IRELAND Vs SOUTH AFRICA match thread

MJohnston

Having a 10 point rating system is utterly pointless, follow the herd without giving it a second thought kind of mentality. It's shíte.

Three Red Kings have it close to this, although they word it differently, but for me the only way we should rate players is:

• Played below the team standard
• Played at the team standard
• Played above the team standard

You could arguably squeeze in two "very below/above" categories there too if you were being extra fussy. But ultimately this is what it all boils down to anyway. And nobody in the Irish team played below the team standard in this match. Quite a few played above it, quite a few played at it.

prawnsambo

MJohnston wrote: »

Having a 10 point rating system is utterly pointless, follow the herd without giving it a second thought kind of mentality. It's shíte.

Three Red Kings have it close to this, although they word it differently, but for me the only way we should rate players is:

• Played below the team standard
• Played at the team standard
• Played above the team standard

You could arguably squeeze in two "very below/above" categories there too if you were being extra fussy. But ultimately this is what it all boils down to anyway. And nobody in the Irish team played below the team standard in this match. Quite a few played above it, quite a few played at it.

And just to echo that, the Telegraph team of the week had Bundee, Stockdale, Furlong, Henderson, POM and Stander.

Beauden Barrett and Antoine Dupont were the half backs btw.

Edit: Just to note that the scoreline was the second highest margin of defeat SA has ever conceded in the NH. The highest was in Twickenham against England back in 2002.

One other important point on Kearney is that his selection also has to be looked at in the context of Payne being injured and Zebo being left out. If the former was fit and the latter signed a new IRFU contract then for all we know Kearney is the 3rd choice fullback.

He's a grand game on Saturday. Did exactly what was required of him and he without a doubt helped out the two guys either side of him.

Neil3030

MJohnston wrote: »

Having a 10 point rating system is utterly pointless, follow the herd without giving it a second thought kind of mentality. It's shíte.

Three Red Kings have it close to this, although they word it differently, but for me the only way we should rate players is:

• Played below the team standard
• Played at the team standard
• Played above the team standard

You could arguably squeeze in two "very below/above" categories there too if you were being extra fussy. But ultimately this is what it all boils down to anyway. And nobody in the Irish team played below the team standard in this match. Quite a few played above it, quite a few played at it.

Ah, I don't know. I mean you're already at a five-point scale there, what makes the ten-point scale so much more egregious?

Plus, depending on what you mean by "team standard" the bold above could actually be a mathematically impossibility. If you have a predetermined team standard, then yes, it can be possible for some to be above it, and everyone else equal to it. But if the standard is determined by the performance on the day, then you can't have some people above it without some people being below it.

Buer

Thank f*ck we have the fascinating discussion of Rob Kearney to distract us from that underwhelming game at the weekend.

The Rape of Lucretia

Buer wrote: »

Thank f*ck we have the fascinating discussion of Rob Kearney to distract us from that underwhelming game at the weekend.

You are at the same thing. Can we stop talking about Kearney, who is now peripheral to Ireland affairs. This thread is about Tristan O'Halloran as Ireland fullback, so can we keep on topic please.

MarinersBlues

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are at the same thing. Can we stop talking about Kearney, who is now peripheral to Ireland affairs. This thread is about Tristan O'Halloran as Ireland fullback, so can we keep on topic please.

and JERSEYS.

Remember, remember the 11th of November,
Jersey contrast we could not spot.
We see no reason
Why the jersey treason
Should ever be forgot!

sydthebeat

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are at the same thing. Can we stop talking about Kearney, who is now peripheral to Ireland affairs. This thread is about Tristan O'Halloran as Ireland fullback, so can we keep on topic please.

who??

Yeah_Right

Deusexmachina wrote: »

He does it all the time

I don't think Marmion does speed up the game with his passing. I've noticed that he takes a couple of steps after he picks the ball up from the base of the ruck. He very rarely seems to fire it clean from the ground.

I'd say he has zero chance of displacing Murray. Marmion's passing and kicking game are no where near Murray's standard. Also his game management and defensive ability are well below Murray's. The one area he might be ahead of Murray is his running game.

I think Marmion is more likely to be replaced as Ireland's back up halfback than he is to become the first choice.

prawnsambo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

and JERSEYS.

Remember, remember the 11th of November,
Jersey contrast we could not spot.
We see no reason
Why the jersey treason
Should ever be forgot!

