Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

razorblunt

py2006 wrote: »

In this day age if Darcy had of disagreed with her or questioned her he would called allsorts and accused of all sorts by feminists and no doubt loose his job.

Did he ask her if she likes porridge?

py2006

py2006 wrote: »

In this day age if Darcy had of disagreed with her or questioned her he would called allsorts and accused of all sorts by feminists and no doubt loose his job.

would that be a bad thing getting Darcy off the telly

Outlaw Pete

Not sure she said enough to warrant an apology from RTE but it's amazing that she has really learned nothing, despite her recently being legally forced to issue an apology on Twitter for retweeting an article which had suggested an Irish journalist was guilty of rape.

A lot was going on during that Belfast rape trial that I think many will have missed it, but here's a ridiculous article which she wrote shortly afterwards:

Ulster rape trial: Toxic masculinity culture must not win

My phone lights up, not once, but twice, and then again and again and again.

“Found not guilty”, a friend texts into one Whatsapp group. “Not guilty” a different group fires up. “All defendants not guilty.”

No, is my reply. No, No, No. My friends don’t need to explain any further. They don’t need to tell me what trial they are talking about. I know. I text back and I say that I am shocked, that I cannot believe it.

But I am not shocked and I can believe it, I can believe it with devastating ease. For I knew this would happen.

I am a woman living in Ireland and I have seen Not Guilty verdict after Not Guilty verdict, sure women are liars, aren’t they? They regret having sex the morning afterwards so they decide to ruin some poor young man’s life by crying rape.

We do not want to listen to their voices cracking in two, repeating over and over — I said no, I said no and they just kept on going, I said no, please believe me.

For what did these women expect, dressing like that, and going to parties, and trying to live in this world on their own terms? They should have known what to expect.

They should have been more careful. (Careless women, so many careless women. Limping home with shoes in hand and bruised thighs and broken hearts. Telling themselves what happened to them was their own fault.)

I’ve had a complicated relationship with the Ulster Rugby rape trial. Not a day went past without receiving a text message or a tweet from someone drawing parallels between my novel, Asking For It, and the case itself.

The similarities are uncanny. A young girl, a party, members of a sports team, an alleged gang rape. After Asking For It was released, an older gentleman approached me and told me it was a ‘good read’ but ‘implausible’. That just wouldn’t happen in Ireland, he said.

I thought of the Listowel case in 2009, when a local priest stood as character witness for a man accused of rape, and then 50 people lined up inside the courtroom to shake the hand of that same man when he was convicted.

I thought of how women have been treated by this State for generations, their bodies policed, their sexuality seen as a dangerous force that needed to be controlled at all costs. Thrown into Mother and Baby homes and Magdalene laundries, forced onto boats and flights to claim their right to make decisions about their own bodies. Desperate, scared, and alone.

That’s how Irish women have been raised. We carry our mother’s trauma in our bones, and her mother’s before that. We drag our limbs behind us, heavy with secrets that don’t even belong to us.

“Did you know,” I wanted to tell that man. “That in this country, only one in four victims of sexual violence report the crime. Of those one in four who report, only 10% will end up in court. Of that 10% who end up in court, less than 5% of cases will see a conviction. What do you mean, you don’t think this could happen in Ireland?”

But I didn’t say anything. And today, when I heard that verdict, I wish I had. I wish I had told him that I would love to live in his Ireland. I would love to know what it’s like to feel safe.

I know women. I know women, and they share their stories with me. A night stolen from you, whispered pleas that go unheeded. A night that you can never get back. (But they’re fine, of course, the people who did this to us, their futures unfold before them as if nothing ever happened. Women have pasts that must be held up and scrutinised in court, picked apart for proof of wrongdoing, but men have futures that must be protected at all costs.)

I’ve watched my friends hold their baby daughters closer to them, hoping the world will have changed by the time they grow up, that those little girls with pigtails and lisps won’t have to take their first steps with rape held as a constant threat above their heads. Don’t walk home alone, don’t drink too much, take care of your friends. (Don’t get raped. You will be ruined. You will be destroyed. And they will call you a liar and a slut while you beg for help.)

The young woman at the centre of the Ulster Rugby trial was reported as taking part in a text message exchange with a friend two weeks before that fateful night in which they discussed what they would do if they were subjected to sexual violence, with her friend saying she wouldn’t go to the police but would deal with the matter herself.

