Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

Yeah_Right

LLMMLL wrote: »

You yourself acknowledged that women face oppression in terms of sexual violence but then wouldn’t accept it as an answer to the oppression women face in Ireland.

You pretended that was because it had already been discussed but now clearly you just didn’t want me to raise it so you could claim I struggle to come up with areas where women face oppression.

So here’s my list. You don’t have to agree (though it seems you do about sexual violence):

Sexual violence
General sexual “politics”
Until very recently (a few weeks) abortion rights
Science (certainly in my area because I hear it all the time) and wouldn’t be surprised if the attitudes I hear extend to other workplaces
Gender roles in children

There may be more but that’s my list.

I was asking for some examples other than sexual violence because I think everyone agrees that sexual violence is horrible. I don't believe any right minded person supports rape or sexual assault. I was genuinely curious if there are other forms oppression and discrimination here in Ireland.

What is general sexual "politics"? I don't know what that is. Educate me.

Science. Does anyone have numbers of how many women graduate with science degrees vs how many are employed in science related fields? Is there a huge discrepancy? I know that a few of the big US tech firms have diversity groups and women's groups set up in the company to ensure that there is no discrimination in the workplace. The interesting thing is in Ireland, the female empowerment groups are often considered a waste of time. Why? Because there is no issue with gender discrimination in these companies in Ireland. In some cases they quietly and unofficially say they need more men in their upper management. In some of the other countries these companies operate in, they do need these groups as there are issues with the gender balance.

Gender roles for children. Are talking about people buying toy dolls for girls and toy trucks for boys?

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I was asking for some examples other than sexual violence because I think everyone agrees that sexual violence is horrible. I don't believe any right minded person supports rape or sexual assault. I was genuinely curious if there are other forms oppression and discrimination here in Ireland.

I'm still waiting to see the answer to the original question. i.e. legal discrimination against women in Ireland.

What is general sexual "politics"? I don't know what that is. Educate me.

I assume she means gender politics rather than sexual. Where politics is still mostly a mans club, and sexual harassment is 'common' in the workplace. However, there's never any articles of women suing politicians about sexual harassment like there is in other fields, so I wonder just how common it actually is. It's not as if women don't have a defense against it.

The funny thing about politics is that voters have their own bias. My mother won't vote for most female politicians because she has no respect for them. She voted for Mary O'Rourke because she actually fought and campaigned to be there, but the newer politicians don't have any attraction for her.

Feminists don't want to admit that women make up a decent percentage of the voting block, and don't vote for women. They typically vote for men. The answer, supposedly, is for political parties to present more women to the population, but if there's no demand, why should they?

Science. Does anyone have numbers of how many women graduate with science degrees vs how many are employed in science related fields?

As for science, I suspect the complaints of under-representation are based on the past rather than the current situation. If anything, I'd suggest we have an under-representation of men in "soft" sciences (psychology), and an under-representation of women in some "hard" sciences. The reason? Interest. Women just aren't interested in the "hard" sciences...

I recently went to a conference about NLP/Pscychology and its use in the modern world. All except one of the guest lecturers were female. The majority of the audience were female, and the content was geared more towards female lives/issues than a more balanced view.

I find that the gender imbalance in fields is being highly selective. The only thing limiting a balance is choice and interest. There are no legal barriers, and even the social barriers are breaking down very quickly. Even though Men can become nurses, the numbers of male nurses compared to female is tiny... because most men aren't terribly interested in such a job.

Likely feminists see the numbers of women in a particular job and think them too low compared to men. They don't want to consider that women just aren't interested in the desired numbers.

El_Duderino 09

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What is general sexual "politics"? I don't know what that is. Educate me.

I’m not speaking for LLMMLL but I’d use an analogous example of sexual orientation. My FIL was brought up in a large working class area in greater Manchester. He talked about gay bashing being a pass-time. He grew up in a culture that didn’t equivocate about gays. They were lesser than heterosexuals, end of discussion.

It took a long time for him to change his views and he still doesn’t have a positive view of gay people. He has gone to be a ‘live and let live’ kinda guy in his older age and would certainly regret the gay bashing.

It took a lot of discussion to convince him to vote for gay marriage.

He acknowledges that he was wrong about gays but it doesn’t mean he thinks about them the same as heterosexuals. So how would he react to a gay fella looking for a manual labour job? Not positively is the answer.

