Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

Richard Hillman

LLMMLL wrote: »

How on earth does an eating disorder form her views? I’m all ears.

It is a mental health issue.

Water John

Very much agree with you Wibbs. On the other side there is no call for people to be personally abusive to her.

PlaneSpeeking

Hector Savage wrote: »

Spot on, alone she is harmless, but people listen to her and morons like Ray Darcy indulge it and spread this "rape culture" bs.

Oh there's a rape culture in a country beginning with I alright.

India.

py2006

Water John wrote: »

Very much agree with you Wibbs. On the other side there is no call for people to be personally abusive to her.

I agree with you, but then again when she persists in this rampant 'rape culture' in Ireland nonsense she is insulting all Irish men. When she has more or less suggested men rape as opposed to the vile minority that do she insults all men. When she suggests that ALL women must be believed because women never lie it is a very scary place for men.

She is insulting to men, to right thinking women.

In that regard, I don't fully blame those that throw insults back at her.

KrustyUCC

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

:

So much wrong with this muck, but most incredulously for me is how she just assumes the wrong verdict was reached. Not for a moment does she consider that the jury may have got it right. Believe women, that's the most important thing. A woman has said she was raped and that's all the proof that should be needed in Louise O'Neill's world (and sadly more and more people appear to be frequenting such a world these days).

If only she was so adamant about believing women when they're witnesses.

I wonder what Louise would make of this case?

Mum jailed for making false rape accusation against 18-year-old man

Newport Crown Court heard on Friday the mother-of-three had sex with victim Damon Osborne, who was 18 at the time, in a public toilet before telling him she could get him into "trouble" after he refused to be in a relationship with her.

Mr Osborne said: "It's turned my life upside down.

"Yes I had sex with her, but I was not expecting to be accused of rape because it was consensual.

"I was given a curfew on bail which had an impact on my work and social life.

"One employer said he no longer required me because I couldn't work the hours.

"Yes I did wrong by my partner, and I feel ashamed by my actions.

"I knew I was innocent but it didn't stop me thinking about the worst case scenario and being sent to prison for something I didn't do.

"If there was no CCTV in this case she may have been believed and I would be spending years in prison. It would have ruined my life."

Judge Daniel Williams said "Rape is a repulsive act. Victims of rape should be treated with every possible consideration by the justice system.

"But equally, a false allegation can have dreadful consequences.

"Every occasion a proven false allegation is made can have an insidious effect on public confidence in genuine complaints.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/mum-jailed-for-making-false-rape-accusation-against-18yearold-man-37415722.html

PlaneSpeeking

KrustyUCC wrote: »

I wonder what Louise would make of this case?

Mum jailed for making false rape accusation against 18-year-old man

Newport Crown Court heard on Friday the mother-of-three had sex with victim Damon Osborne, who was 18 at the time, in a public toilet before telling him she could get him into "trouble" after he refused to be in a relationship with her.

Mr Osborne said: "It's turned my life upside down.

"Yes I had sex with her, but I was not expecting to be accused of rape because it was consensual.

"I was given a curfew on bail which had an impact on my work and social life.

"One employer said he no longer required me because I couldn't work the hours.

"Yes I did wrong by my partner, and I feel ashamed by my actions.

"I knew I was innocent but it didn't stop me thinking about the worst case scenario and being sent to prison for something I didn't do.

"If there was no CCTV in this case she may have been believed and I would be spending years in prison. It would have ruined my life."

Judge Daniel Williams said "Rape is a repulsive act. Victims of rape should be treated with every possible consideration by the justice system.

"But equally, a false allegation can have dreadful consequences.

"Every occasion a proven false allegation is made can have an insidious effect on public confidence in genuine complaints.

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/mum-jailed-for-making-false-rape-accusation-against-18yearold-man-37415722.html

False rape accusations HAVE to be punished by the same prison sentence as rape.

Skylinehead

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

False rape accusations HAVE to be punished by the same prison sentence as rape.

