Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Rights re showing nipples. Sounds serious. Assuming you feel strongly about it, what's the best course of action?

Well, suppose I could just post a topless woman in the Beautiful Women thread everytime a topless man is posted in the Beautiful Men thread, but I think I'd get in trouble.

You might get in trouble. If you actually care about the issue and actually want to change things, you do that as a method of protest to raise awareness.

But the point was to ask whether there is anything left to campaign for. Is the nipples issue something you’re willing to campaign for?

sydthebeat

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might get in trouble. If you actually care about the issue and actually want to change things, you do that as a method of protest to raise awareness.

But the point was to ask whether there is anything left to campaign for. Is the nipples issue something you’re willing to campaign for?

I have no problem gettng my nipples out if Beyonce will too..... I mean, that's the essence of equality isn't it?

Outlaw Pete

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might but the point was to ask whether there is anything left to campaign for. Is the nipples issue something you’re willing to campaign for?

Ah I see, well I'd be willing to campaign for it alright but not something too extreme. Like I don't think I'd be willing to wear a wollen nipple on my head akin to those pussy hats, or put insulation tape crosses on my nipples (like the Femen ladies do on xHamster) and then storm the Boards office in D8 or anything, but I might write a strongly worded letter PM and encourage others to do the same.

Outlaw Pete

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah I see, well I'd be willing to campaign for it alright but not something too extreme. Like I don't think I'd be willing to wear a wollen nipple on my head akin to those pussy hats, or put insulation tape crosses on my nipples (like the Femen ladies do on xHamster) and then storm the Boards office in D8 or anything, but I might write a strongly worded letter PM and encourage others to do the same.

You've got my support.

I'll even join in on the strongly worded pm.

El_Duderino 09

sydthebeat wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might get in trouble. If you actually care about the issue and actually want to change things, you do that as a method of protest to raise awareness.

But the point was to ask whether there is anything left to campaign for. Is the nipples issue something you’re willing to campaign for?

I have no problem being my nipples out if Beyonce will too..... I mean, that's the essence of equality isn't it?

I suppose you could suggest it to Beyoncé

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might but the point was to ask whether there is anything left to campaign for. Is the nipples issue something you’re willing to campaign for?

Ah I see, well I'd be willing to campaign for it alright but not something too extreme. Like I don't think I'd be willing to wear a wollen nipple on my head akin to those pussy hats, or put insulation tape crosses on my nipples (like the Femen ladies do on xHamster) and then storm the Boards office in D8 or anything, but I might write a strongly worded letter PM and encourage others to do the same.

Pitty you’re not willing to wear a nipple hat. Those pussy hat wearing feminists get things done.

I think it’s telling that the discussions turned to farce when asked for issues men could campaign about.

Is it any wonder men’s issues aren’t taken as seriously as feminist issues.

Omackeral

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think it’s telling that the discussions turned to farce when asked for issues men could campaign about.

Already mentioned rights for fathers. Mothers automatically get custody unless there's extreme circumstances. Now tell us again, because I haven't seen anything concrete since this thread started, what rights issues do women face in Ireland?

Outlaw Pete

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Pitty you’re not willing to wear a nipple hat. Those pussy hat wearing feminists get things done.

I think it’s telling that the discussions turned to farce when asked for issues men could campaign about.

Is it any wonder men’s issues aren’t taken as seriously as feminist issues.

Oh would you give over.

Almost everything you and LLMMLL have given up as examples of why feminism is still needed in western society (or indeed put forward as evidence that women are being oppressed) has been shown to be absurd, to say the bloody least. A little self depreciating levity and you think all of a sudden you must have made some ground? Do me a favour.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Already mentioned rights for fathers.

Well, if we are the judge by the feminist movement, then there are heaps of things that men could be campaigning for. Father's Rights and equal treatment in court cases (sentencing) have already been mentioned, but there are others.

The Bias of the Police and Media to paint males as the automatic guilty party when two genders are involved. Domestic abuse cases usually favor the female right from the beginning.

Reproductive rights. Its interesting the focus by women about their absolute rights regarding their body, and I can certainly understand their need to have control... but in the case of reproduction, male rights are pretty much non-existent, in spite of the need for men to be involved. When it comes down to it, society decides that the male either coughs up the cash to support children, or the woman chooses to abort/give up the child. Either way, the male is expected to simply accept the woman's choice. --- And while, I don't know the answer to this one, it's definitely something that many men would like to be opened up for debate, with men having more influence over what happens to their lives. [I have two friends who were overjoyed to hear they would be fathers, and then crushed when their respective girlfriends decided to abort them. No involvement of the boyfriends in the situation, beyond seeking financial contributions.]

The perception on men about sex... the idea of a male with a much younger woman is seen as dodgy, but the idea of a older woman with a younger man is tolerated. While I'm not advocating pedophilia or underage dating, the social perception is hardly equal with women getting a free pass for the same behavior that would put men inside a jail cell.

And then we could start pushing for genuine equality in the workplace, especially with regards to sexual harassment removing all those jokes or behaviors that women often find so offensive coming from men, but perfectly acceptable when coming from a group of women. We could push for the actual removal of the quota system as it is sexist, by pushing men out of positions that they are skilled for simply because the numbers of women don't match those of the men... pointing out the hypocrisy of female dominated fields which have no demands for quotas of men. Not that we actually need quotas, but rather that we go back to having skill, qualifications and experience (competition) as being the influencers in getting a position, rather than gender.

If we are, indeed, talking about equality, then let's talk about equality. And if we are to judge equality by the same standards as feminists (even moderate feminism) then the issues for equality go far beyond legal changes but also social/cultural perceptions too. I wonder would feminists be so understanding if men started demanding changes similar to what they've been pushing for?

Alas, I'm not really sure men pushing hard (like feminists have) for equality, or male rights, would actually improve our society much. I suspect it would create too many divisions, and friction. An encouragement of the us Vs them mentality that many feminists seem to have but spreading it wide within our society.

upandcumming

Deleted User wrote: »

Alas, I'm not really sure men pushing hard (like feminists have) for equality, or male rights, would actually improve our society much. I suspect it would create too many divisions, and friction. An encouragement of the us Vs them mentality that many feminists seem to have but spreading it wide within our society.

I'm be inclined to agree here. Men pushing in a similar fashion would simply be seen as an attack on women, encouraging this farce that is known as rape 'culture', and whatever other bullshit. Then we'll have more rubbish like this:

My phone lights up, not once, but twice, and then again and again and again.

“Found not guilty”, a friend texts into one Whatsapp group. “Not guilty” a different group fires up. “All defendants not guilty.”

No, is my reply. No, No, No. My friends don’t need to explain any further. They don’t need to tell me what trial they are talking about. I know. I text back and I say that I am shocked, that I cannot believe it.

But I am not shocked and I can believe it, I can believe it with devastating ease. For I knew this would happen.

Give me a break.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Oh would you give over.

Almost everything you and LLMMLL have given up as examples of why feminism is still needed in western society (or indeed put forward as evidence that women are being oppressed) has been shown to be absurd, to say the bloody least. A little self depreciating levity and you think all of a sudden you must have made some ground? Do me a favour.

I must have missed where they’ve been shown to be absurd.

Was it your paper that showed that Male college students are more likely to judge female promiscuity harsher than Male promiscuity?

But like, that's just the whole 'Master key, ****ty lock' thing..

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which is still a huge leap of logic to accuse me of writing three different statements which you cannot actually quote.



Nope. I said I can't recall of any grand campaigns during that period. You do realise that you're leaving out chunks of info here? I said in the previous paragraph:

Quoted from Klaz -- "Now, I can't recall of a single piece of advertising or campaigning while I lived in Ireland until I left in my 30s which sought to raise awareness or acceptance of gay people. In fact, most acceptance came from being exposed to them in University, and later having colleagues in work who were "camp", or obviously gay. It was their behavior and attitude that made being gay acceptable. "
(oddly enough from the link I provided.. Did you even bother rereading it?)

That explanation might make sense if your “No grand campaigns to change adult minds” came directly after your observation that you had not witnessed any.

However you move on to discuss the reasons gay people became accepted. The “no grand campaigns to change adult minds” is clearly to contrast the previous sentence “it was their behaviour and attitude that made being gay acceptable”.

Unless you’re spectacularly bad at ordering your thoughts in writing (which you don’t seem to be), then you obviously meant that campaigns did not “make being gay acceptable”.

Maybe if you had written “I didn’t see any grand campaigns to change adult minds” it’d be a bit more believable. Though it’d still be strange to repeat a point you’d already made before now that you’d moved on to discuss the reasons gay people became accepted.

Its like:

1. I didn’t see any campaigns
2. Gay people became accepted because living their lives
3. I didn’t see any campaigns.

So either you’re pretending that you didn’t mean campaigns did not change peoples minds or your writing was so unclear that your point was easily misunderstood and nobody is out to misquote you.

Which is it?

Stop looking for a black and white answer. I'm sure there were promotional campaigns in Dublin, although I have no memory of similar campaigns either while I worked there or aimed at the rest of the country. But I'm guessing that the Gay rights movements were campaigning in various ways. However, that doesn't change that homosexuality gained far more acceptance in Irish society through the efforts of gay people simply to live their lives... by being exposed to gay people, mainstream society adapted over

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Stop looking for a black and white answer. I'm sure there were promotional campaigns in Dublin, although I have no memory of similar campaigns either while I worked there or aimed at the rest of the country. But I'm guessing that the Gay rights movements were campaigning in various ways. However, that doesn't change that homosexuality gained far more acceptance in Irish society through the efforts of gay people simply to live their lives... by being exposed to gay people, mainstream society adapted over time.

Except I said I was not talking about promotional campaigns, I said That campaigning is any public statement that someone makes to further the goals of their cause.

Restricting it to promotional campaigns is frankly ridiculous. When talking about LON and other feminists as campaigners, you’re talking about individuals who do not partake in promotional campaigns. Why then would you restrict your comments on campaigns to promotional campaigns? And yes I know we’re talking about gay rights. But the whole point of this digression is to show that campaigning is important using the gay rights movement as an example.

So yes, ignoring multiple times my talk of people who campaign by publically raising issues, whether that be formal campaigning such as promotional campaigns or lobbying, or more informal campaigning such as picking up people using homophobic language, and only discussing the fact that promotional campaigns are rare (I agree) and that people living their lives contributed to changing attitudes (I agree) it does come across that you think people living their lives is the only contributor to changing attitudes.

You complain about being misinterpreted but NEVER clarify. So let’s clarify. Do you believe the following contributed to changing attitudes on gay rights, directly or indirectly?:

1 formal campaigning. Examples: promotional campaigns, lobbying etc. Basically actions taken by groups or individuals in the legal/political/media sphere. This includes 1993 decriminalisation. Pre SSM campaigning for civil partnership, discrimination cases taken by gay people.

2 informal campaigning. Public statements on issues faced. Examples: pointing out to colleagues or friends homophobic language or actions, talking to people directly about their experiences. These differ from simply “living their lives” as I’m sure you agree straight people don’t generally have to explain their relationships or desire for a right to marriage.

3 just publically living their lives. Basically just publically doing things that a straight couple would do in public.

And if you believe 1 and 2 did contribute was it in a minor way compared to 3 or more?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

That explanation might make sense if your “No grand campaigns to change adult minds” came directly after your observation that you had not witnessed any.

Err... It did. Same post. The one where I posted the link.

It's becoming painfully obvious that you didn't bother reading the post again.

Another piece of snippage simply because you're going off on a tangent based on false logic. Reread the bloody post, not just use your memory of it.

Except I said I was not talking about promotional campaigns, I said That campaigning is any public statement that someone makes to further the goals of their cause.

You did? I must have missed that part. Which post number?

So yes, ignoring multiple times my talk of people who campaign by publically raising issues, whether that be formal campaigning such as promotional campaigns or lobbying, or more informal campaigning such as picking up people using homophobic language, and only discussing the fact that promotional campaigns are rare (I agree) and that people living their lives contributed to changing attitudes (I agree) it does come across that you think people living their lives is the only contributor to changing attitudes.