It confused the Saffers no end. Conway would never have stolen that ball for his try had he been wearing white.

.ak

prawnsambo wrote: »

It confused the Saffers no end. Conway would never have stolen that ball for his try had he been wearing white.

I absolutely loved that. Daylight robbery. His hand speed was amazing, on slo mo it looked full speed, their hooker was just grasping at air.

awec

Ruaidhri OConnor in the indo gave Kearney a 7, along with Toner and POM.

Everyone else got 8.

MarinersBlues

prawnsambo wrote: »

It confused the Saffers no end. Conway would never have stolen that ball for his try had he been wearing white.

I was sure Henderson was about to tackle him as well.
He only changed his mind when Conway started running toward the SA try-line.

Buer

awec wrote: »

Ruaidhri OConnor in the indo gave Kearney a 7, along with Toner and POM.

Everyone else got 8.

I think that's fair enough. I thought Toner was quite prominent around the field and very tidy at the set piece so may has justified a higher mark but I wouldn't argue too much about it. I thought most of the pack performed to a very similar standard and were the epitome of a unit.

I've seen a huge disparity in the marking of the media though so I really wouldn't put any stock in it. None of them have an opinion that matters nor are they any more valid than most of us on here.

I think RTE had their player ratings up within 5 minutes of full time and they were clearly written during the match.

It was completely a team performance. I don't think there was anyone who really stood out as having a huge performance although there were a few eye catching ones.

prawnsambo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

I was sure Henderson was about to tackle him as well.
He only changed his mind when Conway started running toward the SA try-line.

It gets funnier. Conway thought Sexton was a Saffer and gave him a 'bit of an elbow' as he got closer to him.

stephen_n

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Against that he is zero running threat (always seems to find the first defender and runs into him)

Maybe and I know you haven't considered this, but that could be the work on that TOH isn't managing to do. i.e exactly what Joe looks for in his full backs.

Deusexmachina wrote: »

and he is a poor tackler. Both essentials at this level I would have thought.

Seriously? are you suggesting that's a strength for TOH?

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Yes. If only that mattered.

Well it does actually, it's called positioning which is hugely important for fullbacks. Again for all we know a possible work on that TOH is not demonstrating to Joe.

prawnsambo

stephen_n wrote: »

Well it does actually, it's called positioning which is hugely important for fullbacks. Again for all we know a possible work on that TOH is not demonstrating to Joe.

I actually think one of TOH's main work-ons for Joe is being prepared to get in and protect ball, especially in the wide channels. It was something I noticed Zebo brought to his game in the last couple of years and something which TOH would very seldom do in the last couple of season under Pat Lam; which I suspect was what he was referring to when he couldn't do work-ons becaise of the way Connacht played. Pat would seem to have preferred his backs stay out of the contact area to be available for attack.

KK seems to prefer the Joe approach and TOH looks to be getting his hands dirtier this season.

MJohnston

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ah, I don't know. I mean you're already at a five-point scale there, what makes the ten-point scale so much more egregious?

Plus, depending on what you mean by "team standard" the bold above could actually be a mathematically impossibility. If you have a predetermined team standard, then yes, it can be possible for some to be above it, and everyone else equal to it. But if the standard is determined by the performance on the day, then you can't have some people above it without some people being below it.

Well no, it's a 3 point scale, I said you could add 2 more if you were being extra fussy, which I don't think is necessary

Yes, if you were giving a certain amount of importance to player ratings you'd probably want to have a baseline standard I suppose, but really they're just a quick and dirty summation of a match, nothing more - I think judging players generally against a kind of vague team standard per match is fine. I understand what you're saying - if there's an average, then someone's got to be below it, but I guess "playing at the team standard" probably means more "Playing at or close to the team standard", whereas the other two categories are for players who really stood out in a positive or negative way.

swiwi_

molloyjh wrote: »

And people wonder why the guy gets so much grief. With crap like that in the mainstream media it's no wonder. He wasn't fantastic on the day, but he was ultimately no better or worse than most out there. A lot of solid 7s with a couple of 8s is a fair reflection I reckon.

Thought Kearney was grand myself. Usually any discussion around RK follows a simple algorithm

Leinster supporter: in favour of Kearney
Other province supporter: not in favour of Kearney

If I was to single any Irish back out for a bit of a meh performance it would be Henshaw.