It's not the case for literally any other crime (false accusations of fraud, murder, whatever), why should this be different?

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

Anyway the therapist who she went to for help treated her through the medium of third wave feminism. Something I'd have serious ethical questions about. Her illness and recovery was filtered through and enabled by that political philosophy and she started to come out the other side. Of course that would have an effect. If the major lifeline in your life when you're at your most vulnerable an ocean away from home views the world in a particular way it's perfectly understandable that she would latch onto it with the fervour of the newly baptised. It would be more a shock if she hadn't. If the therapist had treated her through the medium of Marxism, or Libertarianism, or whatever, she'd have latched onto those too. Pretty much anyone would.

A therapist who treated her through the medium of third wave feminism? Doesn’t make any sense, any more than the hypothetical treating someone through the medium of Marxism.

Do you know who her therapist was? How she was treated? Have access to her notes? How would
You have any insight into how therapy formed her views. Because you’re talking as if even if Marxism was a form of therapy (???) then OF COURSE it would influence people to become Marxists. That’s not a given at all.

LLMMLL

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It is a mental health issue.

Yeah I get that part. Not what I asked though. How has it formed her views? I know plenty of people with mental health issues and it generally hasn’t shaped their political/socio-political outlook at all.

Hector Savage

And why does LON defend Tupac Shakur ? He was convicted of sexual assault!

LLMMLL would you like to answer that maybe? - since I suspect you are LON!

Water John

I know plenty of people who smoked and didn't get lung cancer. Proves nothing.
We don't know what triggers her anorexia, well she correctly mentions stress, there may be other factors. But she also has other issues.She seems in some way to have concluded the men and their role in society has a large part to play in her and societies problems.

py2006

Ulster Shaggers wrote: »

Tupac gets a free pass due to his black privilege.

Yes, her prime target is the straight, white, western males. Feminists have narrowed down their hatred. So nice of them.

py2006

Ulster Shaggers wrote: »

I don't know why they hate white men so much.

It is all the privilege we have and the lack of discrimination we face*. You know us and our 6 figure salaries and top positions!





*me arse

skooterblue2

Ulster Shaggers wrote: »

I don't know why they hate white men so much.

Because they are white and they are men.

LLMMLL

Hector Savage wrote: »

And why does LON defend Tupac Shakur ? He was convicted of sexual assault!

LLMMLL would you like to answer that maybe? - since I suspect you are LON!

Did she defend him or just tweet something about being a fan?

LLMMLL

Water John wrote: »

I know plenty of people who smoked and didn't get lung cancer. Proves nothing.
We don't know what triggers her anorexia, well she correctly mentions stress, there may be other factors. But she also has other issues.She seems in some way to have concluded the men and their role in society has a large part to play in her and societies problems.

It proves that having a particular mental illness does not directly cause sociopolitical views.

So in the absence of knowing exactly what form her eating disorder takes, or what form of therapy she underwent, it’s ridiculous in the extreme to conclude that her views were formed by her eating disorder.

The smoking analogy is nonsense as there’s a clear causal link between smoking and lung cancer. So if a someone has lung cancer and was a heavy smoker it wouldn’t be ridiculous to say that the smoking caused it. It may be wrong but there’s a decent chance it’s right based on evidence.

There is no accepted causal link between eating disorders and feminist viewpoints. So you can’t claim that an opinion someone has that you don’t like is because of their eating disorder.

skooterblue2

LLMMLL wrote: »

It proves that having a particular mental illness does not directly cause sociopolitical views.

So in the absence of knowing exactly what form her eating disorder takes, or what form of therapy she underwent, it’s ridiculous in the extreme to conclude that her views were formed by her eating disorder.

The smoking analogy is nonsense as there’s a clear causal link between smoking and lung cancer. So if a someone has lung cancer and was a heavy smoker it wouldn’t be ridiculous to say that the smoking caused it. It may be wrong but there’s a decent chance it’s right based on evidence.