I was bemused to see commentary marvelling at the prescience of this. The truth is that women have these kinds of conversations all the time because we are resigned to the fact that sexual assault, from unwanted touching in a nightclub to waking up at a party to find someone raping you, is the price that we might have to pay to exist in female bodies in public spaces.

These two women were discussing the inevitability of being raped, but they were really, in fact, planning how they would survive it. Stay quiet, keep your head down.

“The thing is,” the complainant texted her friend the morning after, “I would report it if I knew they would get done. But they won’t. And that’s just unnecessary stress for me. It’s also humiliating. It will be a case of my word against theirs.”

Her word against theirs. Vaginal laceration, a woman in the back of a taxi weeping, bleeding. Texts between the accused that forced bile up my throat, made me look at all the men I know and think — you don’t do this, do you? You would never talk about me like this, would you? But never mind that. Boys will be boys. It’s just a bit of banter.

And they’re such good boys, don’t you know? Such promising sporting careers. It would be a shame to see that taken away from them because of one woman’s claims.

And now, on 28 March, 2018, they have been found not guilty which is not the same as innocent.

I believe her. I wish I could tell her that. I wish I could tell her how brave she was, and how grateful I am to her for that courage. I hope she has good people around her, and a support system to take care or her. I believe you. I believe you. I believe you.

It’s been difficult watching this case play out across national media. Listening to people discuss the case, dismissing it with a casual “well, none of us were there, were we? How do we know what went on?”

And every victim of sexual violence in hearing distance, male and female, watching and thinking — and what would you say if you heard my story? What would you do if I told you of a night that I was broken in two? Would you say “I wasn’t there, was I? How am I to know the truth?” Would you call me a liar too?

People used to tell me that Asking For It started a ‘national conversation’ about rape culture and I would much rather we have those conversations as a result of a fictional novel than on the back of a young woman’s lived experience.

Nevertheless, this is where we are now and whether or not you believe that a rape took place, it cannot be denied that this case has raised issues that urgently need to be addressed.

Between the line of questioning the victim was subjected to, the intense public scrutiny, and now this verdict — how can we even begin to measure the impact that this will have on other victims disclosing their stories?

How long can we continue to allow our judicial system to erect barriers that discourage victims from coming forward?

What are we going to do to bridge the gaps in a collective knowledge around how victims react to sexual violence? (The witness who opened the door into Paddy Jackson’s room that night said the woman didn’t seem in distress, and we as society still expect victims of sexual violence to scream and struggle, despite the fact that a common response to trauma is to freeze.)

What effect has the pornification of culture had on our young people, when women are being sexualised and objectified without their permission, and young men might think a threesome with a reportedly unresponsive woman is in anyway acceptable?

How are we going to tackle toxic masculinity that encourages this kind of aggressive sexuality in young men? And how are we going to dismantle the Old Boys’ network that protects its members, shrugging off this kind of behaviour with a casual “well, boys will be boys.”

The system is failing us for it is poisoned at its very roots. My heart is broken for that young woman and for all the other young women who watched this case so closely, fearful and hopeful in equal measure; women who will go to bed tonight wondering why this country hates them so much.

I stand with you all.

So much wrong with this muck, but most incredulously for me is how she just assumes the wrong verdict was reached. Not for a moment does she consider that the jury may have got it right. Believe women, that's the most important thing. A woman has said she was raped and that's all the proof that should be needed in Louise O'Neill's world (and sadly more and more people appear to be frequenting such a world these days).

If only she was so adamant about believing women when they're witnesses.

py2006

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

So much wrong with this muck, but most incredulously for me is how she just assumes the wrong verdict was reached. Not for a moment does she consider that the jury may have got it right. Believe women, that's the most important thing. A woman has said she was raped and that's all the proof that should be needed in Louise O'Neill's world (and sadly more and more people appear to be frequenting such a world these days).

If only she was so adamant about believing women when they're witnesses.

Well said

suicide_circus

can we please stop enabling this person's persecution complex with this thread. it's the oxygen of publicity and it needs to be cut, this person has nothing of value or substance to say.

Fr_Dougal

suicide_circus wrote: »

can we please stop enabling this person's persecution complex with this thread. it's the oxygen of publicity and it needs to be cut, this person has nothing of value or substance to say.

It would be worse if she was allowed to say what she wants without threads like this. As it is, she operates in an echo chamber because her parents are afraid to say anything in case her eating disorder returns, or they need to book her back into St John of Gods.

