Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

Ush1

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it was trial by court.

In addition, people hold opinions about public court cases. But it’s not a trial.

And you mentioned things going over my head...

LLMMLL

Ush1 wrote: »

….and?

And I believe the victim.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I believe the victim.

What victim? Do you mean the complainant?

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

What victim? Do you mean the complainant?

No I mean the victim

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I mean the victim

The law disagrees with you and doesn't care about your emotions.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

The law disagrees with you and doesn't care about your emotions.

There’s no emotion. And I’ve said my beliefs have no impact on the legal domain from the start. I’m not sure who you’re arguing with because it sounds like you’re agreeing with me.

El_Duderino 09

Yeah_Right wrote: »

But what needs to change? If you're hooking up with someone and they try to do something you're not into, say it. It really is that simple.

How do you ‘say it’, Is one of the best things that’s being discussed. How to you signal consent? How do you signal the limits of consent? How to you signal withdrawal of consent?

Can you signal consent with body language and inference? Can you signal subtlety like the limits of consent with body language and inference?

Ush1

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I believe the victim.

Again, who cares? To what end?

A solicitor(a female no less) explained this to LON. I'm not sure what certain people are looking for here?

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I believe the victim.

Omackeral wrote: »

What victim? Do you mean the complainant?

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I mean the victim

Omackeral wrote: »

The law disagrees with you and doesn't care about your emotions.

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not sure who you’re arguing with because it sounds like you’re agreeing with me.

Is English not your first language?

PhuckHugh

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I mean the victim

Paddy Jackson and Stue Olding were the victims here... named, shamed, financially ruined and careers nearly destroyed.

Yeah_Right

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How do you ‘say it’, Is one of the best things that’s being discussed. How to you signal consent? How do you signal the limits of consent? How to you signal withdrawal of consent?

Can you signal consent with body language and inference? Can you signal subtlety like the limits of consent with body language and inference?

Well I've never had an issue understanding consent so why don't you tell me what is confusing you?

2smiggy

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it was trial by court.

In addition, people hold opinions about public court cases. But it’s not a trial.

but you said you were getting your evidence from twitter of all places !!

El_Duderino 09

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What needs to be discussed? Consent? What actually needs to be discussed? Seriously. I don't understand what the issue is. Don't force people to do things they don't want to do and if you don't want to do something then don't do it. If you did it but then regret it well tough ****.

You keep going on about this "discussion" that is taking place and needs to make place and that men need to be a part. You've called me clueless so help me out. What are we discussing? What is the issue?

Consent is a pretty big issue for paddy Jackson. It cost him his job and his ireland career. And I’ve no idea about the personal cost.

You’re one of the people I was referring to earlier who keeps suggesting consent s so simple that you don’t understand why it even needs to be discussed.

The nature of consent. Is much more subtle than you’re making out. It’s a big issue for men and women.

I asked earlier what would men like to see included in this revamped sex Ed course in schools. It’s difficult to get an answer to that question for some reason.

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So? Do you give in because of wheedling/whining and say ok? If they ignore you is that the end of your resistance? And if they are ignoring 'no' repeatedly then they don't need consent classes, they need a jail cell. If someone keeps trying it on with you do you eventually submit? Or do you stand your ground?

If only life were that simple. I have a friend who kept saying no. At the time they didn’t think they were being assaulted but described it as being like trying to get someone to stop tickling you. His hands would go somewhere, my friend would say no and squirm, and try and get the hands off, then the hands would be somewhere else. He ended up briefly getting his penis inside her before she got it together to be forceful and get him off.

LLMMLL

2smiggy wrote: »

but you said you were getting your evidence from twitter of all places !!

But I haven’t put him on trial. So my opinion has nothing to do with his trial, or his potential conviction at the time.

LLMMLL

Ush1 wrote: »

Again, who cares? To what end?

A solicitor(a female no less) explained this to LON. I'm not sure what certain people are looking for here?

I’m guessing you care as you keep asking me about it. If you didn’t keep asking then I wouldn’t keep replying......

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Is English not your first language?