There is no accepted causal link between eating disorders and feminist viewpoints. So you can’t claim that an opinion someone has that you don’t like is because of their eating disorder.

The important thing that we have learned is that everything is WHITE MENS fault... them and their white privilege, STEM, corporate ladder, masculine toxicity and patriarchal system that controls every aspect of our lives.... *pants out of breath, foaming at the mouth*. Those are the real enemies of society

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

A therapist who treated her through the medium of third wave feminism? Doesn’t make any sense, any more than the hypothetical treating someone through the medium of Marxism.

Do you know who her therapist was? How she was treated? Have access to her notes? How would
You have any insight into how therapy formed her views. Because you’re talking as if even if Marxism was a form of therapy (???) then OF COURSE it would influence people to become Marxists. That’s not a given at all.

The Marxism part was a point of comparison and the point I was making. Of course it would be daft. As you say it would influence someone to become more Marxist. Yet a social political philosophy like feminism wouldn't?

As for her therapist's views, she herself has described her views and I quote from an interview:

""I had a massive relapse with anorexia while I was working in Elle, and then I started seeing a really good therapist. She was a really strong feminist, and tried to get me to understand how my idea of my place in the world as a woman, and my idea of what my body should look like, was playing into the fact that I'd had an eating disorder". It was a "feminist awakening" that would go on to inform all her work from that point."

Maybe she might have been better served to advise her to put some distance between herself and the fashion industry, an industry that exerts a huge influence of women's perceptions of themselves and how their bodies "should look like".

py2006 wrote: »

Yes, her prime target is the straight, white, western males. Feminists have narrowed down their hatred. So nice of them.

All such narratives that reference oppression for a group require as a given an oppressor of that group. Straight, white, western men are a charm for it. An easy target.

James Brown

skooterblue2 wrote: »

The important thing that we have learned is that everything is WHITE MENS fault... them and their white privilege, STEM, corporate ladder, masculine toxicity and patriarchal system that controls every aspect of our lives.... *pants out of breath, foaming at the mouth*. Those are the real enemies of society

I disagree, where were all the women while this patriarchy was taking hold? Out at Bingo I bet.

She noted in her articles - one was put up here she was exposed to this feminism by her therapist....the 2pac thing was also brought up here as he’s the ‘woke bae’

James Brown

Dakota Brave Carrot wrote: »

She noted in her articles - one was put up here she was exposed to this feminism by her therapist....the 2pac thing was also brought up here as he’s the ‘woke bae’

Yep, "That's why I f***ed your b*** you fat Motherf***er. F*** you and your motherf***ing Mama. Die slow Motherf***ers, I pop a cap in all yo Motherf***ers. Westside 'till we die. We bad boy killers".

'Hit 'em up', released the year he died. Enlightened SJW alright.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

The Marxism part was a point of comparison and the point I was making. Of course it would be daft. As you say it would influence someone to become more Marxist. Yet a social political philosophy like feminism wouldn't?

Actually I was disagreeing with you that a Marxist therapist would be a big influence. I don’t think a Marxist therapist would be an influence at all. If you didn’t agree with Marxism you’d listen to their Marxist explanation and be like “ok.......bye”.

As for her therapist's views, she herself has described her views and I quote from an interview:

So her therapist discussed with her the idea that her perceptions of body image was associated with her eating disorder? That’s some kind of radical feminist therapist to you? I mean..... that’s the least radical thing I’ve ever heard. If she hadn’t mentioned her therapist was a feminist you’d probably be calling that advice common sense.

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Actually I was disagreeing with you that a Marxist therapist would be a big influence. I don’t think a Marxist therapist would be an influence at all. If you didn’t agree with Marxism you’d listen to their Marxist explanation and be like “ok.......bye”.



So her therapist discussed with her the idea that her perceptions of body image was associated with her eating disorder? That’s some kind of radical feminist therapist to you? I mean..... that’s the least radical thing I’ve ever heard. If she hadn’t mentioned her therapist was a feminist you’d probably be calling that advice common sense.

