We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

The_Valeyard

eviltwin wrote: »

Is it not possible to have one thread that is debate free? One thread where people can post without having to listen to the usual guff about the terrible thing they did? You are not being silenced but is it really necessary to bring it into this one thread?

In a public forum? Yes it is. This whole thread reads like a Pro Choice campaign slot. Im very dubious over the nature of this thread.

bodice ripper

I have a close family member who had an abortion. She doesn't regret it. It doesn't seem to have caused her any trauma at all. Our family doesn't mourn the loss of a purely hypothetical relative.

The_Valeyard

_Dara_ wrote: »

The discussion had moved on to general viewpoints. I think it was pretty clear that I wasn't talking about you there?

Pretty clear, you clearly stated in a reply to me "Dont be playing the victim"

eviltwin

The_Valeyard wrote: »

In a public forum? Yes it is. This whole thread reads like a Pro Choice campaign slot. Im very dubious over the nature of this thread.

So the other threads aren't enough for you? If this thread is going to become yet another debate what is even the point.

Ken.

Mod- The_valeyard and _dara_. Do not post in this thread again. Reason-bickering is going to lead to more severe actions.

Tigger

Hellrazer wrote: »

Can we not have a thread where women and[bold] men[/bold] can talk about and share their experiences with abortion without this kind of rubbish?

You see you actually can't have a thread like this on boards.
Regardless of how you see abortion no man has the right to tell any woman what they can or cannot do with their own body.And until that is instilled in the male population any abortion discussion can't take place.

take that to an extreem
is it still only the womans body and her decision what happens to it at 36 weeks ?
what if she finds out her partner has cheated on her and she no longer wants the baby should she be allowed terminate it?

Tenigate

_Dara_ wrote: »

Will ya shtop. Already on this thread, someone who had an abortion has been denigrated for her "terrible life choices".

Abortion IS a terrible choice. (And a terrible decision)

Judgement is wrong. But there's a difference between judging someone and stating that you don't agree with their decision, or stating that you don't agree with them normalising their choices under the guise of sharing experiences.

ceadaoin.

Tigger wrote: »

take that to an extreem
is it still only the womans body and her decision what happens to it at 36 weeks ?
what if she finds out her partner has cheated on her and she no longer wants the baby should she be allowed terminate it?

Do you know how rare late term abortions are? They account for a tiny minority of all terminations and are usually for medical reasons such as severe foetal abnormalities. The idea that women would go through the trauma of labour and birth of a deceased baby just because they "no longer want" the child is preposterous. You only need to look at the amount of single mothers in any country, even where abortion is legal, to see that this doesn't happen

Tenigate

Tigger wrote: »

what if she finds out her partner has cheated on her and she no longer wants the baby should she be allowed terminate it?

Wut?

Would you use the same argument for a newborn?

A baby isn't an engagement ring or a bargaining tool.

Tigger

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Do you know how rare late term abortions are? They account for a tiny minority of all terminations and are usually for medical reasons such as severe foetal abnormalities. The idea that women would go through the trauma of labour and birth of a deceased baby just because they don't want the child anymore is preposterous

either answer the question or dont
the poster i was replying states that a man should never have input onnwhat a woman does with her body

i am on record as being abortionnon demand in the first trimester
and for ffa or risk of the mothers life and that want assurances that outside of that if immto vote to repeal the eigth ammendment tonour constitution

so i ast the extreem question

Tigger

Tenigate wrote: »

Wut?

Would you use the same argument for a newborn?

A baby isn't an engagement ring or a bargaining tool.

i know
obviously you feel that the woman in questionnshould be made to carry the child to term

January

Tenigate wrote: »

Abortion IS a terrible choice. (And a terrible decision)

Judgement is wrong. But there's a difference between judging someone and stating that you don't agree with their decision, or stating that you don't agree with them normalising their choices under the guise of sharing experiences.

Abortion is a terrible choice and decision in your opinion .

It was the best decision for us. Carrying another pregnancy to term was not a choice for us either. We couldn't afford it.

I don't see myself as a victim of anything.

ceadaoin.

