Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

LLMMLL

I have to say that Camille Paglia quote was the biggest load of toss I’ve read in a while.

py2006

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's absolutely disgraceful. No consideration for women, hermaphrodites or those who identify as a hedgehog twice a week

Think you missed my point??

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have to say that Camille Paglia quote was the biggest load of toss I’ve read in a while.

Not a fan? You do surprise me :P

py2006

py2006 wrote: »

Think you missed my point??

Hmm. Read it again and turn up your sarcasm detector..... :pac:

I get what your saying and it's a delicious irony. Strange it didn't 'Trigger' her. Perhaps they should rename it 'the woke bae' theatre??

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have to say that Camille Paglia quote was the biggest load of toss I’ve read in a while.

Regardless of one's opinion on Ms Paglia's take, your set of claims about women of the past are unbelievably slanted towards this third wave feminist notion of the perpetual victimhood of women and women alone. May I respectfully suggest you need to read more actual history books, because at best your "unfair" list is one of half truths and outright fallacies and it's even more fallacious in the western world of today. Outside of sexual assault there isn't a single social issue where men better off and are better catered for and socially protected than women.

I would agree with her than a large chunk of men's work(and it would be majority male) is invisible to "feminists". Hell, it's not only them who have blinders on that score, most people men and women don't see that vast infrastructure that makes modern life in the west so easy for the majority of us. It's an out of sight, out of mind thing and a class thing too for many. There are a lot of women's jobs that are only partially visible too. The carers, the nurses the support staff etc, that are only visible if you have need of them.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Not a fan? You do surprise me :P

Never read her work, but that particular quote was awful. Her ideas around the unhappiness of career women seemed particularly dodgy.

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

Never read her work, but that particular quote was awful. Her ideas around the unhappiness of career women seemed particularly dodgy.

Actually another gender gap has come to light over the last few decades, the happiness gap. In the 1960's women reported higher levels of happiness compared to men, then there was a parity and now it's gone the other way. Women are less happy even with the gains in equality in that period.

As for that quote being awful, and rather than just saying that with no explanation, can you point out what inaccurate statements she made? I can see a couple, but which ones do you see?

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually another gender gap has come to light over the last few decades, the happiness gap. In the 1960's women reported higher levels of happiness compared to men, then there was a parity and now it's gone the other way. Women are less happy even with the gains in equality in that period.

As for that quote being awful, and rather than just saying that with no explanation, can you point out what inaccurate statements she made? I can see a couple, but which ones do you see?

Mainly the third fourth and fifth paragraphs.

Linking modern feminism to denigration of men causing men to behave immaturely and thus causing female unhappiness.

Her claims can’t exactly be refuted as she doesn’t really make empirical claims.

Again, presenting the women of certain nations as striking some sort of middle ground of being assertive while owning their sexuality. This is based on her “observation” and “seems” to be the case to her.

I lost interest after that.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually another gender gap has come to light over the last few decades, the happiness gap. In the 1960's women reported higher levels of happiness compared to men, then there was a parity and now it's gone the other way. Women are less happy even with the gains in equality in that period.

The answer is simple and obvious but saying it is a bit of a no-no.

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

Mainly the third fourth and fifth paragraphs.

Linking modern feminism to denigration of men causing men to behave immaturely and thus causing female unhappiness.

I would feel she's on somewhat firmer ground there. Though I would contend that adolescence has been extended out in years beyond where it once was, particularly in the educated middle class. Being somewhat or actually broke makes such an extension an indulgence. Though I would say it can affect both genders. Indeed take the subject of the thread herself. If one was to read her output and how she frames her life and emotions and politics one could easily come to the conclusion that she was around college age, rather than a woman in her mid 30's. She's a pretty good example of a certain gilded and protected middle class girl/woman. And she's unabashed in her description of it, which says much.

Her claims can’t exactly be refuted as she doesn’t really make empirical claims.

I would have though that would make them more easily refuted.

Again, presenting the women of certain nations as striking some sort of middle ground of being assertive while owning their sexuality. This is based on her “observation” and “seems” to be the case to her.

I'd agree there. I would say it's more about her viewing the world through her American cultural eyes. Women in most of the countries she mentions come from cultures that have more societal supports for people. It's a lot easier for women and men to feel more content when they know in the background that there is a social and financial safety net if things go wrong. America has little of that. Even paid maternity leave is variable and not so legally binding depending on states. Healthcare is good, if you can afford it and your insurance covers it. Note the huge number of Americans hooked on over the counter opioids. Much of that is down to them being cheaper than treatments that would stop the pain. It's a much more dog eat dog culture. Fine when you're the dog that's eating, but not so fine if you're not and the gap between the two can be a tight one. The wealth gap between the top and bottom is very wide and more, the gap between the top and middle is nearly as wide. We complain about dole heads and scroungers and homeless, but our society would IMHO be worse off for more people if we didn't have the supports in place that can on occasion give rise to those who would abuse it.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

I would have though that would make them more easily refuted.