Why did she make specific reference to the therapist being a (strong) feminist, if this wasn't significant?

Wibbs

LLMMLL wrote: »

Actually I was disagreeing with you that a Marxist therapist would be a big influence. I don’t think a Marxist therapist would be an influence at all. If you didn’t agree with Marxism you’d listen to their Marxist explanation and be like “ok.......bye”.

If Marxism - and I agree, not the best example - was part and parcel of therapy that helped explain to you your place in society and how Marxism would help view your problem, see you as a victim of the Anti Marxists and see a way to a better self image within a Marxist framework, of course it would have an influence. Particularly if Marxism was something you were already exposed to on a daily basis as background. Someone could latch onto it in a big way as a lifeline. Indeed, even though as I said it's not a great example, the communist Soviet Union saw the field of psychology as another tool in their social political armoury for a Better World™ You say you would dismiss it off hand. That's easy to say in a society that views it with suspicion and has transmitted that suspicion to your mind since you were born. Feminism as a social political philosophy is mainstream, even the provably dafter ends of it and has been for a couple of decades. Very different environment.

Take a different tack: if a shrink used spirituality as part of their box of tricks in therapy with people who are in their care in the first place because they're very vulnerable and did so in a climate that was already spiritual, it would again have a strong tendency to influence the patient into a more spiritual worldview. I have no doubt at the height of Good Old Catholic Ireland™ it was brought to bear. Again it would have been mainstream and largely unquestioned, so would be treated as "natural" to hear.

So her therapist discussed with her the idea that her perceptions of body image was associated with her eating disorder? That’s some kind of radical feminist therapist to you? I mean..... that’s the least radical thing I’ve ever heard. If she hadn’t mentioned her therapist was a feminist you’d probably be calling that advice common sense.

She is the one that described her shrink as a "strong feminist" who informed her "feminist awakening". "Common sense" sprinkled among the more hardline guff has been regularly used for political/religious/social purposes. The hard left do it, the hard right do it, the feminists do it, the anti feminists do it. It sweetens the pill and it's how you make nonsense more palatable.

This is pretty basic stuff really. It's why psychologists and psychiatrists are trained by every serious accredited professional body on the planet to be as objective as possible and to avoid bringing their own personal hobby horses to bear in the treatment of the vulnerable. And if they don't they get called on it. And as givyjoe noted she herself points this person out as a big influence in her life and thinking from that point onwards.

Never mind that she was in an industry like fashion and is still into the whole fashion thing. Something I could never quite understand gelled with any truly feminist worldview. An industry that one could easily argue is largely built on exploiting the insecurities of women. And worse it's getting to keep those billions rolling in on a yearly basis. As I said earlier, when an industry like porn, one aimed at and overwhelmingly produced by men(mostly straight white men with it), shows more diversity in women's body shapes, ethnicities and ages in a month than the fashion industry has in a century it does beg more than a few questions.

LLMMLL

givyjoe wrote: »

Why did she make specific reference to the therapist being a (strong) feminist, if this wasn't significant?

Because she believes the therapist is a strong feminist obviously.

None of us know or ever will know the form the therapy took. Here’s a very plausible alternative:

Therapist draws a link between body image and eating disorder. A very neutral non controversial hypothesis.

LON separately to the therapy believes body image concerns are the domain of feminists and thus describes her therapist as a feminist.

That doesn’t mean the therapist indoctrinated her into the cult of feminism.

LLMMLL

Wibbs wrote: »

If Marxism - and I agree, not the best example - was part and parcel of therapy that helped explain to you your place in society and how Marxism would help view your problem, see you as a victim of the Anti Marxists and see a way to a better self image within a Marxist framework, of course it would have an influence. Particularly if Marxism was something you were already exposed to on a daily basis as background. Someone could latch onto it in a big way as a lifeline. Indeed, even though as I said it's not a great example, the communist Soviet Union saw the field of psychology as another tool in their social political armoury for a Better World™ You say you would dismiss it off hand. That's easy to say in a society that views it with suspicion and has transmitted that suspicion to your mind since you were born. Feminism as a social political philosophy is mainstream, even the provably dafter ends of it and has been for a couple of decades. Very different environment.