To use another analogy of race, I listened to a podcast with Akala recently. He was a bright child and his teacher noticed he was at a different ability to the rest of his class, so she put him in the remedial class.

He talked about it and said it wasn’t just malicious racism at play because the teacher was born and raised in the 1950s. At that time, white supremacy was a scientific fact. So if a black child was different it was obviously because he was slower than the white children. It probably didn’t even occur to her that he was more intelligent than the average child because that was unthinkable.

Likewise lots of people in positions of authority were brought up in a time when the proper order was for the woman to work in the home. How could they expect a woman to deal with complicated things that they themselves, a man, might struggle with?

Like my FIL or Akala’s teacher, there are inherent prejudice which take time to work their way out through the system.

In my FIL’s case, if he had a gay grandchild he would probably shed his prejudices because it would be an unavoidable challenge to them and he would want to be a great grandad.

The idea that these prejudices don’t exist in all walks of life is ridiculous. They’re everywhere. Lots of people still think the ‘thick Paddy’ stereotype is true too. But I’ll let the other 2 examples stand.

Yeah_Right

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m not speaking for LLMMLL but I’d use an analogous example of sexual orientation. My FIL was brought up in a large working class area in greater Manchester. He talked about gay bashing being a pass-time. He grew up in a culture that didn’t equivocate about gays. They were lesser than heterosexuals, end of discussion.

It took a long time for him to change his views and he still doesn’t have a positive view of gay people. He has gone to be a ‘live and let live’ kinda guy in his older age and would certainly regret the gay bashing.

It took a lot of discussion to convince him to vote for gay marriage.

He acknowledges that he was wrong about gays but it doesn’t mean he thinks about them the same as heterosexuals. So how would he react to a gay fella looking for a manual labour job? Not positively is the answer.

To use another analogy of race, I listened to a podcast with Akala recently. He was a bright child and his teacher noticed he was at a different ability to the rest of his class, so she put him in the remedial class.

He talked about it and said it wasn’t just malicious racism at play because the teacher was born and raised in the 1950s. At that time, white supremacy was a scientific fact. So if a black child was different it was obviously because he was slower than the white children. It probably didn’t even occur to her that he was more intelligent than the average child because that was unthinkable.

Likewise lots of people in positions of authority were brought up in a time when the proper order was for the woman to work in the home. How could they expect a woman to deal with complicated things that they themselves, a man, might struggle with?

Like my FIL or Akala’s teacher, there are inherent prejudice which take time to work their way out through the system.

In my FIL’s case, if he had a gay grandchild he would probably shed his prejudices because it would be an unavoidable challenge to them and he would want to be a great grandad.

The idea that these prejudices don’t exist in all walks of life is ridiculous. They’re everywhere. Lots of people still think the ‘thick Paddy’ stereotype is true too. But I’ll let the other 2 examples stand.

Interesting that you went with examples using race and sexual orientation rather than gender.

I agree that in the past that prejudices against people due to race, ethnicity, class, sexual orientation and gender were the norm. I think everyone knows that. There's 100s of books, movies and TV shows that tell the story of people who helped break down these barriers. They are not considered the norm any more. Attitudes have changed and for the better. Just look at your FIL.

Its not perfect and we as a society can still get better but trying to improve the lot of one group by tearing down another is not the way to do it. And that is what LON and her kind are doing. They want revenge for the how women were treated in previous generations. And they want to make a load money while getting that vengeance.

Omackeral

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm still waiting to see the answer to the original question. i.e. legal discrimination against women in Ireland.

That was weaseled out of after umpteen attempts of extracting an answer i.e. there's none.

MikeyTaylor

Question: what started the constant changing of the title?

MikeyTaylor

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Question: what started the constant changing of the title?

Solar Flares.

MikeyTaylor

Deleted User wrote: »

Solar Flares.

What are solar flares? Is it a user?

Boom_Bap

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Question: what started the constant changing of the title?

wasn't me

MikeyTaylor

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

What are solar flares? Is it a user?

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/solar-flare-sun-touches-our-psyche/

El_Duderino 09

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Interesting that you went with examples using race and sexual orientation rather than gender.

I agree that in the past that prejudices against people due to race, ethnicity, class, sexual orientation and gender were the norm. I think everyone knows that. There's 100s of books, movies and TV shows that tell the story of people who helped break down these barriers. They are not considered the norm any more. Attitudes have changed and for the better. Just look at your FIL.

Its not perfect and we as a society can still get better but trying to improve the lot of one group by tearing down another is not the way to do it. And that is what LON and her kind are doing. They want revenge for the how women were treated in previous generations. And they want to make a load money while getting that vengeance.

Yes. I used analogous situations to illustrate the point and it was well received going by your response.

My FIL is an example of someone who knows on an intellectual level that prejudice against gays is wrong, but that doesn’t stop him being prejudice against gays on a visceral level. I give him full credit because he is doing his best to not act on beliefs that he learned at the same time he learned basic truths like washing your teeth is healthy, chips taste great, men like big boobs and gays are deviants. I still doubt he’d consider s gay fella as capable of manual labour because of the old mincing gay stereotypes.

He’s doing his best and he still harbours negative prejudice. That kind of thing is in all walks of life. Think catholics/Protestants in NI, think prejudice against travellers in Ireland -I’m desperately prejudice against travellers. I do my best to overcome it but...

Its partly because of ‘PC gone mad’ that he can’t openly discriminate against gay people.

MikeyTaylor

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Question: what started the constant changing of the title?

Some mod thinks they're hilarious. Its annoying. I keep thinking I'm subscribed to a new thread.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Some mod thinks they're hilarious. Its annoying. I keep thinking I'm subscribed to a new thread.

Hardly. The thread changes aren't that drastic. Louise O'Neill or LON is always in the title. Can't really see the difficulty here.

MikeyTaylor

Deleted User wrote: »

Some mod thinks they're hilarious. Its annoying. I keep thinking I'm subscribed to a new thread.

I agree.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Hardly. The thread changes aren't that drastic. Louise O'Neill or LON is always in the title. Can't really see the difficulty here.

Check your reading-comprehension privilege. Some of us are stuck at primary school level.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Check your reading-comprehension privilege. Some of us are stuck at primary school level.

huh? That makes no sense to me.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

huh? That makes no sense to me.

Maybe you are on my level



http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe you are on my level



http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege

Probably pretty similar (125).

Sky King

I wonder would LON like one of those Battlestar Gallactica themed toasters that burn FRAK OFF! Into your bread, with a cylon logo on the other side.

I wonder if LON would like Battlestar Gallactica? The president of the colonies is a stong woman as is the main fighter pilot Starbuck and lots of key characters in the series so I guess she would find that empowering.

But I think the systematic oppression of the cylons and the constant use of the slur 'toaster' to describe them would be demeaning and exclusionist, and classist and speciesest and unfair discrimination against cybernetic organisms and robots.

The fact that it is well written drama should appeal to her though.

https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/battlestar-galactica-led-toaster.jpg

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

You yourself acknowledged that women face oppression in terms of sexual violence but then wouldn’t accept it as an answer to the oppression women face in Ireland.

Sexual violence in western society is not a form of oppression.

Sexual violence can be used to oppress, when used as a tool of war etc, but there is no power or authority using sexual violence to control the female population. Incidents of sexual violence in Ireland are individual incidents and there are laws in place to prosecute anyone that is found guilty of such crimes.

I work in a residential care facility which often is used as a stopgap for seriously injured young men, much of which has resulted from a violent attack. For example, most recently a young lad was hit with a bottle and had a stroke a few days later in the ICU and is now trying to get placed in a rehab facility. You wouldn't believe how common such injuries are yet we rarely hear about them.

Could we class these assaults as a form of oppression? Are strong men oppressing weak men? Of course not but that's the logic behind categorizing sexual assaults in Ireland as a form of oppression. Also, if it was oppression whenever a man used sexual violence against a woman, then what of men attacking other men?

A look at the latest stats from the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre (DRCC) regarding male rape and sexual abuse in Ireland.

The recently released Dublin Rape Crisis Centre’s Annual Report for 2012 laid out the facts of rape and sexual abuse in Ireland. The figures are astonishing and disturbing.

Over 9,000 genuine contacts were made with the National 24-Hour Helpline in 2012, over 25 a day, and almost half of those were making their first ever contact with the service.

Men made up over 17 per cent of those who contacted the Helpline in 2012, highlighting just how big sexual abuse and rape issues are for Irish men.

According to research undertaken over a decade ago on behalf of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, over a quarter of Irish men (28%) reported some form of sexual abuse or assault in their lifetime (SAVI Report 2002). Rape was experienced by 3% of Irish men and one in 10 Irish men have experienced sexual assault in adulthood.

2009 research shows that only one per cent of men report rape or sexual assault to the Gardai, emphasising the culture of silence that exists around the subject for Irish males ("Different Systems - Similar Outcomes" EU DAPHNE II Research 2009).

The same research showed that nearly half of the male victims of rape or sexual assault never told anyone, but the volume of calls to the National 24-Hour Helpline from men suggests that it may be finally changing and men are becoming more willing to speak up.

The reasons for men’s reluctance to speak up and report their experiences are similar to women’s (shame, fear of not being believed, lack of faith in the criminal justice system and fear of ridicule) but women’s rates of reporting to the Gardai, while still too low, are way ahead of men’s.

For us to categorize sexual violence on women as a form of oppression, then that would mean we would have to believe that the motives behind male rape are much different. That a man is raped or sexually assaulted for vastly different reasons than a woman is and that to me is preposterous. There might some subtle differences but not so different that it could justify the claim that when women are sexually assaulted it is for oppressive purposes. Even just looking at the numbers of child sexual abuse and the genders involved there, it is clear that oppression of females (in western society at least) is not remotely a factor worthy of serious consideration.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

That was weaseled out of after umpteen attempts of extracting an answer i.e. there's none.

Still waiting for an answer from you omackeral. Or do you have to run back to work again? Conveniently your break seems to end when you’re asked to answer a direct question.

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I was asking for some examples other than sexual violence because I think everyone agrees that sexual violence is horrible. I don't believe any right minded person supports rape or sexual assault. I was genuinely curious if there are other forms oppression and discrimination here in Ireland.

What is general sexual "politics"? I don't know what that is. Educate me.

Science. Does anyone have numbers of how many women graduate with science degrees vs how many are employed in science related fields? Is there a huge discrepancy? I know that a few of the big US tech firms have diversity groups and women's groups set up in the company to ensure that there is no discrimination in the workplace. The interesting thing is in Ireland, the female empowerment groups are often considered a waste of time. Why? Because there is no issue with gender discrimination in these companies in Ireland. In some cases they quietly and unofficially say they need more men in their upper management. In some of the other countries these companies operate in, they do need these groups as there are issues with the gender balance.

Gender roles for children. Are talking about people buying toy dolls for girls and toy trucks for boys?

Well it’s a bit like saying “can you point out any areas where black people are discriminated against but you can’t mention police shootings”, then decide that the other person is struggling because you’ve forbidden them from naming the main one.

You’re free to disagree with my list, but the idea that I’m struggling to come up with a list just because you disagree with my examples and in your head have forbidden me from mentioning the main one is a very silly and transparent tactic.

General sexual politics is attitudes to women’s sexuality. There are still major double standards when it comes to women having sex.

In terms of science I’m talking about negative attitudes of male scientists towards the work of female scientists, which I hear constantly.

In terms of gender roles I think it goes a lot for there than simply different toys. Attitudes towards play, and attitudes towards physical appearances differ for Male and female children in my experience.

LLMMLL

Here are my questions for you again Omackeral:


Do you believe legal equality means full equality?

Once a group reaches legal equality does that mean there is nothing left to campaign on?

You’ve boasted about how you directly engage and how I avoid direct questions. So are you going to answer these questions or just reply with another question? Or is your break over?

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

Still waiting for an answer from you omackeral. Or do you have to run back to work again? Conveniently your break seems to end when you’re asked to answer a direct question.

Convenient that my break ends at the exact same time every single day isn't it?! Yeah, I'd say that's quite convenient. Allows things to work on a routine basis. Good insight!

As for your question. I honestly struggled to comprehend it. You asked if ''thing should still be campaigned for even if every legal basis if covered''. More or less that's the question isn't it? Not word for word but the jist anyway. I didn't avoid your question, I merely asked you to quantify it a bit more but you started accusing me of not answering it. I'll try again. If minority groups/genders/races are all on an even keel from a legal POV, what would a group be campaigning for? That's what I struggle to understand about your question. For example, people were unhappy that gay people couldn't get married. Groups campaigned for Same Sex Marriage. People were unhappy about the 8th Amendment, people campaigned to have it repealed. All I'm asking is what sexist policies/laws need changing. That's it. Just a simple qualifier to your question was all I looked for. Nice and level headed. No need for 'oh convenient' type snarky remarks. A simple, simple message back would be great if you're up to it.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

General sexual politics is attitudes to women’s sexuality. There are still major double standards when it comes to women having sex.

