We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

dinorebel

_Dara_ wrote: »

If the woman wants it to end in abortion then it’s ending well.

It was a joke:cool:

pitifulgod

Gonna ignore those who are trying this thread into an argument. The user wants to allow an open space where women can openly speak about their abortions, regret or not etc. To those who are taking the thread with this intent, I would like to say fair play for your openness, I know it isn't easy to discuss as a topic, particularly in this country.

I'm male but for the record, I would never judge my mother if she told me she had an abortion or even if she had considered aborting me. She didn't but I respect her right to make that decision.

So fair play to the OP and I hope people don't choose to allow it to descend into sniping too and fro.

_Dara_

Tenigate wrote: »

Seems like she (or he) is trying to create an echo chamber and is pushing a liberal agenda.

Sure, we all have biases.

maxsmum

What's a 'liberal agenda'?! Sounds a bit Orwellian.

Carry

Tenigate wrote: »

Seems like she (or he) is trying to create an echo chamber and is pushing a liberal agenda.

She. Definitely She. And a bad-ass She.

... echo chamber ... liberal agenda ....
Nope. I'm not impressed.

thee glitz

One More Toy wrote: »

The pro-life loons (read: Iona) think that every woman in ireland will open their legs on a friday night and not wear a condom. Ridiculous.

Ye, it's just some sh!t you made up. It doesn't matter anyway - allowable or not should be independent of incidence.

splinter65

One More Toy wrote: »

Hi Cora!

Damn. I wish I was a super cool as this.

One More Toy

splinter65 wrote: »

Damn. I wish I was a super cool as this.

Im home with the downies


Anyway Id much rather hear of how horrible it is to have to travel 100s of miles in secrecy rather than everyone's agenda

The_Valeyard

Carry wrote: »

Did you ask your mother why she didn't want a child? Did you ask her about her circumstances, and her feelings? Did you ask yourself why she needs to get drunk? Did you ask yourself what your being alive did to her life?

If you care about life so much, please try to care about your mother's life, too, and try to put yourself in her shoes.

This is an extremely f*cked up comment. He told a very personal and horrifying story and this is what you took from it?

Why doesnt he care about the woman who tried to nuke him before birth? Im sure he did care, which is why he went looking for her in the first place. You come across very heartless with that!

Ave Sodalis

The_Valeyard wrote:

Why doesnt he care about the woman who tried to nuke him before birth? Im sure he did care, which is why he went looking for her in the first place. You come across very heartless with that!

Nuke him before birth?! That's a new one...

Can we not have a thread where women and men can talk about and share their experiences with abortion without this kind of rubbish?

Tenigate

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Nuke him before birth?! That's a new one...

Can we not have a thread where women and men can talk about and share their experiences with abortion without this kind of rubbish?

Not really.. you're talking about ending a human life.
It's hard to give perpetrators safe spaces to pretend they're the victims when the clear victims aren't around to talk about their experiences.

Outlaw Pete

Tenigate wrote: »

Not really.. you're talking about ending a human life.

Careful, always specify a human being's life, otherwise you'll most likely get a pompous essay about how human biological matter (such as dead skin cells and snot) are / were also human life.

Hellrazer

[QUOTE=Ave Sodalis;105236452[/quote]

Can we not have a thread where women and[bold] men[/bold] can talk about and share their experiences with abortion without this kind of rubbish?[/QUOTE]

You see you actually can't have a thread like this on boards.
Regardless of how you see abortion no man has the right to tell any woman what they can or cannot do with their own body.And until that is instilled in the male population any abortion discussion can't take place.

Carry

One More Toy wrote: »

Anyway Id much rather hear of how horrible it is to have to travel 100s of miles in secrecy rather than everyone's agenda

You want to know the gory details? Fine.

First of all I didn’t have any support. I was a student, struggling to get through uni without much money, my parents were dead and there wasn’t any other family left. The man who impregnated me was horrified and couldn’t cope, he was shortly afterwards history.

I had to get the paper work together, quickly, to get the abortion before 12 weeks were over (that was in Germany, at least I didn’t need to travel far). Paperwork included confirmation and approval of a gynacologist and from a counsellor-group which was kind of a tribunal to judge if an abortion was justified.

Then I had to find a clinic. Now since abortion was legal most clinics couldn’t refuse an abortion when all paperwork was valid. But they could make it as hard and unsupportive as possible if they did disapprove morally. Which they did in my case.

At that time there were two forms of abortion: scraping the uterus out or sucking the cells out without harming the rest of the uterus.

