Even if she wants to, is she capable of raising a child? These aren't meant to be harsh questions, but these are real scenarios that need to be considered.

Hooks Golf Handicap

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

Jayop

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

lol forced abortion.

We're getting the greatest hits here.

mahamageehad

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If Repeal and abortion on demand goes through.
Is there then an obligation on the parents to abort a DS positive foetus.

Surely it would be self indulgent of the parents to keep such a child who will always be a burden on the state and will never contribute to the states coffers.

I see where you're going with that, but obligated is just another way of saying forced. I doubt you'll find anyone who would agree with forced abortions or consider them a good thing, regardless of the circumstances.

Edit - I see Jayo got there before me, great minds etc etc.