She’s a very ill individual.

Yeah, if this thread quietens down she might go back on the Twitter machine and start screaming in a visceral or gutteral manner..

Outlaw Pete

suicide_circus wrote: »

can we please stop enabling this person's persecution complex with this thread. it's the oxygen of publicity and it needs to be cut, this person has nothing of value or substance to say.

The thread was quiet when she was. Maybe she should take the hint.

RabbleRouser2k

Dakota Brave Carrot wrote: »

would that be a bad thing getting Darcy off the telly

When he mucked up the interview with the lawyer over the Steven Avery case-'ah you're gorjus, the wife talks about you all the time'- or the 'Jack Nicholson interview'-and tried to pin the blame on other people....

I think he knew his job was secure because after those debacles, I would have fired him on the spot.

But his show is just filler, when Mrs Browns Boys or whatever Brendan O'Carroll project comes out, they'll push his show to the graveyard hour. And that's how his show will be remembered-a graveyard. It doesn't even get promoted on RTE's website.

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2018/1012/1002205-whats-on-tv-picks-for-friday-saturday-and-sunday/

Woke Hogan

I've looked at a few of O'Neill's and Roe McDermott's articles, Twitter and Instagram pages. One thing that struck me about these figures is they love posting screenshots of their witty repartee between themselves and their families and friends. It's really self-absorbed behaviour, bragging about really mundane interactions.

RabbleRouser2k

Woke Hogan wrote: »

I've looked at a few of O'Neill's and Roe McDermott's articles, Twitter and Instagram pages. One thing that struck me about these figures is they love posting screenshots of their witty repartee between themselves and their families and friends. It's really self-absorbed behaviour, bragging about really mundane interactions.

Yep, a culture of narcissism. I've seen too much of that.

Roe McDermott was on tv one night trying to debate a model. At one point the model said something like 'Admiring beauty is a sign of intelligence' or some such-and Roe's blood froze and she just stared at her.
Tbh, the model made a few great points, and Roe looked like she'd freak out if someone said 'nice weather' to her.

I'd say LON and her crew are freaking out and rushing to their safe spaces-The Snapper's on tv tonight.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Bollox is what I say. It's not the abuse that Louise can't take on Twitter, it's people pointing out her wrongheadedness. It's people saying to her that perhaps assuming men's guilt is not very nice and calling Christmas songs evidence of rape a bit ott. It's people tweeting her many examples of women imprisoned for false allegations of rape when she says 'Why would a woman lie'. It's highlighting examples of people like John Leslie when she says powerful men's careers do fine even if falsely accused. It's all this that she can't handle. She's happy in her delusion and doesn't want to deal with anyone daring to disagree with her. Well, she must love being interviewed by muppets like Darcy so.

Well take this thread as a shining example. Since it was resurrected a few days ago up until your post it’s been full on insults. Yours is the only one that refers to what she’s actually saying. The rest are making fun of her living with her parents or insinuating she has full on mental illness.

Can we stop pretending that the majority of people LON encounters on social media are having a calm reasoned debate with her?

RabbleRouser2k

LLMMLL wrote: »

Well take this thread as a shining example. Since it was resurrected a few days ago up until your post it’s been full on insults. Yours is the only one that refers to what she’s actually saying. The rest are making fun of her living with her parents or insinuating she has full on mental illness.

Can we stop pretending that the majority of people LON encounters on social media are having a calm reasoned debate with her?

Hard to tell-since she mutes and blocks. She even tried to rally her followers to insult someone when they wished to debate her on instagram.

LLMMLL

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Hard to tell-since she mutes and blocks. She even tried to rally her followers to insult someone when they wished to debate her on instagram.

It’s not hard to tell at all. Look at the last 5 pages or so if this thread and the Number of posts which are just plain insulting her and the number which actually mentioned anything she said on ray darcy.

And you can bet twitter would be a lot worse than boards.

Nice try trying to use the her reaction to being constantly insulted as a negative against her though.

RabbleRouser2k

LLMMLL wrote: »

It’s not hard to tell at all. Look at the last 5 pages or so if this thread and the Number of posts which are just plain insulting her and the number which actually mentioned anything she said on ray darcy.

And you can bet twitter would be a lot worse than boards.

Nice try trying to use the her reaction to being constantly insulted as a negative against her though.

We're not talking about boards, we're talking about twitter and instagram-which is what you mentioned. LON doesn't use Boards.

The difference is twitter allows blocking and muting. She doesn't debate. We've seen it time and time again.

When did I mention anything about using 'her reaction to being constantly insulted as a negative against her?"

LLMMLL

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

We're not talking about boards, we're talking about twitter and instagram-which is what you mentioned. LON doesn't use Boards.

The difference is twitter allows blocking and muting. She doesn't debate. We've seen it time and time again.

When did I mention anything about using 'her reaction to being constantly insulted as a negative against her?"

I’m pointing out that the reaction she gets on Twitter is hardly likely to have a majority or even significant minority trying to engage her in serious open minded debate rather than insult her. It doesn’t matter that twitter isn’t boards unless you seriously believe that twitter people are more likely to engage in debate over insults than boards people (come on...).

Rather than acknowledge that, you’re trying to highlight her blocking people to keep the focus of negativity on her.

Richard Hillman

She does have mental health issues. These are documented by herself. She regularly visits therapist and has anorexia. We can't pretend that her personal issues do not help form her manic views.

Sinéad O Connor is bat**** crazy but when she goes cray-cray people say "ok, time to put down the laptop". When LON goes cray-cray, her editor at the Examiner hands her the laptop for the cheap website hits and RTE invite her on TV or radio to echo her manic views. People are taking advantage of her.

RabbleRouser2k

LLMMLL wrote: »

I’m pointing out that the reaction she gets on Twitter is hardly likely to have a majority or even significant minority trying to engage her in serious open minded debate rather than insult her. It doesn’t matter that twitter isn’t boards unless you seriously believe that twitter people are more likely to engage in debate over insults than boards people (come on...).

Rather than acknowledge that, you’re trying to highlight her blocking people to keep the focus of negativity on her.

I follow many writers on twitter-many of them women. Blake Northcott, one example, is a very good writer who gets a majority who love to talk and discuss stuff with her. It's a tiny, tiny minority who try to insult her (even fellow women writers have tried to start crap with her).
You're being very myopic if you think people just want to insult individuals-most want to engage and debate

I highlighted the blocking thing because she doesn't allow debating-which you yourself brought up. That's a negative, yes, but also a fact. Whether you see that as a negative on her as a whole is up to you.

LLMMLL

Richard Hillman wrote: »

She does have mental health issues. These are documented by herself. She regularly visits therapist and has anorexia. We can't pretend that her personal issues do not help form her manic views.

Sinéad O Connor is bat**** crazy but when she goes cray-cray people say "ok, time to put down the laptop". When LON goes cray-cray, her editor at the Examiner hands her the laptop for the cheap website hits and RTE invite her on TV or radio to echo her manic views. People are taking advantage of her.

How on earth does an eating disorder form her views? I’m all ears.

LLMMLL

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I follow many writers on twitter-many of them women. Blake Northcott, one example, is a very good writer who gets a majority who love to talk and discuss stuff with her. It's a tiny, tiny minority who try to insult her (even fellow women writers have tried to start crap with her).
You're being very myopic if you think people just want to insult individuals-most want to engage and debate

I highlighted the blocking thing because she doesn't allow debating-which you yourself brought up. That's a negative, yes, but also a fact. Whether you see that as a negative on her as a whole is up to you.

I know nothing about Blake northcott but the existence one female twitter user you perceive that the majority of the people who message her are looking for debate (not sure how you’d even know what the content of the majority of messages she receives is) does not mean that the majority of people who interact with LON on twitter are looking for a reasonable debate.

It’s clear from this thread that for LON that’s not the case.

I don’t see it as a negative on her. I think the people she blocks deserve to be blocked.

RabbleRouser2k

LLMMLL wrote: »

I know nothing about Blake northcott but the existence one female twitter user you perceive that the majority of the people who message her are looking for debate (not sure how you’d even know what the content of the majority of messages she receives is) does not mean that the majority of people who interact with LON on twitter are looking for a reasonable debate.

It’s clear from this thread that for LON that’s not the case.

I don’t see it as a negative on her. I think the people she blocks deserve to be blocked.

Northcott has stated as such-she's very open on twitter. She says the majority are debaters, not insulters.

This is one thread-her twitter feed is far larger.

You don't even know those people-you're basing this entirely on speculation.

Anyway, it's late, I've things to do tomorrow. Take care and g'nite.