Of course they did the scraping job which was very painful afterwards when the anaesthesia wore off. I didn’t get any painkillers. Before that they shaved my pubic hair off, very bluntly and very unnecessarily. It never grew properly back.

The scraping took weeks to heal, I was bleeding for ages. As a consequence my menstrual cycle was seriously fecked and never got back to normal, which made contraception very difficult. A coil was out of the question because of the scarring of the uterus. The pill was out of the question because shortly before the abortion my gynacologist detected the first onset of cervix cancer, another reason for the abortion, by the way, and another operation afterwards.

With all this I had to deal on my own. There were friends, but they were as young and inexperienced as I was and couldn’t really deal with it.

I can only imagine how women in Ireland feel who have to go to the UK secretly and more often than not completely alone.

I don’t have regrets, I’m not a very maternal person anyway, but believe me, no woman would go through this lightly.

Too much information for the male audience? Well, deal with it. That’s female reality.

Tenigate

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Careful, always specify a human being's life, otherwise you'll most likely get a pompous essay about how human biological matter (such as dead skin cells and snot) are / were also human life.

I'm using this definition of "life':

life
lʌɪf/
noun
the existence of an individual human being or animal.

Graham

Hellrazer wrote: »

You see you actually can't have a thread like this on boards.
Regardless of how you see abortion no man has the right to tell any woman what they can or cannot do with their own body.And until that is instilled in the male population any abortion discussion can't take place.

Carry wrote: »

Too much information for the male audience? Well, deal with it. That’s female reality.

How on earth did the two of you manage to turn the thread into a male v female issue?

The crusaders that attempt to turn any discussion on abortion into a no-choice pompom rally are far from entirely male.

The_Valeyard

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Nuke him before birth?! That's a new one...

Can we not have a thread where women and men can talk about and share their experiences with abortion without this kind of rubbish?

In your opinion.

My opinion, its not rubbish.

You do not get to dictate threads.

Outlaw Pete

Tenigate wrote: »

I'm using this definition of "life':

life
lʌɪf/
noun
the existence of an individual human being or animal.

I know that, they know that...... but that still wouldn't stop some users from posting the kind of replies which I'm referring to, unfortunately.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I've never had one. My sister did ten years ago (she's very very open about it, I know other women who've had one but are not).

She'd just turned 16, the father was 15. Both of them, and my mother, flew to Amsterdam for the procedure.

She hadn't known she was pregnant because she was so young that her periods were still very irregular. I'd just started college and moved away when she realised, she phoned me in an absolute panic, I had to talk her down from ordering pills online. I travelled back home ASAP to be there when she told our parents. She was terrified and very hormonal, she was talking about things like our father would beat her or kill her boyfriend, she'd be kicked out etc. If you knew my parents you'd know how irrational those fears were, I was extremely concerned for her mental health and her safety during this time.

Anyways, broke the news to the parents. Not a good time. She knew what she wanted to do and they supported her.

She would have just about been within the limits for a medical abortion at that point. Logistical and financial complications necessitated by the stupid 8th amendment meant that it was another two and a bit weeks before she could have the abortion. It was always going to be the situation that that pregnancy ended in an abortion, but because she lived in Ireland it ended up being a far more invasive and painful procedure, and for those of you more concerned about the foetus than the young girl carrying it, a far more grisly end for a more advanced foetus. Round of applause for yourselves on that count.

I'll never forget talking with her on the phone. I couldn't be there with her and my mother. My mother was sad but relieved, my sister had been holding it together for her I think and then just fell apart when she heard my voice. In some fcuking hotel room in Amsterdam.

Like I said she talks about it a lot, doesn't regret it. It was a horrible, horrible time.

We're very close and always have been. We have another sibling as well, so statistically our mother is likely to have had at least one miscarriage. My life is not any emptier for the lack of that sibling. It could have been any of the three of us. "Oh what about the unborn babies and their lives and opinions and feelings" is a meaningless hypothetical line in this argument.

Abortions are never fun. Making them more difficult and traumatic and expensive like we do in this country is fcuked.

Hannibal_Smith

Carry, were you in Germany already? Are you saying in a country where abortion is legal they treat the patient with disdain? Didn't you have a choice in which procedure they carried out? That's certainly not the pro choice option I'll be voting to implement!

Why would you think men would be too weak to read your post?

Gizmo55

Went to England with my girlfriend in ‘93. We were both 22. In hindsight it was definitely the right decision. She told me she found it hard for a few years afterwards, but has since had a child and all is good.