I see IO mentioned in other thread that RK is not DMac: Kiwis fans (and the coach) are not particularly sold on DMac at FB because while he can be flashy, he doesn't do the basics of FB play that well at international level. I suppose people would say the opposite applies to RK, does the basics well, can lack some attacking X-factor.

If were are looking at the othere side of things, Leinster fans should acknowledge that the somewhat maligned (this season) Stander and POM went pretty OK, and you couldn't really justify starting Conan or Leavy ahead, although Ruddock would have a case.

prawnsambo

swiwi_ wrote: »

If I was to single any Irish back out for a bit of a meh performance it would be Henshaw.

Funny you should say that. On another thread people were saying Garry Ringrose would have a fight on his hands getting back in the squad following from Aki's performance. My point was that the fight could well be with Henshaw.

prawnsambo

SA Times are reporting that Coetzee's weeks are numbered. Probably will make it through the Autumn series but that's it.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

SA Times are reporting that Coetzee's weeks are numbered. Probably will make it through the Autumn series but that's it.

Ah his position has to be untenable at this stage. He's been a disaster tbh.

swiwi_

prawnsambo wrote: »

SA Times are reporting that Coetzee's weeks are numbered. Probably will make it through the Autumn series but that's it.

They should appoint Ackerman, maybe with Erasmus.

As much as it’s nice seeing Ireland play well it was a bit tarnished for me seeing SA so poor.

If they appoint another token coach based on skin colour it will be disappointing.

Burkie1203

swiwi_ wrote: »

If were are looking at the othere side of things, Leinster fans should acknowledge that the somewhat maligned (this season) Stander and POM went pretty OK

Stander and SOB were excellent in an understated kind of way. They were super effective in what they did. POM wasnt as good but he still had a very good 50 minutes or so. Ruddock was probably a little unlucky to not start but given the backrow performances its hard to argue against the selection

The problem with judging RK is people see TOH for example doing what he does for connacht and expect RK to either do the same for Ireland or be replaced. I would say Joe was happy with RKs display.

Ireland were very efficient on saturday. There was errors and it wasnt perfect but I got the sense that they were willing to bide their time.

I think Conway could have a future at 15 for Ireland. He is somewhere between RK and TOH in terms of his game.

prawnsambo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Stander and SOB were excellent in an understated kind of way. They were super effective in what they did. POM wasnt as good but he still had a very good 50 minutes or so. Ruddock was probably a little unlucky to not start but given the backrow performances its hard to argue against the selection

I wouldn't say Stander was understated. A couple of turnovers, but he was getting stuck in every time the opportunity presented and had a few decent carries. SOB was in the trenches with him slowing down ball and making life extremely difficult for their attack.

Nothing really flashy, but the effect of what they were doing was huge. SA had slow ball all day against a set defence that was up in their faces. I think Joe spoke about how we attacked without the ball. That really summed it up for me.

Burkie1203

prawnsambo wrote: »

I wouldn't say Stander was understated. A couple of turnovers, but he was getting stuck in every time the opportunity presented and had a few decent carries. SOB was in the trenches with him slowing down ball and making life extremely difficult for their attack.

Nothing really flashy, but the effect of what they were doing was huge. SA had slow ball all day against a set defence that was up in their faces. I think Joe spoke about how we attacked without the ball. That really summed it up for me.

Nothing really flashy is probably a better way of putting it then understated. It was what i meant though.

Zzippy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

You are at the same thing. Can we stop talking about Kearney, who is now peripheral to Ireland affairs. This thread is about Tristan O'Halloran as Ireland fullback, so can we keep on topic please.

Grow up. This rubbish is making this forum unreadable at times. It's not a whatsapp group for your schoolboy mates. Discuss rugby without the snide remarks and silly nicknames. Trolling is a bannable offence, and you're straying very close to that line.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

Thought Kearney was grand myself. Usually any discussion around RK follows a simple algorithm

Leinster supporter: in favour of Kearney
Other province supporter: not in favour of Kearney

If I was to single any Irish back out for a bit of a meh performance it would be Henshaw.

I see IO mentioned in other thread that RK is not DMac: Kiwis fans (and the coach) are not particularly sold on DMac at FB because while he can be flashy, he doesn't do the basics of FB play that well at international level. I suppose people would say the opposite applies to RK, does the basics well, can lack some attacking X-factor.