Ignoring what exactly? El_D was the only poster to give any actual reference to any campaigns by Gay rights campaigners. You simply said that the campaigns were important and nothing really changed until much later.

You complain about being misinterpreted but NEVER clarify. So let’s clarify. Do you believe the following contributed to changing attitudes on gay rights, directly or indirectly?:

Never clarify? I made a pretty clear statement. That I couldn't recall any major promotional campaign for Gay rights until i left in my 30s. I added later after discussion with you, that I assume that there were such campaigns but I never saw any of them.

Now, you're hellbent on these campaigns, so I'll expand and say that everything has an influence and pushed towards equality. However, you seem to be rather selective about your own posts. In fact, it's almost as if the sequence of your posts don't matter once they're added... although it does seem to matter when it comes to mine.

In any case, I'm finished discussing the gay rights movement with you because we've gone around in circles many times. And in spite of your claims of my being vague, and misrepresenting you, the same accusation has been leveled at you repeatedly, and you've ignored it.

El_Duderino 09

Omackeral wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think it’s telling that the discussions turned to farce when asked for issues men could campaign about.

Already mentioned rights for fathers. Mothers automatically get custody unless there's extreme circumstances. Now tell us again, because I haven't seen anything concrete since this thread started, what rights issues do women face in Ireland?

I think it’s already been established that the laws can be the same for men and women and there can be lots to campaign for in the application of the law.

But if you want me to give an example then I’d point to parental leave. There is maternity leave but not equal paternity leave. Meaning the onus is on the woman to care for the baby.

Parental leave which gives the parents choice about how to share their leave between them would give both men and women more choice.

El_Duderino 09

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Pitty you’re not willing to wear a nipple hat. Those pussy hat wearing feminists get things done.

I think it’s telling that the discussions turned to farce when asked for issues men could campaign about.

Is it any wonder men’s issues aren’t taken as seriously as feminist issues.

Oh would you give over.

Almost everything you and LLMMLL have given up as examples of why feminism is still needed in western society (or indeed put forward as evidence that women are being oppressed) has been shown to be absurd, to say the bloody least. A little self depreciating levity and you think all of a sudden you must have made some ground? Do me a favour.

Im sure you completely missed the fact that I didn’t take any part in that discussion you referenced. But, carry on.

I wonder what arguments you think I made. Would love to know.

But on the topic of turning to farce, where else could the conversation possibly go? It’s not like there’s a male version of LON out there campaigning for fathers rights so you can’t point to the problem and then point to the possible solution.

Instead the conversation goes from problem to farce. LON sees a problem and looks to actually solve it personally (by getting national publicity, writing books, a play, national radio and newspapers) and as part of a group. What a big eejit she is.

El_Duderino 09

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El_Duderino 09

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2smiggy

https://twitter.com/bbccomedy/status/1010189882503950336/video/1

2smiggy

https://twitter.com/bbccomedy/status/1010189882503950336/video/1

Omackeral

Fcuking patriarchy breaking boards all day.

py2006

At least we were without a couple annoying posters for a few hours.

LON at the Dublin RCC Body & Soul, wearing one of their "Ask Consent" Badges

I suppose those badges are a great way of notifying to someone that they're a 3rd wave looper and whinge harassment if you say hi to them

AllForIt

Dakota Brave Carrot wrote: »

LON at the Dublin RCC Body & Soul, wearing one of their "Ask Consent" Badges

I suppose those badges are a great way of notifying to someone that they're a 3rd wave looper and whinge harassment if you say hi to them

My boxer shorts are longer and less see-though than her leg wear.

What she say when you asked?..

She looks cracked..

Skyfloater

Reminds me of that Larson cartoon "When nature says "Do not touch""

yerwanthere123

Missed Louise being forced to tweet that apology. Must've stung

MikeyTaylor

Omackeral wrote: »

Fcuking patriarchy breaking boards all day.

Laura Whitmore fixed it for us. :-)