January

I've had one. I've spoken about it here before.

It was last year, I already have 4 children and my husband had just lost his job and we were broke. We used contraception but it failed (nuva ring). We spoke about it and we decided that we couldn't afford to raise another child, even if he was in full time employment it wouldn't have been an option.

My husband, my parents, my siblings and my mother in law knew about it.

I don't regret it, not for one second. We made the right decision for our family. I had the Implanon in around two weeks after the abortion, the doctor wouldn't tie my tubes unless I lost 3 stone as I'm overweight (which I am trying to lose).

Carry

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Carry, were you in Germany already? Are you saying in a country where abortion is legal they treat the patient with disdain? Didn't you have a choice in which procedure they carried out? That's certainly not the pro choice option I'll be voting to implement!

Why would you think men would be too weak to read your post?

I am German and still lived in Germany at this time, only moved to Ireland later on (20 years ago).

Being legal doesn't unfortunately mean that it is generally accepted. It might be different today, but at this time abortion was still frowned upon, to put it mildly. Medical professionals who didn't agree with the law showed their contempt for women like me through cruelty.
I'm afraid that might well happen in Ireland, too. It takes time until society adjusts.

No, I didn't have a choice in the procedure. Nobody told me that there are different ways to do it. I only found out later.
That's why information is so very important.

Why I would think men might be too weak? It's my experience in real life. The men I knew never wanted to hear about the gory intimate stuff women have to deal with.
I probably mentioned it here because that was in my mind and I used it as a sort of defence before I was attacked. I apoligize to all the men who are not horrified about it.

The_Valeyard

"Hellrazer wrote: »

You see you actually can't have a thread like this on boards.
Regardless of how you see abortion no man has the right to tell any woman what they can or cannot do with their own body.And until that is instilled in the male population any abortion discussion can't take place.

Not sure this is sarcasm or not.

One More Toy

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This is an extremely f*cked up comment. He told a very personal and horrifying story and this is what you took from it?

Why doesnt he care about the woman who tried to nuke him before birth? Im sure he did care, which is why he went looking for her in the first place. You come across very heartless with that!

Simple fact I've had to come to terms with in life os that some people are complete cnuts

Ave Sodalis

Hellrazer wrote: »

You see you actually can't have a thread like this on boards.
Regardless of how you see abortion no man has the right to tell any woman what they can or cannot do with their own body.And until that is instilled in the male population any abortion discussion can't take place.

While this is fair, I think in the context of this thread (which certain pro-lifers are struggling to understand) male posters should be welcome to discuss their experiences with abortion also, considering this isn't supposed to be a discussion of for or against.

_Dara_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

In your opinion.

My opinion, its not rubbish.

You do not get to dictate threads.

The OP should get a say though, don’t you think? You don’t have to comply but would you not give it a shot seeing as you have put your point across plenty on the subject before? This thread could be really interesting and enlightening. How arrogant do you have to be to think your opinion is worth screwing up an interesting thread for? Abortion has been theoretically discussed ad nauseum on this site. Why not let posts come in and read and consider them instead of kneejerking?

Oh and people might well compose posts that express regret at having an abortion.

Tenigate

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Not sure this is sarcasm or not.

It's not. Some people really are like this.

The problem isn't that abortion is illegal. Problems only occur when you make it legal, because it legitimates a pretty indefensible act. It gets funded by taxpayers who don't want it, healthcare professionals are forced to perform it or face ruin, and fathers' babies are killed in the womb while they're told it's none of their businesss. The status quo is fine. Let women like op paint themselves as virtuous victims rather than face reality and the outcomes of their own disastrous life decisions. I've no problem with that. Not going to keep my mouth shut either way.

eviltwin

Tenigate wrote: »

It's not. Some people really are like this.

The problem isn't that abortion is illegal. Problems only occur when you make it legal, because it legitimates a pretty indefensible act. It gets funded by taxpayers who don't want it, healthcare professionals are forced to perform it or face ruin, and fathers' babies are killed in the womb while they're told it's none of their businesss. The status quo is fine. Let women like op paint themselves as virtuous victims rather than face reality and the outcomes of their own disastrous life decisions. I've no problem with that. Not going to keep my mouth shut either way.

That's your opinion. A sizeable number don't have any issues with it.

Regardless could you not debate the issue in one of the other threads on the subject, it would be nice to allow people to share their stories without ruining the thread.