Not really as it’s hard to refute someone’s experience which is what she’s basing her observations on.

For example my experience is that anti-men sentiment is far more prevalent in women who don’t particularly identify as feminists. For example the common stereotype that men are lazy, uninterested in childcare, only into sex etc.

Does that refute her? It’s just my experience. Is there any research that supports either of our experiences? Then I’d need research to show that female unhappiness is based on perceived Male immaturity. And research to show that perceived Male immaturity is a result of anti-Male sentiment among women.

That’s a lot of work to refute some wishy washy claims that I just don’t take all that seriously.

Yeah_Right

LLMMLL wrote: »

Sure. The double standards around men and women who sleep around would be one example.

Non sexual I would say attitudes to women’s capability in the sciences and gender stereotypes for children (though I believe that’s a negative for men as well as women).

I agree that there are double standards applied to men and women that sleep around throughout the world. And I think that's wrong. It is changing though in western society. Maybe a bit slower in Ireland due to the hangover of Catholicism.

Women's capabilities in science. Maybe 20 years ago but I don't think that's really true now. Gender stereotypes for children. Seriously? You're struggling aren't you? I would actually say both these examples are less of an issue in Ireland than they are in other countries.

MikeyTaylor

I preferred the last title.

MikeyTaylor

Will Laura Whitmore help her choose the toaster?

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Women's capabilities in science. Maybe 20 years ago but I don't think that's really true now. Gender stereotypes for children. Seriously? You're struggling aren't you? I would actually say both these examples are less of an issue in Ireland than they are in other countries.

No I’m not struggling. Do you work in science?

MikeyTaylor

GUYS CAN WE PLEASE PICK A TITLE AND STICK TO IT??

sydthebeat

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

GUYS CAN WE PLEASE PICK A TITLE AND STICK TO IT??

NOOOOOOOO........!!!!!

MikeyTaylor

sydthebeat wrote: »

NOOOOOOOO........!!!!!

Why NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT...............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

As for no women in power: there was Joan of Arc, Cleopatra, Cathrine the Great, there were queens of the Palmyrene Empire, Empresses in Eqypt and China. There was Queen Victoria and Elizabeth closer to home.

The part I find interesting is the idea that women throughout history, even in male dominated societies had no power to influence those around them. We've all heard the quotation "behind every great man, there's a great woman". It's almost as if feminists want to ignore the influence that mothers had over their sons, or wives with their husbands. The idea that, in the past, every man was empowered enough to resist the ideas (or nagging) of their spouses.

And when we look at the great composers, writers, etc many of them praise the input of their wives or female relations in their lives, and, sometimes, in connection with their actual work. And yet, women had no influence, power... and basically any responsibility for how the world developed. Except when it relates to something good. Then the woman is lauded for being connected with that 'great' man.

Awfully convenient, isn't it?

Yeah_Right

LLMMLL wrote: »

No I’m not struggling. Do you work in science?

Well you haven't come up with any areas that women are oppressed or discriminated against in Ireland so I think you are struggling.

Is IT considered a science? That's what I work in.

My ex is a forensic technician. She had no complaints. I'm friends with a couple of psychologists and another girl who is a biologist of some sort. Are those sciences? I've asked them before if they had issues with sexism because it was in the news in relation to the tech industry. They said if their work was good there was no issue.

Yes, it's anecdotal but it's more than anything you've offered. I'm sure you've got another deflection ready.

MikeyTaylor

Hopefully this toaster will help Louise break Britain :-)

Fr_Dougal

RabbleRouser2k

Wibbs wrote: »

I would feel she's on somewhat firmer ground there. Though I would contend that adolescence has been extended out in years beyond where it once was, particularly in the educated middle class. Being somewhat or actually broke makes such an extension an indulgence. Though I would say it can affect both genders. Indeed take the subject of the thread herself. If one was to read her output and how she frames her life and emotions and politics one could easily come to the conclusion that she was around college age, rather than a woman in her mid 30's. She's a pretty good example of a certain gilded and protected middle class girl/woman. And she's unabashed in her description of it, which says much.

I would have though that would make them more easily refuted.

I'd agree there. I would say it's more about her viewing the world through her American cultural eyes. Women in most of the countries she mentions come from cultures that have more societal supports for people. It's a lot easier for women and men to feel more content when they know in the background that there is a social and financial safety net if things go wrong. America has little of that. Even paid maternity leave is variable and not so legally binding depending on states. Healthcare is good, if you can afford it and your insurance covers it. Note the huge number of Americans hooked on over the counter opioids. Much of that is down to them being cheaper than treatments that would stop the pain. It's a much more dog eat dog culture. Fine when you're the dog that's eating, but not so fine if you're not and the gap between the two can be a tight one. The wealth gap between the top and bottom is very wide and more, the gap between the top and middle is nearly as wide. We complain about dole heads and scroungers and homeless, but our society would IMHO be worse off for more people if we didn't have the supports in place that can on occasion give rise to those who would abuse it.

I'm continually surprised by the ever omniscient immaturity of certain individuals.

LON was called out by the pupils in a secondary school that she thought was her target market. I think there is a greater sense of intelligence among people, but LON represents a certain immaturity that I've seen far too often among men and women much older than her.
It usually manifests itsself in something like either jealousy, or general bullying.

And attitudes that are just heinous. I knew one 'girl' who was in her 20s, and a single mom to a small boy. The amount of awfulness she said about men, while raising a boy...I mean, do any of them imagine how they'd feel if their son was called some of the same things they say?

py2006

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

LON was called out by the pupils in a secondary school that she thought was her target market.

I think I remember reading about that..... Prob here.

She basically went to a girls school and gave a 'boys are bad, girls are good' speech and the girls in fairness to them didn't feel it represented reality.

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Well you haven't come up with any areas that women are oppressed or discriminated against in Ireland so I think you are struggling.

Is IT considered a science? That's what I work in.

My ex is a forensic technician. She had no complaints. I'm friends with a couple of psychologists and another girl who is a biologist of some sort. Are those sciences? I've asked them before if they had issues with sexism because it was in the news in relation to the tech industry. They said if their work was good there was no issue.

Yes, it's anecdotal but it's more than anything you've offered. I'm sure you've got another deflection ready.

You yourself acknowledged that women face oppression in terms of sexual violence but then wouldn’t accept it as an answer to the oppression women face in Ireland.

You pretended that was because it had already been discussed but now clearly you just didn’t want me to raise it so you could claim I struggle to come up with areas where women face oppression.

So here’s my list. You don’t have to agree (though it seems you do about sexual violence):

Sexual violence
General sexual “politics”
Until very recently (a few weeks) abortion rights
Science (certainly in my area because I hear it all the time) and wouldn’t be surprised if the attitudes I hear extend to other workplaces
Gender roles in children

There may be more but that’s my list.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Sexual violence

Agreed.

General sexual “politics”

How? Women have the same success rate as men when they stand for election. Due to quotas they're actually over-represented in the parties compared to standing as independents where there are no barriers other than a 500 quid deposit and getting 30 signatures.

Until very recently (a few weeks) abortion rights

Well leaving aside the discrimination aspect (kinda hard to say men had more rights on abortion) it's pretty much done now.

Science (certainly in my area because I hear it all the time) and wouldn’t be surprised if the attitudes I hear extend to other workplaces

What attitudes? I work in IT which is supposed to be even worse and everyone in this company has been given a fair crack. In larger companies in Ireland the balance seems skewed toward women if anything given the balance in colleges.

Gender roles in children

Meaning childcare? People need to pick their partners sensibly, both ways. Or do you mean how having a kid means a form of financial security for women and the opposite for men?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He was a tool but did he intend to rape anyone is probably the more important question.

Probably not... but the world is filled with the foolish, the oblvious and those who simply don't care. This is a good way to trim the bushes and weed out the muppets.

Ha! A fool committing a rape is a good way to 'trim the bushes' compared to simply haveing open and honest discussions about the nuances of consent.

You could catch the fool by making sure they're educated and less foolish after the discussion. It shows pretty astounding disregard for men and women to say that "This is a good way to trim the bushes and weed out the muppets".

That's actually one of the most incredible things even ever seen posted on boards. Tell me you didn't mean it. It was a typo, right? You don't actually think a guy committing rape and being found guilty and a woman being raped is "a good way to trim the bushes and weed out the muppets." Say it ain't so.

Klaz, please do clarify what you mean here. It looks like you’re saying he probably didn’t mean to rape anyone. But he’s foolish or oblivious, and a man committing a rape, and a woman being rape is "a good way to trim the bushes and weed out the muppets."

sydthebeat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed.


How? Women have the same success rate as men when they stand for election. Due to quotas they're actually over-represented in the parties compared to standing as independents where there are no barriers other than a 500 quid deposit and getting 30 signatures.


Well leaving aside the discrimination aspect (kinda hard to say men had more rights on abortion) it's pretty much done now.


What attitudes? I work in IT which is supposed to be even worse and everyone in this company has been given a fair crack. In larger companies in Ireland the balance seems skewed toward women if anything given the balance in colleges.


Meaning childcare? People need to pick their partners sensibly, both ways. Or do you mean how having a kid means a form of financial security for women and the opposite for men?

I think LLONMLLL means things a lot more vague and ethereal than you think she's saying buttonftw.

At the end of the day Ireland is a great country when it comes to general equality between men and women.

Any inequality that exists is borne by the fact that men and women are not the same.
This is the underlying truth that galls so many of these third wave feminists. we're different, have different strengths and weaknesses. Society is lessened by forcing faux equality into areas where these differences should be extolled.

Kimbot

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

GUYS CAN WE PLEASE PICK A TITLE AND STICK TO IT??

MOD NO :pac:

gmisk

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Im a man....that toaster would please me! it is slick!!!!