Take a different tack: if a shrink used spirituality as part of their box of tricks in therapy with people who are in their care in the first place because they're very vulnerable and did so in a climate that was already spiritual, it would again have a strong tendency to influence the patient into a more spiritual worldview. I have no doubt at the height of Good Old Catholic Ireland™ it was brought to bear. Again it would have been mainstream and largely unquestioned, so would be treated as "natural" to hear.

You keep using the words “of course” to describe the potential influence of political ideologies in therapy. But it’s anything but certain.

If a therapist used “spirituality” in therapy on a non spiritual person then that person would probably walk out. If they used it on a neutral person that person may or may not be influenced by it. You’re treating it as if there is an almost guaranteed influence of the therapist ideology. I reject that opinion completely.

And the type of feminism that LON is into was most definitely not mainstream when she was in NY which as far as I know was a good few years ago.

She is the one that described her shrink as a "strong feminist" who informed her "feminist awakening". "Common sense" sprinkled among the more hardline guff has been regularly used for political/religious/social purposes. The hard left do it, the hard right do it, the feminists do it, the anti feminists do it. It sweetens the pill and it's how you make nonsense more palatable.

I agree common sense is subjective so I’ll ask you for your subjective opinion. Do you think drawing a link between body image and eating disorders is a sign of an even slightly radical feminist? Could you imagine a therapist who wasn’t particularly feminist drawing a similar link?

This is pretty basic stuff really. It's why psychologists and psychiatrists are trained by every serious accredited professional body on the planet to be as objective as possible and to avoid bringing their own personal hobby horses to bear in the treatment of the vulnerable. And if they don't they get called on it. And as givyjoe noted she herself points this person out as a big influence in her life and thinking

Sure a therapist would be expected to be relatively objective. But every single therapist (apart from the ones who just listen and reframe your thoughts back to you as questions) will bring some worldview to any advice they give. It would only really be a problem if it was radical. Drawing a link between body image and eating disorders is not radical. Do you disagree? Would you complain if a non feminist was drawing that link? Would you think that therapist unethical?

givyjoe

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because she believes the therapist is a strong feminist obviously.

None of us know or ever will know the form the therapy took. Here’s a very plausible alternative:

Therapist draws a link between body image and eating disorder. A very neutral non controversial hypothesis.

LON separately to the therapy believes body image concerns are the domain of feminists and thus describes her therapist as a feminist.

That doesn’t mean the therapist indoctrinated her into the cult of feminism.

Not really plausible If you literally read what lon herself wrote, which wibbs literally quote. As for being indoctrinated, you only need browse through her toxic views of and towards men.

Boom_Bap

Hector Savage wrote: »

And why does LON defend Tupac Shakur ? He was convicted of sexual assault!

LLMMLL would you like to answer that maybe? - since I suspect you are LON!

This chestnut again. His case was then reviewed and he was released from prison and charges reduced from sexual assault to groping or something like that. My understanding is that they couldn't remove all charges so have to reduce to something to cover time served.

Relikk

Boom_Bap wrote: »

This chestnut again. His case was then reviewed and he was released from prison and charges reduced from sexual assault to groping or something like that. My understanding is that they couldn't remove all charges so have to reduce to something to cover time served.

Who cares, chap was a scumbag anyway. He shouldn't ever be held up as some paragon of virtue or labelled with current babble like "woke bae".

Boom_Bap

Relikk wrote: »

Who cares, chap was a scumbag anyway. He shouldn't ever be held up as some paragon of virtue or labelled with current babble like "woke bae".

Not saying that he should be, but he's always called a rapist which annoys me because the charges were dropped against him. Just ironing out that little thing that people care to ignore.