The_Valeyard

_Dara_ wrote: »

The OP should get a say though, don’t you think? You don’t have to comply but would you not give it a shot seeing as you have put your point across plenty on the subject before? This thread could be really interesting and enlightening. How arrogant do you have to be to think your opinion is worth screwing up an interesting thread for? Abortion has been theoretically discussed ad nauseum on this site. Why not let posts come in and read and consider them instead of kneejerking?

Then contact a moderator if you feel put out by other users valued comments. Or join this thread in one of the many other active AH abortion threads.

Yes, the OP gets a say, so do all other posters.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Tenigate wrote: »

It's not. Some people really are like this.

The problem isn't that abortion is illegal. Problems only occur when you make it legal, because it legitimates a pretty indefensible act. It gets funded by taxpayers who don't want it, healthcare professionals are forced to perform it or face ruin, and fathers' babies are killed in the womb while they're told it's none of their businesss. The status quo is fine. Let women like op paint themselves as virtuous victims rather than face reality and the outcomes of their own disastrous life decisions. I've no problem with that. Not going to keep my mouth shut either way.

The status quo where dead women are used as incubators, women bleed out on planes home, unsupervised at home abortions take place, teenaged rape victims are restrained until their pregnancy can be terminated by a c-section resulting in a child that faces into a lifetime of serious health problems, the maternity care for women with wanted pregnancies is negatively impacted, and where THOUSANDS of Irish women have abortions anyway, every single year?

Oooh what a lovely status quo, what a wonderful sensible opinion to have.

Could you not take that bile to one of the forty other abortion threads on the go atm?

eviltwin

This thread shows exactly why so many women and men are afraid to go public. The amount of abuse you open yourself up to is horrific.

_Dara_

Tenigate wrote: »

Not really.. you're talking about ending a human life.
It's hard to give perpetrators safe spaces to pretend they're the victims when the clear victims aren't around to talk about their experiences.

You’d have to commit a crime to be a perpetrator. Anyone who doesn’t support an abortion travel ban being in place in Ireland doesn’t consider this a crime.

_Dara_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Then contact a moderator if you feel put out by other users valued comments. Or join this thread in one of the many other active AH abortion threads.

Yes, the OP gets a say, so do all other posters.

I have no personal experience of abortion. I’m joining the thread by reading it. Believe it or not, not every thought that pops into one’s head needs to be expressed. Shocking, I know.

To quote Jessica Lovejoy: “Do you ever think anything you don’t say?”.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The trauma of the actual event gets lost in the argument.
Like the general message of the OP. It's something that a woman will have to live with on her conscience for the rest of her life.


That's a cross to bear that no man will ever fully understand.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Fisher Numerous Sandstone wrote: »

I've never had one. My sister did ten years ago (she's very very open about it, I know other women who've had one but are not).

She'd just turned 16, the father was 15. Both of them, and my mother, flew to Amsterdam for the procedure.

She hadn't known she was pregnant because she was so young that her periods were still very irregular. I'd just started college and moved away when she realised, she phoned me in an absolute panic, I had to talk her down from ordering pills online. I travelled back home ASAP to be there when she told our parents. She was terrified and very hormonal, she was talking about things like our father would beat her or kill her boyfriend, she'd be kicked out etc. If you knew my parents you'd know how irrational those fears were, I was extremely concerned for her mental health and her safety during this time.

Anyways, broke the news to the parents. Not a good time. She knew what she wanted to do and they supported her.

She would have just about been within the limits for a medical abortion at that point. Logistical and financial complications necessitated by the stupid 8th amendment meant that it was another two and a bit weeks before she could have the abortion. It was always going to be the situation that that pregnancy ended in an abortion, but because she lived in Ireland it ended up being a far more invasive and painful procedure, and for those of you more concerned about the foetus than the young girl carrying it, a far more grisly end for a more advanced foetus. Round of applause for yourselves on that count.

I'll never forget talking with her on the phone. I couldn't be there with her and my mother. My mother was sad but relieved, my sister had been holding it together for her I think and then just fell apart when she heard my voice. In some fcuking hotel room in Amsterdam.

Like I said she talks about it a lot, doesn't regret it. It was a horrible, horrible time.

We're very close and always have been. We have another sibling as well, so statistically our mother is likely to have had at least one miscarriage. My life is not any emptier for the lack of that sibling. It could have been any of the three of us. "Oh what about the unborn babies and their lives and opinions and feelings" is a meaningless hypothetical line in this argument.

Abortions are never fun. Making them more difficult and traumatic and expensive like we do in this country is fcuked.