Tigger wrote: »

either answer the question or dont
the poster i was replying states that a man should never have input onnwhat a woman does with her body

i am on record as being abortionnon demand in the first trimester
and for ffa or risk of the mothers life and that want assurances that outside of that if immto vote to repeal the eigth ammendment tonour constitution

so i ast the extreem question

I doubt that situation would ever arise because it's highly unlikely that a termination for non medical reasons would be allowed that late in gestation. As well as the fact that no one would do that anyway so your question is ridiculous

January

Tigger wrote: »

either answer the question or dont
the poster i was replying states that a man should never have input onnwhat a woman does with her body

i am on record as being abortionnon demand in the first trimester
and for ffa or risk of the mothers life and that want assurances that outside of that if immto vote to repeal the eigth ammendment tonour constitution

so i ast the extreem question

Termination of pregnancy would occur not termination of foetus.

One More Toy

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Mod Note: Folks, this is an emotive subject and will continue to be far, far into the future here.

I would request that ALL posters, from BOTH sides of the argument remain respectful when posting. You remain responsible for what you post here and 'a sudden rush of anger' as a defense isn't going to be tolerated.

If you have views that differ hugely from another poster or group of posters, the onus remains on you to respond with respect to their posts.

If you wish to have a responsible conversation on this, you too will have to remain respectful. There are currently three threads ongoing on this subject so there are plenty of other places for you to post on this.

Thanks in advance,

Buford.

Never!!


(please don't ban me I've had a few whiskeys and I'm emotional)

Tigger

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I doubt that situation would ever arise because it's highly unlikely that a termination for non medical reasons would be allowed that late in gestation. As well as the fact that no one would do that anyway so your question is ridiculous

its not its leading and logical
so at what number of weeks should it no longer be up to the mother

Tigger

January wrote: »

Termination of pregnancy would occur not termination of foetus.

a c section?

January

Tigger wrote: »

a c section?

Cesarean or induction of vaginal birth can both be used yes.

Tigger

January wrote: »

Cesarean or induction of vaginal birth can both be used yes.

so who gets the baby?

January

Tigger wrote: »

so who gets the baby?

That depends, if the mother and father dont want to or are unable to look after them then they get put in care or adopted.

ceadaoin.

Tigger wrote: »

its not its leading and logical
so at what number of weeks should it no longer be up to the mother

Well in the UK it is allowed up to 24 weeks. less than 2% of all abortions occur after 20 weeks and are almost always for medical reasons. That cut off point seems to work ok. I think it's safe to say that there wouldnt be an epidemic of women terminating late stage pregnancies on a whim even without the limit

Tenigate

Tigger wrote: »

so who gets the baby?

Don't be silly. The surgeon injects the baby in the womb with poison so that the baby is delivered stillborn. This stops any awkward crying or squirming and makes the procedure seem less like.. well, it makes it cleaner.

Alternatively, the surgeon may snip the baby at the base of the neck prior to delivery. If the baby doesn't see the light of day, it's still a foetus. Once again, it's not.. you know.. it's just a simple, clinical women's health procedure.

Tigger

January wrote: »

That depends, if the mother and father dont want to or are unable to look after them then they get put in care or adopted.

well if the parents arent able to care for the child its fostered in my experiance
nonmy question is if the mother demands a termination of the pregnancy whongets the baby
can she change her mind
what week can this be done from

i just dont get why we can have early abortions with the pill and medical
supervision and then have a point of no return ( except in cases of ffa or risk to the mother ) until the pregnency can be ended early as you describe .

Carry

eviltwin wrote: »

This thread shows exactly why so many women and men are afraid to go public. The amount of abuse you open yourself up to is horrific.

Yes, but if we keep our mouth shut only because abusers abuse, nothing will ever change.

This is real life we are talking about, not some theories if or if not abortion can be condoned. That's not the point in this thread.

It should be possible to discuss and exchange experiences without hearing the same old arguments as in other threads where it is about the morals, not the experiences.

It's sad that ever the same people try to derail a discussion and can't even be stopped by Mods.