If were are looking at the othere side of things, Leinster fans should acknowledge that the somewhat maligned (this season) Stander and POM went pretty OK, and you couldn't really justify starting Conan or Leavy ahead, although Ruddock would have a case.

I thought Stander had a very good game. Exactly the performance he needed to deliver. He was busy and effective. POM was decent, but Ruddock made such an impact when he came on that we may see a battle there. I don’t think Leavy or Conan were ever really going to force their way ahead of anyone unless Stander had a total stinker and then maybe Conan might have had a shot.

As for Kearney, he was grand. More like POMs performance than Standers for sure. But with few others making a strong case he’d be a bit more comfortable in terms of his starting spot. People should remember that this was our first game since finding out Zebo won’t be around and we were blooding wingers. It’s not the end of the world if we don’t have readily identifiable depth at FB within a matter of weeks.

Totally agree about SAs poor performance taking a real gloss off the day. It’s disappointing to see such a big and proud side where they are. But there’s more important issues they need to address there than a few rugby matches.

prawnsambo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Nothing really flashy is probably a better way of putting it then understated. It was what i meant though.

In some ways (and I leave myself open to twitter rage here ) I think Stander is taking up the role Jamie Heaslip occupied with the number 8 shirt. Tackle, carry the ball into better field position sucking in as many defenders as possible, hit rucks and protect the ball at all costs.

Deusexmachina

swiwi_ wrote: »

Thought Kearney was grand myself. Usually any discussion around RK follows a simple algorithm

Leinster supporter: in favour of Kearney
Other province supporter: not in favour of Kearney

If I was to single any Irish back out for a bit of a meh performance it would be Henshaw.

I see IO mentioned in other thread that RK is not DMac: Kiwis fans (and the coach) are not particularly sold on DMac at FB because while he can be flashy, he doesn't do the basics of FB play that well at international level. I suppose people would say the opposite applies to RK, does the basics well, can lack some attacking X-factor.

If were are looking at the othere side of things, Leinster fans should acknowledge that the somewhat maligned (this season) Stander and POM went pretty OK, and you couldn't really justify starting Conan or Leavy ahead, although Ruddock would have a case.

I’m a Leinster supporter and I think Kearney is limited.
The rugby forum is a pain the neck in general. So much group think.

prawnsambo

Deusexmachina wrote: »

I’m a Leinster supporter and I think Kearney is limited.
The rugby forum is a pain the neck in general. So much group think.

You haven't been around here much if that's what you think.

baas baa

swiwi_ wrote: »

Thought Kearney was grand myself. Usually any discussion around RK follows a simple algorithm

Leinster supporter: in favour of Kearney
Other province supporter: not in favour of Kearney

If I was to single any Irish back out for a bit of a meh performance it would be Henshaw.

I see IO mentioned in other thread that RK is not DMac: Kiwis fans (and the coach) are not particularly sold on DMac at FB because while he can be flashy, he doesn't do the basics of FB play that well at international level. I suppose people would say the opposite applies to RK, does the basics well, can lack some attacking X-factor.

If were are looking at the othere side of things, Leinster fans should acknowledge that the somewhat maligned (this season) Stander and POM went pretty OK, and you couldn't really justify starting Conan or Leavy ahead, although Ruddock would have a case.

Thought Henshaw was very good, was a big presence defensively with some tidy moments in attack most notably the kick and chase after tidying up Kearneys error. Can see why you'd think otherwise though as he didnt have many eye catching moments that you might expect from a 13. I can see Henshaw eventually becoming a much maligned player like Kearney. I think he's quite limited in attack at test level which is why Schmidt built a basic gameplan around him at 12. He still has a big influence on games though and will remain a fixture in the Irish midfield irregardless of the form of others.

bilston

MarinersBlues wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

It confused the Saffers no end. Conway would never have stolen that ball for his try had he been wearing white.

I was sure Henderson was about to tackle him as well.
He only changed his mind when Conway started running toward the SA try-line.

I almost wish that had happened!

bilston

So what is the general view of Aki's performance? I loved his commitment and his tackle in the first seconds set the tone. His defence was immense and while his passing to Conway wasn't exactly.on the money he showed a willingness to get it wide quickly.

We didn't see a lot of him in attack but in the same way as the Payne detractors claimed he offered little in attack at 13 we may find that Aki's running will be slightly inhibited at test level. It will be his handling skills that will be more of a weapon.