LLMMLL

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Northcott has stated as such-she's very open on twitter. She says the majority are debaters, not insulters.

This is one thread-her twitter feed is far larger.

You don't even know those people-you're basing this entirely on speculation.

Anyway, it's late, I've things to do tomorrow. Take care and g'nite.

It’s not speculation to use this thread as an example. As I’ve said, since it started up again a few days ago there were 3 pages of insults and mental health jibes up until outlaw petes post. The first to actually address anything she said either in the interview or in the past.

Now maybe you think the average twitter user is more polite and more engaged than the average boards user. Honestly I think you’d have to be crazy to believe that.

Again I know nothing about the writer you’re talking about or what she debates with people.

Signore Fancy Pants

I wonder how long a male "journalist" would be employed if they were to be "brave" and continually target women.

Hector Savage

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

She said that she’s living at home with her parents at the age of 33. Snowflake hasn’t been weaned yet.

Actually, slightly off topic here but I notice that a LOT lately, I get there is a housing crisis, but I'm talking about 40 year olds living at home and going on holidays with their parents still Whats with that ?

Hector Savage

Deleted User wrote: »

Would have thought once she was getting the ride on the regular she'd calm down a small bit..

(Once yer man had all the appropriate paperwork in order..)

Are you kiddin?
He probably has to do flaccid entry on her

nthclare

Who's Louise O Neil ?

The Rape of Lucretia

Anyone's.

nthclare

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Anyone's.

Telpis

Hector Savage

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Just watched the interview and think it was nothing short of a fcuking disgrace.

Ignoring the fact that arsehole Darcy spoke about rape culture as if it's an actually thing, he more infuriatingly then tee'd her up to compare the situation in her book (a brutal gang rape) with the Belfast rape trial. At no stage did he say 'I must point out that the men at the center of that case in Belfast were all found not-guilty' which he absolutely should have considering what was being discussed.

She went on to say that that when the verdict was reached she just had to speak out and Ray doesn't ask her why. Her saying that she had to speak out given the verdict that was reached was her suggesting, on our national broadcaster, that the jury were wrong and the men were in fact guilty as charged. Why else would she have felt compelled to speak out otherwise.

Darcy had an opportunity here to broach the topic of 'Guilty until proven Innocent' which we are currently seeing more and more of these days, especially in the case of Kavanaugh in the states. He could have, and should have, asked her why she feels we should automatically believe women, given that to do so means the automatic presumption of guilt of men.

Oh and as for her BS about having to get off Twitter for the sake of her mental health, we are talking about a platform where you can block and mute users, where they have their accounts closed if they are seen to harass you (especially those with a blue tick) and yet even then, in what eventually amounts to an echo chamber, with all the inevitable backslapping and virtual hugs, she can't take it.

Bollox is what I say. It's not the abuse that Louise can't take on Twitter, it's people pointing out her wrongheadedness. It's people saying to her that perhaps assuming men's guilt is not very nice and calling Christmas songs evidence of rape a bit ott. It's people tweeting her many examples of women imprisoned for false allegations of rape when she says 'Why would a woman lie'. It's highlighting examples of people like John Leslie when she says powerful men's careers do fine even if falsely accused. It's all this that she can't handle. She's happy in her delusion and doesn't want to deal with anyone daring to disagree with her. Well, she must love being interviewed by muppets like Darcy so.

Spot on, alone she is harmless, but people listen to her and morons like Ray Darcy indulge it and spread this "rape culture" bs.

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

How on earth does an eating disorder form her views? I’m all ears.

Well an illness like that will inform anyone's views to some degree. Any therapy would have shifting of negativity and unhealthy views to replace them with positive and healthy views as a major component. In her case she was suffering pretty badly from emotional stuff when working in the fashion biz in New York. Happens to the best of us, though for someone dealing with body image issues the New York fashion industry would be akin to asking an alcoholic to work in a brewery.

Anyway the therapist who she went to for help treated her through the medium of third wave feminism. Something I'd have serious ethical questions about. Her illness and recovery was filtered through and enabled by that political philosophy and she started to come out the other side. Of course that would have an effect. If the major lifeline in your life when you're at your most vulnerable an ocean away from home views the world in a particular way it's perfectly understandable that she would latch onto it with the fervour of the newly baptised. It would be more a shock if she hadn't. If the therapist had treated her through the medium of Marxism, or Libertarianism, or whatever, she'd have latched onto those too. Pretty much anyone would.