There are some brave women (and men) here to talk openly about their experiences or at least are interested in what others have to tell. That shouldn't be punished.

Tigger

Tenigate wrote: »

Don't be silly. The surgeon injects the baby in the womb with poison so that the baby is delivered stillborn. This stops any awkward crying or squirming and makes the procedure seem less like.. well, it makes it cleaner.

Alternatively, the surgeon may snip the baby at the base of the neck prior to delivery. If the baby doesn't see the light of day, it's still a foetus. Once again, it's not.. you know.. it's just a simple, clinical women's health procedure.

intgibk thats an abortion
how do you feel about tgat at 12 weeks or less?
10 weeks
4? whats your cut off

Tigger

Carry wrote: »

Yes, but if we keep our mouth shut only because abusers abuse, nothing will ever change.

This is real life we are talking about, not some theories if or if not abortion can be condoned. That's not the point in this thread.

It should be possible to discuss and exchange experiences without hearing the same old arguments as in other threads where it is about the morals, not the experiences.

It's sad that ever the same people try to derail a discussion and can't even be stopped by Mods.

There are some brave women (and men) here to talk openly about their experiences or at least are interested in what others have to tell. That shouldn't be punished.

thisbisnt an echo chamber
and i tgink tgatvtge women coming forward are brave for having the courage of their convictions

January

Tenigate wrote: »

Don't be silly. The surgeon injects the baby in the womb with poison so that the baby is delivered stillborn. This stops any awkward crying or squirming and makes the procedure seem less like.. well, it makes it cleaner.

Alternatively, the surgeon may snip the baby at the base of the neck prior to delivery. If the baby doesn't see the light of day, it's still a foetus. Once again, it's not.. you know.. it's just a simple, clinical women's health procedure.

You're so uneducated on this it's not even funny.

We're talking about 'late term abortions'. In the case of ffa yes the baby can be given an injection to stop their heart beating before they're born. In casea where there's immediate risk to the mothers life then if possible the pregnancy results in a live birth past the point of viability.

January

Tigger wrote: »

well if the parents arent able to care for the child its fostered in my experiance
nonmy question is if the mother demands a termination of the pregnancy whongets the baby
can she change her mind
what week can this be done from

i just dont get why we can have early abortions with the pill and medical
supervision and then have a point of no return ( except in cases of ffa or risk to the mother ) until the pregnency can be ended early as you describe .

It would depend on why the mother asked for the pregnancy to be terminated whether she got the baby back or not and I'm guessing it would be decided by a panel of social workers and a judge.

With regard to time limits once the baby is viable then a request for pregnancy termination should be accommodated. I don't believe a woman should be forced to remain pregnant against her will. Considering 0.2% of abortions are carried out after 20 weeks and most are for ffa and threat to mothers life then it's a very small amount we are talking about here.

Tigger

January wrote: »

It would depend on why the mother asked for the pregnancy to be terminated whether she got the baby back or not and I'm guessing it would be decided by a panel of social workers and a judge.

With regard to time limits once the baby is viable then a request for pregnancy termination should be accommodated. I don't believe a woman should be forced to remain pregnant against her will. Considering 0.2% of abortions are carried out after 20 weeks and most are for ffa and threat to mothers life then it's a very small amount we are talking about here.

nothing wrong with discussing checks and balances

personally i think 20 weeks is very late
i dont believe in a soul or anything like that but id be happier with 12 or 16 weeks at a pinch

cnocbui

Fighting Tao wrote: »

This will end well.

What a trite and obvious post.

In the same league as: 'first!'.

Ken.

Mod-tenigate do not post in this thread again. Reason- trolling at this stage.

January

Tigger wrote: »

nothing wrong with discussing checks and balances

personally i think 20 weeks is very late
i dont believe in a soul or anything like that but id be happier with 12 or 16 weeks at a pinch

Personally I believe in as early as possible and as late as necessary and that it should be a decision made between a woman and her doctor(s) and nobody else.

Hitman3000

Tenigate wrote:

Abortion IS a terrible choice. (And a terrible decision)

It's not though. Life is not black and white.