A good start but the midfield remains wide open if Ali, Henshaw, Payne and Ringrose are all fit at the same time.

CIARAN_BOYLE

bilston wrote: »

I almost wish that had happened!

Watching a replay of it there's a half second where Henderson's arm is on Conways back after Conway catches the ball.

Neil3030

Oh man, if Hendy had creeled his own man there - I genuinely think I'd still be laughing right now.

MarinersBlues

MarinersBlues wrote: »

I was sure Henderson was about to tackle him as well.
He only changed his mind when Conway started running toward the SA try-line.

bilston wrote: »

I almost wish that had happened!

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Watching a replay of it there's a half second where Henderson's arm is on Conways back after Conway catches the ball.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Oh man, if Hendy had kreeled his own man there - I genuinely think I'd still be laughing right now.

Honestly, the more I watch that clip the more hilarious it gets - there is total confusion as to what's going on, Conway does the biggest "Yooink" ever and the one Saffer who reaches for the ball clutches air and then keeps looking at the air in confusion. No one reacts straight away because no one is sure which team has the ball.

If Henderson had tackled him there it would be the .gif for the ages.

connemara man

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Honestly, the more I watch that clip the more hilarious it gets - there is total confusion as to what's going on, Conway does the biggest "Yooink" ever and the one Saffer who reaches for the ball clutches air and then keeps looking at the air in confusion. No one reacts straight away because no one is sure which team has the ball.

If Henderson had tackled him there it would be the .gif for the ages.

He puts both hands on Conway. could have been!

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/929750963308716032

awec

The kit clash was ridiculous in fairness. We may as well have worn green.

connemara man

connemara man wrote: »

He puts both hands on Conway. could have been!

https://twitter.com/threeredkings/status/929750963308716032

Maybe he just thinks dem kurvs b phat

Peregrine

I'm just trying to find the exact moment Henderson went from 'Come here, you little bugger!' to 'Go on, my son!'.

prawnsambo

Peregrine wrote: »

I'm just trying to find the exact moment Henderson went from 'Come here, you little bugger!' to 'Go on, my son!'.

He actually gave Henderson a dig with his elbow. In his interview he thought it was Sexton, but clearly it was Hendo who got a dig of the right elbow. Did the job though, he let go.

baas baa

It was great footwork from Conway. By the time Marx turned his head he was already 3/4 yards away. Obviously caught Henderson by surprise as well.

prawnsambo

baas baa wrote: »

It was great footwork from Conway. By the time Marx turned his head he was already 3/4 yards away. Obviously caught Henderson by surprise as well.

Love the way Sexton was lurking on the SA side of that pod. Just in case it was batted back that way.

errlloyd

Has anyone got a GIF of Kearney walking up to that high ball in the first half. I've never seen something quite as casual.

mr. pleasant

errlloyd wrote: »

Has anyone got a GIF of Kearney walking up to that high ball in the first half. I've never seen something quite as casual.

he actually does it twice in one minute

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=36m11s

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=37m

prawnsambo

mr. pleasant wrote: »

he actually does it twice in one minute

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=36m11s

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=37m

That's insane.

Burkie1203

mr. pleasant wrote: »

he actually does it twice in one minute

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=36m11s

https://youtu.be/y-yrnM8POZE?t=37m

He ran them both back very well too. Found his pack and got quick ball. We ended up with a lineout around the Boks 10m line after the 2nd one which led to the Conway try too. Henderson putting Etzebeth on his arse in that passage of play too

mfceiling

errlloyd wrote: »

Has anyone got a GIF of Kearney walking up to that high ball in the first half. I've never seen something quite as casual.

I posted at the time it was the coolest thing I've ever seen on a pitch. 99% of any other players are running towards that ball, jumping and taking that ball....not RK!!

mfceiling

mfceiling wrote: »

I posted at the time it was the coolest thing I've ever seen on a pitch. 99% of any other players are running towards that ball, jumping and taking that ball....not RK!!

I need to change my mindset.

My thinking on that first kick: "Jaysus, what a pathetic, aimless kick. Straight to Kearney and under no pressure."

Someone watching from another perspective: "Oh my God, RK is so cool! So casual under pressure! His positioning is amazing, he didn't even have to move for that kick."

:pac: