Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Bring in anti-bullying campaigns

Again not answering the questions. You’ve just said what you think should be done.

I asked do you think black/gay people have nothing left to campaign for?

I actually personally know the people responsible for anti gay bullying campaigns in schools. They’re there because the campaigned for it. They tweeted about it. They contacted schools, dept of education etc. It wasn’t non-specifically-gay groups that were behind these measures.

So again, can you answer directly:

Do you think black people and or gay people have nothing left to campaign for given they have legal equality?

If your answer is that they have nothing left to campaign for, would you be critical of the above mentioned campaigns?

And no, saying some people are assholes and there should be anti bullying campaigns is not an answer to the above questions.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Sleeping around. Oh dear. I have a feeling you’re going to claim that men who sleep around are viewed just as negatively as women are.....

Um, I'd suggest you're living in the past on this one. Casual dating has been common for well over a decade, and sex is assumed to be happening. However, announcing to everyone that you're sleeping around is likely to get mixed reactions from both genders.... And that's the rub, isn't it? Many of the negative reactions women get about their behavior comes from other women...

Funnily enough though a woman who is sleeping around like crazy does tend to be called a slut, and it's rather accurate. Men are called sluts too. It's the type of behavior and how it's managed that's important. No double standard there.

I encounter it all the time. Most recently where a group of Male scientists I know dismissed the work of a female scientist, apparently she was only picked to be a PhD student because of her looks and any worth in her work must have come directly from her supervisor.

Ok. I have no involvement in the science community. Any chance they were correct?

You’re confusing the idea that women face societal oppression/discrimination/issues with man blaming. This reinforcement comes from various sources. I never mentioned parents or fathers in particular.

Nope you didn't. I did. In a post (and thread), that was mainly orientated around these issues, it stood to reason you were making the link. Fair enough. Although, i still think your issue is mostly reinforced by women.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

Again not answering the questions.

I answered to the example you gave me. What more do you want?

LLMMLL wrote: »

I asked do you think black/gay people have nothing left to campaign for?

In this country? Not really anything I can think of.

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you think black people and or gay people have nothing left to campaign for given they have legal equality?

Already answered directly above.

LLMMLL wrote: »

If your answer is that they have nothing left to campaign for, would you be critical of the above mentioned campaigns?

You mentioned an anti-bully campaign. Exactly what I gave as a solution myself. Why would I be critical of that at all?

LLMMLL wrote: »

And no, saying some people are assholes and there should be anti bullying campaigns is not an answer to the above questions.

It is an answer, just not an answer you want seemingly.

Omackeral

And btw, most people I know would absolutely slaughter any jackass bullying someone simply because they are gay. I'd lift them out of it myself definitely.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Again not answering the questions. You’ve just said what you think should be done.

I asked do you think black/gay people have nothing left to campaign for?

I actually personally know the people responsible for anti gay bullying campaigns in schools. They’re there because the campaigned for it. They tweeted about it. They contacted schools, dept of education etc. It wasn’t non-specifically-gay groups that were behind these measures.

So again, can you answer directly:

Do you think black people and or gay people have nothing left to campaign for given they have legal equality?

If your answer is that they have nothing left to campaign for, would you be critical of the above mentioned campaigns?

And no, saying some people are assholes and there should be anti bullying campaigns is not an answer to the above questions.

But what do these campaigns expect to achieve? Ok. The parents and teachers become aware of bullying (in general)... but then they would be anyway. The teachers have to train in such things, and many schools have brought in specialised teachers just for these areas. The kids? Um... Every kid knows about bullying from one end or another... They know the ins and outs of bullying more than anyone else... because it's personal.

I was bullied extensively because I have a shaking disorder, and my parents were teachers in my school. There is nothing an outsider could have done to change that. The kids who did it were ****s. They're still ****s now as adults.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

I answered to the example you gave me. What more do you want?



In this country? Not really anything I can think of.

I didn’t say in this country. What about black people in the US? You answered on example but skipped over the other (where it was clear I was not talking about this country) , police shootings in the US

You mentioned an anti-bully campaign. Exactly what I gave as a solution myself. Why would I be critical of that at all?

It is an answer, just not an answer you want seemingly.

These bullying campaigns were brought in by gay people campaigning for them to be introduced. The dept of education didn’t spontaneously decide to approve them.

But let’s get back to the specific example which you ignored:

Do black people in the US have anything left to campaign about? Police attitudes would be a main example but feel free to consider other issues.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But what do these campaigns expect to achieve? Ok. The parents and teachers become aware of bullying (in general)... but then they would be anyway. The teachers have to train in such things, and many schools have brought in specialised teachers just for these areas. The kids? Um... Every kid knows about bullying from one end or another... They know the ins and outs of bullying more than anyone else... because it's personal.

I was bullied extensively because I have a shaking disorder, and my parents were teachers in my school. There is nothing an outsider could have done to change that. The kids who did it were ****s. They're still ****s now as adults.

I’m not concerned with whether anti bullying campaigns are productive or not.

I’m simply illustrating Omackeral extreme question dodging.

Fr_Dougal

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I love that retro toaster, they don't design things like they used to. It's the best thing in the entire thread.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

But let’s get back to the specific example which you ignored:

Do black people in the US have anything left to campaign about? Police attitudes would be a main example but feel free to consider other issues.

Are you actually for real? You refused to my question when I relevantly asked which laws discriminate in this country and against which groups. You ignored, deflected and ducked it. Then you decided you'd label the question as irrelevant.

But then you come with this?.

In a thread discussing which toaster Louise O Neill should be hunting for, this is wildly off topic! I suspect she likes her toast medium brown though.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Agreed Candie.

I've always loved retro electric appliances from the 40s and 50s.

You can still buy functional restored items from this era online.

retro:electro

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I've always loved retro electric.

Naww thanks x

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Um, I'd suggest you're living in the past on this one. Casual dating has been common for well over a decade, and sex is assumed to be happening. However, announcing to everyone that you're sleeping around is likely to get mixed reactions from both genders.... And that's the rub, isn't it? Many of the negative reactions women get about their behavior comes from other women...

I think you’re wrong here. Yes women do shame other women for sleeping around but men have a far worse attitude towards it. And it doesn’t have to be announced. I could give a recent example where a girl I know who has had maybe 5 sexual partners 2 of them long term in ten years turned up at a guy she was dating a house one night drunk and horny. He told everyone about it and her male friends took her aside saying she was being discussed in the gaa lockerroom as easy and had she no self respect etc. Eve though they’re happy to sleep around themselves.

So I’m afraid this one doesn’t come under your personal responsibility remit. She didn’t announce it to everyone. That was done for her.

Funnily enough though a woman who is sleeping around like crazy does tend to be called a slut, and it's rather accurate. Men are called sluts too. It's the type of behavior and how it's managed that's important. No double standard there.

Not gonna even argue this point. If you think men who sleep around get the exact same attitudes and treatment as women who sleep around.......

I’ll just let everyone reading that come to their own conclusion based on personal experience.

Ok. I have no involvement in the science community. Any chance they were correct?

Considering it was before her presentation..... probably not.

Another example would be of the two most successful PhD students known among my peer group. The male one was never really commented on. The odd bit of jealousy that he was doing so well. The female was torn apart. So many negative comments about her work ethic, and contradictorily the sexual acts she must have performed to get accepted to the journals.

DEFTLEFTHAND

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Agreed Candie.

I've always loved retro electric appliances from the 40s and 50s.

You can still buy functional restored items from this era online.

The clothes as well, both men's and womens.

I've a retro style kitchen and have bought quite a few vintage things online for it. Everything today looks so samey in comparison. I really do want that toaster.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Are you actually for real? You refused to my question when I relevantly asked which laws discriminate in this country and against which groups. You ignored, deflected and ducked it. Then you decided you'd label the question as irrelevant.

But then you come with this?.

In a thread discussing which toaster Louise O Neill should be hunting for, this is wildly off topic! I suspect she likes her toast medium brown though.

My question is relevant to whether legal equality means full equality.

Are you going to dodge again?


Do black people in the US have anything left to campaign about? Police attitudes would be a main example but feel free to consider other issues.

DickSwiveller

LLMMLL wrote: »

My question is relevant to whether legal equality means full equality.

Are you going to dodge again?


Do black people in the US have anything left to campaign about? Police attitudes would be a main example but feel free to consider other issues.

No, they don't.

Kimbot

I honestly think LON should get this: https://www.nisbets.ie/dualit-conveyor-turbo-toaster/j416?vatToggle=incvat&cm_mmc=PLA-_-811305828-_-44429883080-_-J416&gclid=1%3Fcm_mmca1%3Dd70d512c-8029-4cce-acb5-7ec5712c4712&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgqqH3Kzi2wIV6J3tCh2C2w6QEAQYASABEgI8ovD_BwE

LLMMLL

DickSwiveller wrote: »

No, they don't.

Now that’s a direct answer. I actually respect that.

Let’s see will Omackeral do the same......

Boom_Bap

Kimbot wrote: »

I honestly think LON should get this: https://www.nisbets.ie/dualit-conveyor-turbo-toaster/j416?vatToggle=incvat&cm_mmc=PLA-_-811305828-_-44429883080-_-J416&gclid=1%3Fcm_mmca1%3Dd70d512c-8029-4cce-acb5-7ec5712c4712&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgqqH3Kzi2wIV6J3tCh2C2w6QEAQYASABEgI8ovD_BwE

That's a solid piece of kit. Does it legally provide equal toasting to black people in the US, women and gays?

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m not concerned with whether anti bullying campaigns are productive or not.

I’m simply illustrating Omackeral extreme question dodging.

Here, I've answered all your questions that are pertinent to women in this country being discriminated against. We're not here to discuss the basket case that is US politics. You wanna keep things ''relevant'' when it suits you but are happy to shift the goal posts when your narrative isn't met. FWIW, black people and groups in the States have gripes and agendas that are in the fabric of their society's foundation. Black people's votes used to be worth 3/5 of a white persons. That's over there. Not here.

We are discussing this country. We are discussing mainly women's rights and such... in this country. If you can give me examples of women being legally handicapped, do it. I'll gladly campaign for them. More men die in the workplace. Is that sexism? No, it's just the numbers of it. More men take their own lives. Is that sexism? No, but it's worth looking at obviously. Men and women in this country, in 2018, are as equal as we've ever been. People are free to practise what ever religion they see fit, or none at all. In this country. People are allowed to marry whoever they want regardless of gender as of a few years ago. In this country. If you wanna discuss places where laws and attitudes against homosexuals, women, other religions, races etc are acceptable and normal... I'd suggest starting somewhere other than Ireland.

I'm gonna have to bang you on ignore now for a bit. Not because your questions are taxing but because it actually makes me feel sad that you a) believe the tripe you type or b) are on the absolute wind-up. I don't know which is worse.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Here, I've answered all your questions that are pertinent to women in this country being discriminated against. We're not here to discuss the basket case that is US politics. You wanna keep things ''relevant'' when it suits you but are happy to shift the goal posts when your narrative isn't met. FWIW, black people and groups in the States have gripes and agendas that are in the fabric of their society's foundation. Black people's votes used to be worth 3/5 of a white persons. That's over there. Not here.

We are discussing this country. We are discussing mainly women's rights and such... in this country. If you can give me examples of women being legally handicapped, do it. I'll gladly campaign for them. More men die in the workplace. Is that sexism? No, it's just the numbers of it. More men take their own lives. Is that sexism? No, but it's worth looking at obviously. Men and women in this country, in 2018, are as equal as we've ever been. People are free to practise what ever religion they see fit, or none at all. In this country. People are allowed to marry whoever they want regardless of gender as of a few years ago. In this country. If you wanna discuss places where laws and attitudes against homosexuals, women, other religions, races etc are acceptable and normal... I'd suggest starting somewhere other than Ireland.

I'm gonna have to bang you on ignore now for a bit. Not because your questions are taxing but because it actually makes me feel sad that you a) believe the tripe you type or b) are on the absolute wind-up. I don't know which is worse.

So you’re saying that even though black people in the US have legal equality there are still issues for them to campaign on.

Therefore legal equality is not full equality.

So I think we are in agreement on that. And now that we’ve clarified that I’m happy to answer the question put to me earlier:

I don’t think there’s any legal discrimination of women in Ireland, at least once the abortion legislation is passed.

However as you agree Omackeral, legal discrimination/oppression/issues are not the only issues to be campaigned on and I believe there are social issues/discrimination facing women and feminist campaigners are right to campaign about these issues.

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do black people in the US have anything left to campaign about?

Not much, no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r6m7ZUcmOQ

py2006

Candie wrote: »

I've a retro style kitchen and have bought quite a few vintage things online for it. Everything today looks so samey in comparison. I really do want that toaster.

...awaits kitchen pics

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think you’re wrong here. Yes women do shame other women for sleeping around but men have a far worse attitude towards it. And it doesn’t have to be announced. I could give a recent example where a girl I know who has had maybe 5 sexual partners 2 of them long term in ten years turned up at a guy she was dating a house one night drunk and horny. He told everyone about it and her male friends took her aside saying she was being discussed in the gaa lockerroom as easy and had she no self respect etc. Eve though they’re happy to sleep around themselves.

So I’m afraid this one doesn’t come under your personal responsibility remit. She didn’t announce it to everyone. That was done for her.

Yes, it's considered group mentality. There's also gossip. I've had my own private life and dating habits talked about by groups, most of whom, were strangers. The reason I can attest to men being called sluts too, is that I've been on the receiving end of it myself, when I was dating four women at the same time (they all knew about each other, but nobody wanted to go "serious"), and yet, this group of people felt the need to pass judgment on my life.

There are idiots everywhere who love to comment on other peoples lives.

not gonna even argue this point. If you think men who sleep around get the exact same attitudes and treatment as women who sleep around.......

I’ll just let everyone reading that come to their own conclusion based on personal experience.

Personal experience? I've encountered both situations, in various degrees of severity. As for your not arguing the point... yup.

Considering it was before her presentation..... probably not.

Another example would be of the two most successful PhD students known among my peer group. The male one was never really commented on. The odd bit of jealousy that he was doing so well. The female was torn apart. So many negative comments about her work ethic, and contradictorily the sexual acts she must have performed to get accepted to the journals.

Ok.

Rory28

Kimbot wrote: »

I honestly think LON should get this: https://www.nisbets.ie/dualit-conveyor-turbo-toaster/j416?vatToggle=incvat&cm_mmc=PLA-_-811305828-_-44429883080-_-J416&gclid=1%3Fcm_mmca1%3Dd70d512c-8029-4cce-acb5-7ec5712c4712&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgqqH3Kzi2wIV6J3tCh2C2w6QEAQYASABEgI8ovD_BwE

Thats some heavy duty toasting. I don't think the parents would like the look of the ESB bill after a month of that in use. We have a similar one in the office canteen. If you want warm bread or charcoal bread then this is the toaster for you.

I'd recommend the george foreman grill, which is fantastic for everything but the name might put her off. Change it nancy foreman, and not tell her?

Yeah_Right

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well it’s a bit like saying “can you point out any areas where black people are discriminated against but you can’t mention police shootings”, then decide that the other person is struggling because you’ve forbidden them from naming the main one.

You’re free to disagree with my list, but the idea that I’m struggling to come up with a list just because you disagree with my examples and in your head have forbidden me from mentioning the main one is a very silly and transparent tactic.

General sexual politics is attitudes to women’s sexuality. There are still major double standards when it comes to women having sex.

In terms of science I’m talking about negative attitudes of male scientists towards the work of female scientists, which I hear constantly.

In terms of gender roles I think it goes a lot for there than simply different toys. Attitudes towards play, and attitudes towards physical appearances differ for Male and female children in my experience.

You really are a bit precious. I didn't forbid you from doing anything. I asked for some examples aside from sexual violence because I already understand that sexual violence is a problem and can't be tolerated.

Attitudes to women's sexuality have changed and are changing further. I don't think there needs to be campaigns or education about it. It seems to be evolving quite naturally.

I'll take your word as far as science goes as I don't work in that area. I have heard it was an issue in the past (like in tech). Maybe that is something the scientific community in Ireland need to look at.

Attitudes towards play and towards physical appearance differ for male and female children. No sh!t. Boys and girls are different.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, it's considered group mentality. There's also gossip. I've had my own private life and dating habits talked about by groups, most of whom, were strangers. The reason I can attest to men being called sluts too, is that I've been on the receiving end of it myself, when I was dating four women at the same time (they all knew about each other, but nobody wanted to go "serious"), and yet, this group of people felt the need to pass judgment on my life.

There are idiots everywhere who love to comment on other peoples lives.



Personal experience? I've encountered both situations, in various degrees of severity. As for your not arguing the point... yup.



Ok.

I’ve heard men being criticised for sleeping around too. But NOWHERE near as often, as vitriloically, or for an equal level of reasons as women. Not even vaguely close.

LLMMLL

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You really are a bit precious. I didn't forbid you from doing anything. I asked for some examples aside from sexual violence because I already understand that sexual violence is a problem and can't be tolerated.

Attitudes to women's sexuality have changed and are changing further. I don't think there needs to be campaigns or education about it. It seems to be evolving quite naturally.

I'll take your word as far as science goes as I don't work in that area. I have heard it was an issue in the past (like in tech). Maybe that is something the scientific community in Ireland need to look at.

Attitudes towards play and towards physical appearance differ for male and female children. No sh!t. Boys and girls are different.

And I’ve given you examples. And will continue to use sexual violence as one of the main ones. So there’s no struggle for me to come up with issues that women face.

What constitutes natural change? Can you isolate exactly why attitudes towards women’s sexuality have changed in say the last 30 years? Magic? Natural change would just as likely to be conservative as liberal. Claiming there’s just a natural change in social attitudes is a major cop out.

I used to think the same around attitudes towards children until I witnessed children being raised. From the very second they had hair enough to grow out and be identified as a boy or a girl the comments started. I was actually shocked when I witnessed what was commonly said to a 2-3 year old girl versus what was said to her brother.

Boom_Bap

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’ve heard men being criticised for sleeping around too. But NOWHERE near as often, as vitriloically, or for an equal level of reasons as women. Not even vaguely close.

I've heard the same criticisms, but both as vitriolic from men as from women.

Sky King

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd recommend the george foreman grill, which is fantastic for everything but the name might put her off. Change it nancy foreman, and not tell her?

George Foreperson plz.