Very good insight E-B. Can I ask why Amsterdam and not a closer, more convenient place (ie, Liverpool)?

dudara

Thankfully, I've never found myself in an unplanned situation. Statistically I must know someone who has found themselves in that position. But I've never heard anyone speak about it.

I'd really like to hear more stories. I'd be confident that if more poeople opened up, we'd hear a wide range of reasons for making that decision. I think it would show how much this topic impacts our society. And maybe then we'd be motivated to deal with it.

@Carry - I read your account with interest. It's astounding to think that doctors caused you harm that lasted for years, and potentially prevented you from having future wanted pregnancies.

The_Valeyard

_Dara_ wrote: »

I have no personal experience of abortion. I’m joining the thread by reading it. Believe it or not, not every thought that pops into one’s head needs to be expressed. Shocking, I know.

To quote Jessica Lovejoy: “Do you ever think anything you don’t say?”.

Nice personal dig there.

Im free to comment in a civil manner and I have done and am doing so.

The number of posting trying to shut down discourse and discussion is frightening. Either agree with this platform or shut up by certain posters.

Tenigate

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's a cross to bear that no man will ever fully understand.

Cross to bear.. that's carrying a baby. Not having a quasi medical procedure, pick up a few new threads, and complaining that people didn't support your brave decision.

pitifulgod

_Dara_ wrote: »

I have no personal experience of abortion. I’m joining the thread by reading it. Believe it or not, not every thought that pops into one’s head needs to be expressed. Shocking, I know.

To quote Jessica Lovejoy: “Do you ever think anything you don’t say?”.

Think people are as well off not engaging with the users who wish to make this about judgement... They're just missing the point of the thread.

beertons

I know a few who have gone to England. Fell pregnant to a guy they had no long term plans with. Said to themselves that they don't want contact with this person for the rest of their lives, and hopped on a plane. All were accompanied with friends over there, stayed with them for a few days too. They weren't the first, and certainly won't be the last. Even if it was allowed here, word would get back. Ireland is just too small a place.

_Dara_

pitifulgod wrote: »

Think people are as well off not engaging with the users who wish to make this about judgement... They're just missing the point of the thread.

Yep, good point.

_Dara_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The number of posting trying to shut down discourse and discussion is frightening. Either agree with this platform or shut up by certain posters.

Abortion hasn't been shut down as a topic on boards. It has been discussed from every angle. And some of those discussions are very recent and some are ongoing. I struggle to think of a more thrashed out topic on boards.

Don't be playing the victim just because you missed the point of the thread.

I'd also like to point out that I am interested in hearing both positive and negative experiences and from both genders.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mod Note: Folks, this is an emotive subject and will continue to be far, far into the future here.

I would request that ALL posters, from BOTH sides of the argument remain respectful when posting. You remain responsible for what you post here and 'a sudden rush of anger' as a defense isn't going to be tolerated.

If you have views that differ hugely from another poster or group of posters, the onus remains on you to respond with respect to their posts.

If you wish to have a responsible conversation on this, you too will have to remain respectful. There are currently three threads ongoing on this subject so there are plenty of other places for you to post on this.

Thanks in advance,

Buford.

The_Valeyard

_Dara_ wrote: »

Abortion hasn't been shut down as a topic on boards. It has been discussed from every angle. And some of those discussions are very recent and some are ongoing. I struggle to think of a more thrashed out topic on boards.

Don't be playing the victim just because you missed the point of the thread.

I mean a shout you down topic as if certain poster mention a pro life view they are hounded by other posters, quite viciously at times.

No one is playing the victim here.

_Dara_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I mean a shout you down topic as if certain poster mention a pro life view they are hounded by other posters, quite viciously at times.

Will ya shtop. Already on this thread, someone who had an abortion has been denigrated for her "terrible life choices".

The_Valeyard

_Dara_ wrote: »

Will ya shtop. Already on this thread, someone who had an abortion has been denigrated for her "terrible life choices".

Not by me.

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I mean a shout you down topic as if certain poster mention a pro life view they are hounded by other posters, quite viciously at times.

No one is playing the victim here.

Is it not possible to have one thread that is debate free? One thread where people can post without having to listen to the usual guff about the terrible thing they did? You are not being silenced but is it really necessary to bring it into this one thread?

_Dara_

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Not by me.

The discussion had moved on to general viewpoints. I think it was pretty clear that I wasn't talking about you there?

Tenigate

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it not possible to have one thread that is debate free? One thread where people can post without having to listen to the usual guff about the terrible thing they did? You are not being silenced but is it really necessary to bring it into this one thread?

That's what blogs are for.