Tigger

January wrote: »

Personally I believe in as early as possible and as late as necessary and that it should be a decision made between a woman and her doctor(s) and nobody else.

sorry no at some point there is a mans child involved and that gives him rights
i do believe we are too far the other way and i invoted for the right to travel backnin the day but thats what i feel

Adviceme

I've had abortion. Yes. I had my reasons and don't really care what people have to say about it anyway. Autonomy over our own bodies...

Hitman3000

Tigger wrote:

sorry no at some point there is a mans child involved and that gives him rights i do believe we are too far the other way and i invoted for the right to travel backnin the day but thats what i feel

His 'rights' do not supersede her body integrity . I say this as a man who had to stand by and watch as my partner decided whether or not to have an abortion.

Tigger

Hitman3000 wrote: »

His 'rights' do not supersede her body integrity . I say this as a man who had to stand by and watch as my partner decided whether or not to have an abortion.

not at after 16 weeks i'd guess

Hitman3000

Tigger wrote:

not at after 16 weeks i'd guess

What?

Tigger

Hitman3000 wrote: »

What?

what what

RabbleRouser2k

I'm male, and I'll never know the difficult physical decision to have a termination. But I am pro-choice. And being pro-choice doesn't mean you are comfortable with discussing terminating a pregnancy, it just means you are pro allowing someone the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
The difficulty one can experience is knowing 'is it the right decision for me/ us'? And that is something nobody can predict-I've made choices in my life that I still don't know were the right ones.
I will commend an earlier post where the young man went over with his then girlfriend in order to support her. That was a difficult thing for her to experience, I have no doubt about that, but having him there, even if they are no longer together, probably means a hell of a lot more now than it did then-that's a major step. I'd shake his hand, for sure.

As for the secrecy surrounding terminations (I hate using the word abortion-because I know family who've had miscarriages, who were heartbroken when it happened. And they also fall under the term 'abortion'.) I think Ireland has a lot of issues with 'supposed' shame. I know myself, I've struggled with mental illness-an in the last number of years, I've been open with friends and family talking about it. But there's still this 'shame'. Like 'why do you have it'-'sure we all get depressed, we get over it' etc.

I know too many people who took their own lives-because of the 'shame'. Like it was something they could have prevented. It wasn't. So if a woman (preferably a couple) choose to make that difficult decision, and either/or choose not to talk about it. That's up to them.

Hitman3000

'Not at after 16 weeks I guess' what are you trying to say?

Grayson

Tigger wrote: »

sorry no at some point there is a mans child involved and that gives him rights
i do believe we are too far the other way and i invoted for the right to travel backnin the day but thats what i feel

No it doesn't. The man has, and should have no legal rights in this case. You cannot force a woman to have a child because you impregnated her. Just as you cannot force an abortion on a woman.

The man can discuss it with her. He can offer advice and support but in the end it's her that will have to go through the pregnancy.

And it's tough not having a say. I say this as a guy. I'd like to think there was something I could do. When a guy ends up in that situation they are essentially passengers on a journey they have no control over.

Tigger

Hitman3000 wrote: »

'Not at after 16 weeks I guess' what are you trying to say?

what are you trying to say?

Tigger

forget it at some point the fetus is more thn just clump of cells nd t some point it isnt

that point isn't birth its not conception either tho

i

Hitman3000

Tigger wrote:

what are you trying to say?

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I repeated what you asked of me as I have no idea as to what you have attempted to say. Maybe you will try again.

blarrah

Signed up just to comment on this thread, it touches home.

Girlfriend and I were quite young, fell pregnant, disastrous set of circumstances at the time (in hindsight, not so much, but that's hindsight for you). Exams, start of careers, completely unstable financially etc.

Its still a haze looking back at it, time dragged on and on, unsure what to do, stress coming from everywhere else as well. Before we knew it the baby was quite late in pregnancy (I honestly cant remember how many weeks, it was something "in the middle")

Snap decision made, went to UK. Wasn't actually present in person in the room, but girlfriend told me everything, and let me tell you, its horrific. I clearly remember her saying that "bits of her (her, as in the baby) were cut up and sucked out. No need for the other details.

That was many years ago, and although we still somewhat know each other (relationship ended), we have never once talked about it since. I can say hand on heart that at least 3 or 4 days a week I think about it, regret it in many ways. If we had continued and allowed our girl to be born it would have completely changed our lives, I have no doubt about that.

Careers probably would have gone in absolutely different directions, would have been poorer in the immediate term, would have been very stressful at the immediate time etc. But being older now, I know that you get over problems, and I'm very sure we would have gotten over those problems too.

I'm not in a relationship at the moment, neither is she. But having read this thread it just makes me think for the millionth time that I could, in an alternate reality, hear a laugh in the hall outside now and the girl would come skipping in, she'd be there and be my daughter. It really is dreadful to have that hang on you. I have no doubt whatsoever that my ex feels the same, if not much worse. I daren't ask, because what can be said now?

That's my experience, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, either the stress of not knowing what to do, or the reality of having done it. I just cant imagine, nor have I ever heard, anyone ever regretting having a child as much as NOT having a child.

I'm dreading the referendum next year, because its bad enough having these things live with you as well as having the whole thing shoved in your face every second through media, people knocking on doors and all that.

Anyone who says that having an abortion doesn't bother them, it just comes across as a seriously suspect personality to me. Anyone who can do such a thing and just treat it like nothing is unhinged or something, in my opinion. But there are plenty of strange people out there.

Anyone who says this is solely a womans choice is out of their mind. I cant think of a more selfish position to take. Its as plain as this, it involves the man, the woman, and the child. If all are present, then its a joint decision and there should be equal regard for all 3. Anything else is out of this world.

Its very easy to see the women who hate men (or lets say have a serious "problem" with men) hijacking the debate and turning it into womens rights, or me, me, me. Equally so, its easy to see the men who operate on the other side of it, trying to dictate entirely what should happen from their perspective.

Its a pity these "social warriors" will take control of the debate and be the loudest mouths. But what else was going to happen?!

The whole abortion issue is a bandaid for a far more serious problem in society. Instead of preventing all of these preventable pregnancies from happening, we've just accepted the problem and moved onto the short-sighted "solution" of abortion.

That's my two cents anyway. I wouldn't do it again if I could go back.

Ave Sodalis

blarrah wrote: »

I just cant imagine, nor have I ever heard, anyone ever regretting having a child as much as NOT having a child.

I used to work with a woman who very much regrets having her children. She loves her children and would do anything for them. They're all adults now, and one even had a child of her own but the woman I worked with confided that if she were to do it all again, she would never have had children.

To be honest, I would think my father strongly regrets having me and my brother. Given the horrid, sick feeling I get at the thought of having my own children, I know I would regret having children. I respect that you regret that your girlfriend at the time had an abortion, but it wouldn't be fair to apply that sentiment to others.

blarrah

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I used to work with a woman who very much regrets having her children. She loves her children and would do anything for them. They're all adults now, and one even had a child of her own but the woman I worked with confided that if she were to do it all again, she would never have had children.

To be honest, I would think my father strongly regrets having me and my brother. Given the horrid, sick feeling I get at the thought of having my own children, I know I would regret having children. I respect that you regret that your girlfriend at the time had an abortion, but it wouldn't be fair to apply that sentiment to others.

I've never heard anyone say anything similar. And I would imagine that everyone has bouts of fancy, "what if I did this, what if I did that"......but its probably just fanciful.

I'd imagine that if those women had their children in front of them and they were given the choice to get rid of them and have a different (unknown) life, I cant imagine a mother REALLY going for the trade. Its a nice soundbite and something to muse over, but I think reality would be different.

Another thing I'd say is a major factor (even for myself) is having other children. I don't have other children, and my tune might be different if I did. Its a really debase form of humanity, but sure maybe one is as good as another if you have them

Hitman3000

blarrah wrote:

That's my two cents anyway. I wouldn't do it again if I could go back.

Hindsight is awesome.

blarrah

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Hindsight is awesome.

It is, in its own way. It imparts wisdom, enabling you to see the reality of your mistakes, to see things beyond the immediate present and immediate self.