I’m wondering the same about you.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno. I think some people are missing the point here. To take the Paddy Jackson trial, if all parties were fully educated on the nature of consent and seeked clarity, if Paddy and Stuart made sure of consent and the girl made sure that her lack of consent was made abundantly clear, that whole trial would have never happened. People will claim its unnatural and ruin the mood, but we have seemed to take to condoms fairly easily. They're an enormous buzz kill and we've adapted to them. El_dude has a point, Ireland and the world is evolving and this needs to happen. Perhaps we need outliers like LON spouting her nonsense to move the midpoint of opinion in Ireland. Divorce used to illegal in Ireland and people were forced to stay in abusive relationships. Ireland will slowly change its opinion of consent.

This is exactly one of the points I’m making. Paddy Jackson and co were found not guilty of rape but it’s clear that 5 people’s lives were turned upside down. I bet he takes consent a lot more seriously than lots of posters here do.

The discussion around consent is moving on. It was definitely affected by the recent trial. This issue was of importance to 4 men and 1 woman and still it’s difficult to get men to take an interest. It’s a proper modern men’s issue. But they’re leaving it to the active ones like LON to shape the discussion.

Ush1

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m guessing you care as you keep asking me about it. If you didn’t keep asking then I wouldn’t keep replying......

Ah here, you brought it up like it had some weight or meaning. I'm leaning heavily towards you trolling at this stage.

Yeah_Right

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Consent is a pretty big issue for paddy Jackson. It cost him his job and his ireland career. And I’ve no idea about the personal cost.

You’re one of the people I was referring to earlier who keeps suggesting consent s so simple that you don’t understand why it even needs to be discussed.

The nature of consent. Is much more subtle than you’re making out. It’s a big issue for men and women.

I asked earlier what would men like to see included in this revamped sex Ed course in schools. It’s difficult to get an answer to that question for some reason.

I've given you answers. Go back and read them. What is it that you don't understand when it comes to consent? Say yes or no. Its only subtle and an issue if people aren't clear about it or are allowed to claim regret equals lack of consent. Thats what got Paddy into trouble and thats what LON supports.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Is English not your first language?

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m wondering the same about you.

SICK COMEBACK!!!!!!!!111111

Yeah_Right

LLMMLL wrote: »

If only life were that simple. I have a friend who kept saying no. At the time they didn’t think they were being assaulted but described it as being like trying to get someone to stop tickling you. His hands would go somewhere, my friend would say no and squirm, and try and get the hands off, then the hands would be somewhere else. He ended up briefly getting his penis inside her before she got it together to be forceful and get him off.

So consent classes would have fixed that?

LLMMLL

Ush1 wrote: »

Ah here, you brought it up like it had some weight or meaning. I'm leaning heavily towards you trolling at this stage.

Actually it was brought up by someone else in relation to LON. But if nobody’s interested you can stop asking about it.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

SICK COMEBACK!!!!!!!!111111

Is it any worse than a 50 year prison guard copying memes from reddit made by a 16 year old?

Rory28

LLMMLL wrote: »

Is it any worse than a 50 year prison guard copying memes from reddit made by a 16 year old?

yes. yes it is

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So consent classes would have fixed that?

Impossible to know if that particular guy would have benefited. He didn’t seem to realise he’d done anything wrong. I think it’s intersting that he immediately stopped on hearing a forceful, violent no, but ignored multiple frustrated no’s. I think that’s definitely something that could be ingrained in guys in a consent class.

Ush1

LLMMLL wrote: »

Actually it was brought up by someone else in relation to LON. But if nobody’s interested you can stop asking about it.

.

LLMMLL wrote: »

No it doesn’t. Take the PJ case for instance. The victim claims she said no. LON, whether right or wrong about this case, believed her account. So from their point of view a woman said no and was ignored. I see no inference that women can’t say no.

LLMMLL

Rory28 wrote: »

yes. yes it is

Could your son make me a meme to back that up?

ChippingSodbury

LLMMLL wrote: »

I believed the victim in that case as the testimony of the men were demonstrably bags of lies with one defendant actually telling the wrong version of events that had been designed by another defendant.

I’m sure other people have their own reasons for why they believe either the victim or the defendants.

LLMMLL wrote: »

My belief is based on my examination of the evidence....

You're forgetting that every shred of evidence you heard regarding the trial is second hand from a journalist and filtered so that only what they considered pertinent points were reported. The trial would've been over in about two days if the only evidence presented was that which was reported in the media: so there's a hell of a lot of information missing before you start your analysis.

Ush1

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think that’s definitely something that could be ingrained in guys in a consent class.

Sure, could have it right after the "Don't dress like a slag" class for the ladies. Both are equally patronising/insulting.