We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

Mr. CooL ICE

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

January

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

One poster here told her story of having an abortion when she found herself pregnant with a fifth child that her and her husband simply couldn’t support. They were using contraceptives. In 2015, 54% of women who terminated their pregnancies in the UK were already mothers. 70% were married or had partners. Your post reads as though you believe the only people who seek abortions are wild and flighty young wans and something needs to put a halt to their gallop.

If you agree with abortion “in certain circumstances”, it is not abortion you have an issue with, it’s the type of sex women are having.

Exactly. I have a responsibility to the children I already have.

_Kaiser_

Ultimately, all this is about is a choice.

Some people will make that choice (for a variety of reasons and circumstances), and others won't.

For those who do, it'll mean not having to go to the UK (as is and will continue to be the case if necessary) and the stress, and cost of that.

For those who don't, there's no impact to them at all.

The only basis then for denying people the choice is because you feel entitled to tell other people what's right for them. A decision you personally won't have to live with either way.

Anything else is based on religious thought on the matter, or metaphysics.. Not a good enough argument when it comes to deciding whether someone (else) should bring a child into the world IMO

solodeogloria

lazybones32 wrote: »

Being one of those "moralistic foetus savers that will never understand", who is also a male, i will briefly share my story.

In the October bank holiday weekend 2003, i met my drunken mother in a bar where she decided to confess to me - and those within earshot - that when she learned she was pregnant with me, she made plans to abort me. My dad had to bribe her to not kill me by taking her shopping in Dublin for a weekend.

Thanks to my dad, i'm alive.

So yeah, that's my experience and i'm so glad to be alive. I'm sure the other babies would like to live too, but fcuk them, right?

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

mohawk

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

This right here is why so many women who have had abortions keep it to themselves never telling anyone even their closest friends and family. Looking at the numbers of Irish women that have gone to the UK we probably all know someone who has made that journey.

GritBiscuit

solodeogloria wrote: »

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

If it were a case that it was merely the mass extinction of unborn children then the argument would be every bit as black and white as you are trying to paint it. Unfortunately the reality is somewhat different. It's a balancing act of inhumanity - forcing children who are victims of incest and abuse to carry pregnancies to term is also inhumane. Forcing couples who know their baby is not going to live to carry that child for 9 months and go through the birthing process even when they don't want to do that is inhumane, forcing rape victims to carry a pregnancy to term and not only have that one incident but their entire bodies and psyche permanently altered by their attacker is also inhumane.

Woman are not emotionless, irrelevant incubators for any and all potential life. They too have rights and have the right be treated humanely. The reason this is a contentious issue is precisely because it is one set of rights in direct contradiction of another. Neither option is without humanity, without suffering or without requiring their own special set of mental gymnastics and blinkered moral justification.

_Kaiser_

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

The thing I've learned on this thread is that people will go great lengths to justify the unjustifiable.

At the end of the day - killing an unborn child is killing an unborn child. One can dance around the issues all day long but I can't see this as anything other than an inhumane act that people justify.

Wiping over 50 million unborn children off the face of the earth every year cannot be in my mind morally justifiable.

Some of the responses to this post have been the worst kind of mental gymnastics. We need to call a spade a spade.

There's nothing metaphysical about this. This is just cold hard fact.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Your whole argument is based on the concept of an "unborn child" - metaphysics

But regardless, why do you feel you have the right to make that decision for someone else, especially when you won't be dealing with the consequences either way. It also naively assumes that "it'll all be grand" if someone goes through with a pregnancy they don't want.

What this referendum should really ask is "do we want to continue to force women who have made the choice to get an abortion - for whatever reason - to have to go to the UK to get it?"

Because ultimately that's what it is. Even if things here remain unchanged, it's still going to happen anyway

Maybe a better question then is:

"Do we want to give Irish women the support and care they should be automatically entitled to as citizens of this country if they make this decision"

QueenRizla

I am not sure why anyone would share their experiences here. It is more like a justify your abortion thread. A post that stated women who don't regret it are unhinged got a load of thanks!

Foweva Awone

I had an early abortion in Holles Street as it was an unviable pregnancy that would have endangered my life, if allowed to continue. It wasn't exactly a pleasant experience, and I was offered absolutely no follow-up support (despite the fact that I was still suffering serious post-natal mental health problems following a previous pregnancy and birth.)

The thoughts of having to organise going to another country to do what had to be done sounds absolutely overwhelming. The circumstances are really irrelevant - whether the pregnancy is viable or unviable, whether it was planned or unplanned, whatever. And then coming back here and being unable to seek any support that might be needed makes things even worse.

A pregnancy in the early stages (i.e. first trimester) is just a theoretical concept - it is not a person. At that stage, society's responsibility is to the woman who's actually carrying the embryo - to her health, to her physical and mental wellbeing. Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth to a baby is a life-altering experience and one that a woman should always have a choice in.

shesty

Cornelius Crow wrote: »

One poster here told her story of having an abortion when she found herself pregnant with a fifth child that her and her husband simply couldn’t support. They were using contraceptives. In 2015, 54% of women who terminated their pregnancies in the UK were already mothers. 70% were married or had partners. Your post reads as though you believe the only people who seek abortions are wild and flighty young wans and something needs to put a halt to their gallop.

If you agree with abortion “in certain circumstances”, it is not abortion you have an issue with, it’s the type of sex women are having.

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

Conor Bourke

shesty wrote: »

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

I’m not trying to vilify you, just pointing out the flaw to your logic. It’s okay to be uncomfortable with abortion, the state will never force you to have one. That said, abortion “on demand” is not a thing. It’s not a subscription service. It’s abortion “as needed” or “when requested”. It is a medical procedure.

Trust women. Trust that when they make a decision to terminate their pregnancy, they know that it’s the right thing for them in their circumstances. Try not to apply your judgement of what you would do if you were in their shoes or punish what you perceive as their carelessness for getting themselves into the situation in the first place (referring again to your remark re: consequences)

dudara

shesty wrote: »

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

I have had rather similar arguments in my own head and with others. I think we will have to either go all in or all out. Any other type of solution will be half-arsed. In my case, even though I have my dislikes, I'm going to support making choice available. If I don't support that, then I'm denying others their choice.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Your whole argument is based on the concept of an "unborn child" - metaphysics

Sorry - it isn't metaphysics, it's biological fact. From conception a human life is formed and it grows and develops to birth. After birth the baby grows and develops to be a toddler, and after being a toddler to a child, and after a child to be an adult, and eventually to natural death.

You can try fob that away by claiming it is metaphysics, but there's nothing essentially metaphysical or religious about this position. This is why there are atheists who are pro-life.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But regardless, why do you feel you have the right to make that decision for someone else, especially when you won't be dealing with the consequences either way. It also naively assumes that "it'll all be grand" if someone goes through with a pregnancy they don't want.

Decisions have limits in so far as they affect others. You can continue to deny that from conception there is an unborn child in the womb as much as you like, but I'm not buying it. Abortion kills. It makes an executive decision about whether someone else lives or dies. Morality isn't relative.

As for undesired pregnancy - there are options where the child can have a new home. Killing the child isn't the answer, nor does it give the child the opportunity to have a full life.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What this referendum should really ask is "do we want to continue to force women who have made the choice to get an abortion - for whatever reason - to have to go to the UK to get it?"

The referendum is a political matter. Irrespective of whether people vote for X, Y or Z it doesn't make it morally right to do so. Personally, I'm not posting here because of the referendum. I'm just amazed at the intellectual knots that people go to to declare what is wrong to be right.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because ultimately that's what it is. Even if things here remain unchanged, it's still going to happen anyway

Maybe a better question then is:

"Do we want to give Irish women the support and care they should be automatically entitled to as citizens of this country if they make this decision"

Yes, and no. Sure, some Irish women have abortions, but significantly less than in Wales which has a lower population than Ireland, but has abortion-by-choice. If the legislation lowers the number of abortions that happen in Ireland as relative to jurisdictions that have abortion-by-choice then I consider that a good law because lives are saved through it.

The claim that it has no affect isn't true.

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

Nobody is saying "sex is bad". Of course it is right in the right circumstances. It is wrong in other circumstances. Everyone would agree with this to a degree. For example, unconsented sexual activity is very very bad. This is an empty caricature that pro-choice advocates like to use in response to a consider pro-life position.

What's interesting about this post however is that you are implying that conjugal rights are more important than the right to life. That's where I unreservedly disagree with you. It certainly isn't.

Of course the right approach is to ensure that if we take risks that we are willing to take care of what may arise as a result of said risks. I will never be able to say that I consider killing a reasonable response to this. I know that's pretty blunt, but clear and serious matters demand a blunt response sometimes.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

scarepanda

Shesty, I agree with an awful lot in your post. Your right in that that it's not a black and white situation and that most people are somewhere in the shades of grey. Your also right in that not every situation can be legislated for. I would say I'm very pro choice, but there is one situation with 'abortion on demand' that I would be slightly grey on. But I'm not actually sure how often the situation would arise.

However, I believe that ' abortion on demand' should be allowed up to a certain point, and after that for health reasons. I believe that every woman in this country should have the right to choose what is best for them and their life. I also believe that there should be appropriate support before, during and after the procedure. I believe that this will help everyone make the best, most informed decision for their particular situation, and may be reduce the number of people who may regret their decision further down the road as is the case of a previous poster.

The debate around this topic always gets side tracked and goes down the you Vs me road about whos right or wrong about abortion, when the 8th amendment is about so much more than just abortion. People forget about the consequences it has on womens rights to informed consent on medical procedures. It also restricts how medical professionals treat pregnant women. Yes, it's supposed to give equal rights to the unborn child, but how the hell can an unborn child have equal rights to a born living woman before the pregnancy is viable (before 24 weeks)? In my opinion, the 8th amendment allows the unborn child have more rights than its mother by virtue of not choosing the mother's life over the baby, who is not at survivable gestational age.

In the case of FFA, no one has the right to dictate to a woman that she should carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to a baby who, if they survive labour, will most probably have a short and painful life. Most people will never have to endure that turmoil, and I don't think it's something you can have a strong black or white opinion on until/unless you have been in that situation.

And in the case of rape or incest, again I don't believe that woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will for something she had absolutely no choice in.

For what it's worth, I'm a woman and a mother to a beautiful little girl that I would give my life for. Iv, thankfully, never been in the position of having to consider termination of a pregnancy for whatever reason. And I honestly couldn't say what decision I would make if I found myself in a situation of having to make that decision. However I firmly believe that I should have absolute rights over my body and what does and doesn't happen to it. At the end of the day, repealing the 8th gives women choices and for those that wouldn't choose an abortion, it doesn't really affect your choice or personal beliefs. But that choice could save another woman's life.

Nicolas Cage

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

Yes. They may as well say people in car crashes should get no medical treatment as they took the risk of driving and should bear the consequences.

Not having a child you do not want and/or cannot care for is exactly taking responsibility. It is very odd to see the juxtaposition of 'it's a human life and therefore sacred/special/important' with 'it's just a consequence and a punishment you should bear for having sex.'

seamus

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

I've seen a lot of it, especially in the older generation. Woman who would vote against abortion as a concept and would say they consider it murder.

But the same women wouldn't even blink if you told them you'd had an abortion, and will recount tales of friends and family who made the trip, whom they don't think any less of.

I think many opponents are against abortion as a concept, an abstract; that is, when it affects someone else.

Outlaw Pete

Foweva Awone wrote: »

I had an early abortion in Holles Street as it was an unviable pregnancy that would have endangered my life, if allowed to continue.

Excellent that that was available to you. So, Ireland does care for women more than, or as much as, they do cattle... only some would have us believe differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=571vnkdrWC0

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/838749538596884480

A pregnancy in the early stages (i.e. first trimester) is just a theoretical concept - it is not a person. At that stage, society's responsibility is to the woman who's actually carrying the embryo - to her health, to her physical and mental wellbeing. Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth to a baby is a life-altering experience and one that a woman should always have a choice in.

You appear to contradict yourself here, philosophically at least, in that you first reason that there is no person's life being ended in the first trimester (an argument I can appreciate) but yet you then say that a woman should "always" have a choice. I mean, which is it... do you just endorse first trimester abortions, or do you believe a woman should be able to have an abortion whenever she wants?

Odhinn

solodeogloria wrote: »

Yes, and no. Sure, some Irish women have abortions, but significantly less than in Wales which has a lower population than Ireland, but has abortion-by-choice. If the legislation lowers the number of abortions that happen in Ireland as relative to jurisdictions that have abortion-by-choice then I consider that a good law because lives are saved through it.

....the legislation "lowers the number of abortions" by making them largely illegal. This causes irish women to go abroad, to Britain and elsewhere. All you're doing is exporting the problem, which has serious effects on those who go.

GritBiscuit

seamus wrote: »

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

Ah yes, the "not my neighbour/not my neighbourhood" brigade - a whole new weird kind of nimby-ism...hand in hand with those who throw around accusations of "baby murdering" but are happy - even voted for - women to have the right to information and the right to travel. Bizarre. Surely if you consider an abortion so heinous that you think of it as murdering a baby then you should be campaigning vocally and tirelessly for every pregnant woman/girl attempting to source an abortion, irrespective of circumstance, to be arrested on the spot and the keys thrown away...

_Dara_

seamus wrote: »

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

I've seen a lot of it, especially in the older generation. Woman who would vote against abortion as a concept and would say they consider it murder.

But the same women wouldn't even blink if you told them you'd had an abortion, and will recount tales of friends and family who made the trip, whom they don't think any less of.

I think many opponents are against abortion as a concept, an abstract; that is, when it affects someone else.

I’d wager that everyone here knows a woman who has had an abortion. They might not be aware of the fact but they likely do. Or multiple women. And they may even like that woman. When you don’t explicitly know someone who has had an abortion, it’s much easier to put devil horns on them. It’s much harder to do that when it’s someone you’ve assessed as a decent person.

solodeogloria

Odhinn wrote: »

....the legislation "lowers the number of abortions" by making them largely illegal. This causes irish women to go abroad, to Britain and elsewhere. All you're doing is exporting the problem, which has serious effects on those who go.

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Graham

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

I am pro choice because I believe that nobody has the right to tell another person what to do with their body, and for a few other reasons. However I'm torn about people talking openly about their abortion experiences.
The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

Odhinn

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The figures are an estimate, and don't cover irish women having illegal terminations here. Nor do they take into account the extra strain to the women who do travel.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

I am pro choice because I believe that nobody has the right to tell another person what to do with their body, and for a few other reasons. However I'm torn about people talking openly about their abortion experiences.
The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

I didn't get 'showiness' from any of the posts.

I think it's quite brave that so many people are sharing their experiences from a first-hand point of view rather than just the usual preaching from both sides.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

I didn't get 'showiness' from any of the posts.

I think it's quite brave that so many people are sharing their experiences from a first-hand point of view rather than just the usual preaching from both sides.

It is brave to put yourself out there and talk about difficult experience of abortion yet there is a part of me that finds it a little off. I have yet to figure out why that is.

solodeogloria

Graham wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

solodeogloria

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

'The truth is the truth - I'm just right and you're just wrong' - is not an effective argument in any debate, and reducing a long term debate like this one into such nonsense will get nobody anywhere

Graham

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

While I absolutely respect your right to hold such an opinion, I don't agree that you (or anyone else) should be able to force your opinion/decisions on anybody else.

Many thanks

solodeogloria

bluewolf wrote: »

'The truth is the truth - I'm just right and you're just wrong' - is not an effective argument in any debate, and reducing a long term debate like this one into such nonsense will get nobody anywhere

Good afternoon!

There are plenty of issues in life that I would give way on.

There are other issues in life which are irreconcilable. That tension will be held indefinitely. It needs to be understood, there is no possible forward path for those who disagree on this issue. Life and death issues aren't really something I'm inclined to give way on because the right to life isn't dispensable.

Others might disagree, but I'm of the mind that there have to be fundamental limits to our choices. The limits come where it is at fundamental odds with the rights of others.

Graham wrote: »

While I absolutely respect your right to hold such an opinion, I don't agree that you (or anyone else) should be able to force your opinion/decisions on anybody else.

Many thanks

I don't think anyone has the right to force death on another. That's what this issue is about when push comes to shove. If it wasn't I'd happily give way on it, but it is a bridge too far.

That's at the crux of this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Mr.H

I have no problem with abortion. It should be an option. What I don't like is the fact that some people can actually say "I had two abortion and I know someone who had three". I mean FFS that's ridiculous. You realise this is not a haircut but a very invasive procedure?

I'd like to think I am pro choice but stories like that worry me about the maturity of some.

Abortion needs to be available but I don't think it should be on tap. People need to take some responsibility. Don't have unprotected sex and you won't get pregnant.

Obviously I am not talking about extreme cases and this is the reason I said it needs to be available.

Should it be there for extreme cases? Yes

@ no

Mr.H

Graham wrote:

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

There are loads of contraceptive options

Toastytoes

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't think anyone has the right to force death on another. That's what this issue is about when push comes to shove. If it wasn't I'd happily give way on it, but it is a bridge too far.

That's at the crux of this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Tell that to the family of Savita who had death forced upon her as a result of the 8th and it’s implications for the management of her miscarriage.

Ave Sodalis

Mr.H wrote: »

Don't have unprotected sex and you won't get pregnant.

Unfortunately, this isn't entirely true. Even when used correctly, contraception can still fail.

Hitman3000

Mr.H wrote:

There are loads of contraceptive options

Which can fail.

solodeogloria

Toastytoes wrote: »

Tell that to the family of Savita who had death forced upon her as a result of the 8th and it’s implications for the management of her miscarriage.

Good afternoon!

If you had read my posts so far I've clearly distinguished between a termination that happens in a life or death issue to save a life and one that is carried out as a matter of choice.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hitman3000

solodeogloria wrote:

If you had read my posts so far I've clearly distinguished between a termination that happens in a life or death issue to save a life and one that is carried out as a matter of choice.

So your issue is a woman having a choice over her own body?

solodeogloria

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So your issue is a woman having a choice over her own body?

Good afternoon!

No - over the death of the child that results from said decision. There are two bodies involved. This is what the pro-choice side of this argument never wants to engage with.

If it were merely a decision about a woman's body I'd happily have given way a long time ago on this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hitman3000

solodeogloria wrote:

No - over the death of the child that results from said decision. There are two bodies involved. This is what the pro-choice side of this argument never wants to engage with.

The woman's body to my mind takes precedence much to the dislike of the anti choice brigade. A foetus has no superior rights to the woman. Her body her choice. You can use all the emotive words you wish ie murder/killing execution lessens your argument tbh. My vote when the time comes will firmly side with a woman's choice to her own bodies integrity.

LadyMacBeth_

I think it's a good thing to have a place for women and men to discuss their experiences of abortion, rather than the usual threads we have here that go around in the same circles, there has been some of that of course, but some people just can't be respectful and leave the conversation alone. I'm pro choice, and I believe in abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and in the case of ffa or risk to the woman then I think later abortions are necessary. Good on the women who have spoken about their abortions here on the thread, it can't be an easy thing to discuss when you do have people out there that demonise you. I haven't had one myself so I have no idea what it's like and I don't presume to know.

I have a genetic illness that can now be tested for in pregnancy, it's Cystic Fibrosis, it can only be tested for if the parents are aware that they are carriers. I was born in 1988 and CF genes only began to be discovered in 1989 so this wasn't an option for my parents, nor did they know they were carriers. I was diagnosed at the age of 14 which is quite old for people with CF, usually it is discovered as babies or toddlers. My mother has never coped very well with my illness, usually she is in complete denial and doesn't really seem to be able to acknowledge it. I've done all of my own research and treatment since I found out, she helped a bit when I was younger but she has always referred to me as a strain or a burden, which hasn't been easy to hear. I asked her once if she would have aborted me had she known, and she said she didn't know. I think she would have, and in fairness to her, I wouldn't blame her at all for that decision, I know exactly why she would have made it and I understand. I don't think she is cut out to have an ill child and I don't think she ever was, and I wouldn't have known the difference.

Tigger

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The woman's body to my mind takes precedence much to the dislike of the anti choice brigade. A foetus has no superior rights to the woman. Her body her choice. You can use all the emotive words you wish ie murder/killing execution lessens your argument tbh. My vote when the time comes will firmly side with a woman's choice to her own bodies integrity.

its not superior in the case of loke for like the poster is clear its only on the case of killing the fetus v the hassel of going through the pregnancy
you can give the baby away at the end loads of irish people want to adopt

i personally feel that early ellective and then ffa or dangerous cases should be assured so tgat the rational middle voters push this referrundum over the line

this talk of the ultimat rights of the mother to have elective late terminations makes me feel the teferrundum will fail

I don't think any women want elective late term ones

MrPudding

lazybones32 wrote: »

Being one of those "moralistic foetus savers that will never understand", who is also a male, i will briefly share my story.

In the October bank holiday weekend 2003, i met my drunken mother in a bar where she decided to confess to me - and those within earshot - that when she learned she was pregnant with me, she made plans to abort me. My dad had to bribe her to not kill me by taking her shopping in Dublin for a weekend.

Thanks to my dad, i'm alive.

So yeah, that's my experience and i'm so glad to be alive. I'm sure the other babies would like to live too, but fcuk them, right?

Meh. My mother got pregnant with me when she was 17. She was lucky that the parish priest where she lived was not a complete dick, and that her mother and father did not care about any "shame" she had brought on the family. So, the pregnancy continued and I was born. My biological father, when he found out she was pregnant, offered by mother some tablets which he told her would "make the problem go away." Obviously, she did not take them. But here's the thing. I genuinely wish she had have taken them.

Her pregnancy and my birth ruined her life. She was in grammar school, and was doing very well and had a bright future ahead of her. Instead of that bright future she worked in Woolworths for about 21 year, followed by so other low paying retail job. In her late 50s she trained as a pharmacy dispenser, but still only earned just above minimum wage. Her life has been sh1t, and it is a direct result of having me when she was 18.

I love my life, and I love my kids, I am glad to be alive and my mother is extremely proud of what i have achieved, and she would never, ever say she regretted having me. But I know her life would have been so much better and more fulfilling if she had taken those pills. And I would not have known anything about it, and that does not bother me.

MrP

One eyed Jack

GritBiscuit wrote: »

Ah yes, the "not my neighbour/not my neighbourhood" brigade - a whole new weird kind of nimby-ism...hand in hand with those who throw around accusations of "baby murdering" but are happy - even voted for - women to have the right to information and the right to travel. Bizarre. Surely if you consider an abortion so heinous that you think of it as murdering a baby then you should be campaigning vocally and tirelessly for every pregnant woman/girl attempting to source an abortion, irrespective of circumstance, to be arrested on the spot and the keys thrown away...

I've met plenty of women who think like that, and tbh I'm relieved they're not out doing what you imagine they should be doing.

I don't think it's nimbyism at all, I've never met a woman yet who wanted women to have abortions. I've no doubt women who think like that exist, I just haven't had the pleasure. Any woman I've ever talked to about this would prefer that women didn't have to have abortions, they wished that there were alternatives to abortion more than they wished for abortion to be available to women.

And I think that's what they're viewing as an abstract concept - abortion. They don't view women as an abstract concept, quite the opposite in many cases - they imagine other women are just like them, and they imagine those women in their circumstances, not the opposite way around. They imagine those women to be just like them and imagine that those women think exactly the same way as them. It's exactly where the "I wouldn't have one myself, but I wouldn't stop any other women having one" comes from. They recognise already that they have no input into whether or not another woman chooses to have an abortion, and so they wash their hands of any responsibility towards those women who choose to have an abortion.

For them there's no contradiction in choosing to vote against supporting broadening our laws regarding the availability of abortion in this country, and their own personal moral stance on abortion. Their argument is based upon exercising their rights in a democratic republic, where they do have a direct input into the guiding document which governs that democracy - the Irish Constitution.

It's not nimbyism, it's nothing personal against any other woman, it's democracy, and exercising their right to vote, and their right to freedom of expression. I don't agree with them, but I don't feel any obligation to go shouting my disagreement from the rooftops or on social media either. I prefer to be discreet about it, because just like it's much harder to paint women who have had abortions as less than human when we know them personally, it's also just as hard to paint anyone with whom I disagree with as less than human, when I know them personally.

Carry

My mother used to say: when the cat is out of the house, the mice party ... (only joking).

It’s sad that some people try to hijack this thread despite several appeals to keep it free of ideological quarrels.

I try to keep up with the discussion, without responding to every post

blarrah: I wanted to thank you for your contribution about your harrowing experience until I got to the end of your tale where it turned into a rant and insults of other people.
I do understand that you have regrets, but I think you should start to forgive yourself. It’s eating you up obviously and you turn your assumed self-hatred towards others.
It’s awful to have an abortion so late. I couldn’t do that. But I think that wouldn’t have happened if abortion were available in Ireland.
I had to smile though at your suggestion that abortion or not is (I paraphrase) “a joint decision between man, woman and child”. I just tried to imagine how this would work ...

Ave sodalis: Regretting to have children is indeed not uncommon. I’ve read recently an article about such women who wouldn’t dare to say it out loud or publicly, understandably. That doesn’t mean they don’t love their kids, they just think about their own lives that could have been without children.
It’s still the woman’s job to mainly raise the children, at least in a traditional set-up, so they are the ones who actually have to deal with all the troubles children can cause. Daddy comes home from work and plays a little and tells bedtime stories. They are not worn out like mothers. I’m sure there are more hands-on daddies today than in my generation, well, I’m not sure, I just hope.

permabear: I’m glad you are happy with your kids and it’s recommendable that you obviously looked after your first child on your own.
But you impregnated your partner when she was 15? Was she even legal? And than again at 19? I’d call that irresponsible. I’d wonder how your partner sees it.

solodeogloria: “Glory to god alone” would your name mean if your Latin were correct (soli deo gloria), but o and i are neighbours on the keyboard so it could be a typo.
I don’t even know where to start with you, so I don’t start at all. Only that much: You are completely off topic and apparently completely without compassion, empathy and understanding.

Deleted User: You think something is off about talking openly about personal experiences with abortion? Hmm.
Sometimes reality can be very uncomfortable, but to keep quiet about whatever might be the case is often very uncomfortable for the affected and it’s certainly unhealthy. Try to find out what makes you really uncomfortable about reading about all this. I for one am interested.

Tigger

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't think any women want elective late term ones

ok so they shouldnt be allowed except in ffa cases and when the mothers lofe is at risk
so i feel that early elective aborting should be allowed in the first trimester
this might pass in my opinion
however the yes side will put peole off if they continue to say it should be always up tonthe woman

ceadaoin.

Tigger wrote: »

ok so they shouldnt be allowed except in ffa cases and when the mothers lofe is at risk
so i feel that early elective aborting should be allowed in the first trimester
this might pass in my opinion
however the yes side will put peole off if they continue to say it should be always up tonthe woman

You continue to talk about this despite numerous posters stating that

A- it's highly unlikely that there won't be a limit imposed up to which point elective terminations are allowed

B- even if there is no limit, women simply do not choose to terminate late stage pregnancies for non medical reasons, so the situation you keep describing (a woman weeks away from giving birth deciding on a whim that she no longer wants a child) will rarely, if ever, happen

GritBiscuit

One eyed Jack wrote:

I've met plenty of women who think like that, and tbh I'm relieved they're not out doing what you imagine they should be doing.
....

Of course not. Imagine seeing exactly what enforcing their views absolutely on others would actually entail, perrish the thought. Far better that we hush up & just turn a blind eye to these fallen women and heartless parents sneaking into the UK and just sit back in our ivory towers pointing and judging.

It is very much a perverse nimbyism. Provide advice and information, organise treatments and supply post abortion care but as long as the abortions themselves aren't happening on Irish soil in any but the most obvious and extreme cases and even that isn't sufficient to save maternal lives...it's nothing a decent bit of carpet sweeping can't justify. Without a doubt if there hadn't been a geographically close neighbour with complex political ties to Ireland, this issue would have had to have been legislated for a long time ago.

The cowardly hypocrisy that this country has been/is wrapped up in is shameful...I'm delighted the tide is turning and turning at a rate a knots inconceivable even a couple of decades ago. I've no doubt giving a voice to a side traditionally carpet swept pre-referenda (whether in traditional or on social media) has made a difference to modernising the Constitution for Irish people, in Ireland...which is very much a positive imo.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

I am pro choice because I believe that nobody has the right to tell another person what to do with their body, and for a few other reasons. However I'm torn about people talking openly about their abortion experiences.
The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

This country loves to keep secrets doesn't it. Don't tell people you were sexually abused, that you are gay, that you had an abortion......

I don't talk about my abortion to show off, I'd never mention it outside of this debate. I am open because I'm sick of hearing people debate this without hearing the voice of those actually affected. I'm sick hearing people talk about women who have abortions as though they are a certain type of person. I tell my story because I can, I know the people around me love and support me and respect my choice. No one who matters will judge. And I've a thick enough skin that random comments from unknown people on the internet about what a terrible person I am are no bother to me. There are a lot of women going to be exposed to the murderer and child killer stuff coming down the line who won't feel able to speak out about it.

I don't talk about it to make people uncomfortable but it's an uncomfortable truth that three thousand women travel to the UK each year and others have unsafe abortions here. We finally have a chance to vote so hell yeah I am going to talk about it. You can be damn sure the anti choice crowd will have plenty of stuff to say about us.

Tigger

ceadaoin. wrote: »

You continue to talk about this despite numerous posters stating that

A- it's highly unlikely that there won't be a limit imposed up to which point elective terminations are allowed

B- even if there is no limit, women simply do not choose to terminate late stage pregnancies for non medical reasons, so the situation you keep describing (a woman weeks away from giving birth deciding on a whim that she no longer wants a child) will rarely, if ever, happen

a- if itvdosnt happen then theres no need for it to happen
b- second trimester abortions are not unherd of and early terminations are defined as first trimester
3- the no side will tell the undecided that the yes side want late stage abortions so its better for it all to be clear
iv- down syndrome fetuese are often aborted very late which is another issue