Specifics? (I assume these are behaviors that aren't looked down upon for both genders)

In terms of science I’m talking about negative attitudes of male scientists towards the work of female scientists, which I hear constantly.

Where? I can recall one article in the UK where an older scientist/researcher made a comment about female staff.

In terms of gender roles I think it goes a lot for there than simply different toys. Attitudes towards play, and attitudes towards physical appearances differ for Male and female children in my experience.

Um... Mothers still typically spend more time with their children than fathers... also there is a massive difference in the numbers of female teachers vs male teachers especially in classes for young children. So... who is doing the reinforcement of these roles?

Omackeral

I've replied. I'm off today. Try to actually have a discussion without this crap though.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Or is your break over?

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Convenient that my break ends at the exact same time every single day isn't it?! Yeah, I'd say that's quite convenient. Allows things to work on a routine basis. Good insight!

As for your question. I honestly struggled to comprehend it. You asked if ''thing should still be campaigned for even if every legal basis if covered''. More or less that's the question isn't it? Not word for word but the jist anyway. I didn't avoid your question, I merely asked you to quantify it a bit more but you started accusing me of not answering it. I'll try again. If minority groups/genders/races are all on an even keel from a legal POV, what would a group be campaigning for? That's what I struggle to understand about your question. For example, people were unhappy that gay people couldn't get married. Groups campaigned for Same Sex Marriage. People were unhappy about the 8th Amendment, people campaigned to have it repealed. All I'm asking is what sexist policies/laws need changing. That's it. Just a simple qualifier to your question was all I looked for. Nice and level headed. No need for 'oh convenient' type snarky remarks. A simple, simple message back would be great if you're up to it.

Ok so you’re saying if I qualify it you will provide a direct answer?

Examples in the gay sphere would be campaigns against bullying in school. Gay people have legal equality here but are campaigning on a social issue.

Examples in relation to black people would be campaigns highlighting police shootings. Black peoples have legal equality in the US but still campaign on social issues.

So here are some questions. Can you answer them directly?

Do you think black people and or gay people have nothing left to campaign for given they have legal equality?

If your answer is that they have nothing left to campaign for, would you be critical of the above mentioned campaigns?

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you believe legal equality means full equality?

By definition, yes. Protection is there under the law. That's where I'm struggling to get your point. Rotten attitudes in people exist of course but that's people being arseholes. Report them if you're being discriminated under one of the 9 grounds.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Once a group reaches legal equality does that mean there is nothing left to campaign on?

Like it's such an open ended question. Can you give an example of a group that might need to campaign for something? That's not me ducking your question, it's me not really getting what you're getting at. Do you mean things like campaigning for more women in politics or something like that?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Specifics? (I assume these are behaviors that aren't looked down upon for both genders)

Sleeping around. Oh dear. I have a feeling you’re going to claim that men who sleep around are viewed just as negatively as women are.....

Where? I can recall one article in the UK where an older scientist/researcher made a comment about female staff.

I encounter it all the time. Most recently where a group of Male scientists I know dismissed the work of a female scientist, apparently she was only picked to be a PhD student because of her looks and any worth in her work must have come directly from her supervisor.

Um... Mothers still typically spend more time with their children than fathers... also there is a massive difference in the numbers of female teachers vs male teachers especially in classes for young children. So... who is doing the reinforcement of these roles?

You’re confusing the idea that women face societal oppression/discrimination/issues with man blaming. This reinforcement comes from various sources. I never mentioned parents or fathers in particular.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

So here are some questions. Can you answer them directly?

Do you think black people and or gay people have nothing left to campaign for given they have legal equality?

If your answer is that they have nothing left to campaign for, would you be critical of the above mentioned campaigns?

I think gay kids being bullied in school is wrong. I think fat kids in school being bullied is wrong. I think kids being bullied for being black is wrong. Or Asian. Or English, French, Irish. I think children with glasses being bullied is wrong. I think kids with different religions being bullied is wrong. I think kids with no father being bullied is wrong. I think kids with speech impediments being bullied is wrong. I think kids with physical disabilities being bullied is wrong.

Basically, anybody that is different is possibly going to be a target. I don't see it as gay rights thing. I see it as a bullying problem. What do you there? Bring in anti-bullying campaigns, investigate where parents are going wrong, things like that.