Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

Peter Denham

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How clever of you.

I remember a bloke in the next town up for me who punched a guy who hit his head on a kerb and died. He went to prison.

Explain the nuances to that guy in prison. I’m sure he’d love to hear about how trivial it all is.

But I bet he actually would have loved to have knows about what could get you into trouble with the law before he killed someone by accident.

You're claiming that if he was better educated on violence he never would have punched someone ?

It's actually very naive that you believe we can eradicate bad human behaviour through childhood classes. You assume that through education people will become good people.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suppose it actually needs to be said that porn is acting. But unwittingly you’ve touched on an interesting point about the influence of porn.

I don’t suppose you realised the importance of the point but I thank you for bringing it up.

Haha..

Haha..

Yes..I appreciated the point..in light of that do you perhaps think consent classes might be a fairly simplistic answer to the issues around this?..

And shur LON is all for porn..once its feminist porn..(which I can only imagine is fat purple haired woman on fat purple haired woman with some lad in a gimp mask on a leash or something instructed to penetrate them on occasion..)

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

And shur LON is all for porn..once its feminist porn..(which I can only imagine is fat purple haired woman on fat purple haired woman with some lad in a gimp mask on a leash or something instructed to penetrate them on occasion..)

I'm never watching Pornhub ever again just in case that's on there!

Maxpfizer

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How clever of you.

I remember a bloke in the next town up for me who punched a guy who hit his head on a kerb and died. He went to prison.

Explain the nuances to that guy in prison. I’m sure he’d love to hear about how trivial it all is.

But I bet he actually would have loved to have knows about what could get you into trouble with the law before he killed someone by accident.

Did he go to prison for murder? I would think something like that would come under involuntary manslaughter, no?

Yeah_Right

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Did he go to prison for murder? I would think something like that would come under involuntary manslaughter, no?

I was thinking the same thing. I don't think the poster will understand that though. He can't see the difference between consent classes for both genders and some "journalist" saying that boys need to be taught not to rape.

Maxpfizer

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm 95% sure you will find the phrase "We need to teach our young men (or boys) not to rape"

To be fair to Louise O'Neill, and others who think this way, it's probably the case that this belief is simply a logical extension of the basic idea that people are a kind of blank slate.

If she is that much into Feminism then one of the basic principles is that certain things are observable and explainable social constructs rather than these kind of vague and difficult to understand impulses.

If you fundamentally believe that these blank slate humans can be controlled and manipulated to be a specific way then it's kind of logical that you would believe that the solution to any given societal problem is as simple as conditioning people not to be that way.

You would have to imagine that any sensible consent class would focus mostly on the legal aspects of sex. You know, teach kids how to be safe and how to obey the law and show them that there is no grey area between "you can be prosecuted for this but not for that". Then build on that with more moral arguments based on treating with each other with respect etc.

That's not what seems to be happening though. It's more of a focus on "men" or "masculinity" as some kind of inherent evil that needs to be moulded and manipulated.

That's the core belief. People can be socialized to be a specific way because they are born as blank slates. You want to end rape culture? The solution is simple. Just teach men not to rape.

In practice, it's a futile exercise. It feels good to push the idea though. A dash of outrage, a little pinch of bullying. Very gratifying, I'm sure.

If it were possible to simply teach humans not to do X then we would have solved pretty much all of the worlds problems 10s of thousands of years ago.

The oldest recorded law system that we know about comes from Mesopotamia circa 2300 BC. So over 4,000 years ago. We've had concepts such as monetary compensation for physical injuries caused to others for thousands of years. We also had the concept of capital crimes going back AT LEAST that far. And what crimes were punishable by death? Adultery. Robbery. Murder. Rape.

Humans from FOUR THOUSAND years ago were literally saying "rape is one of the worst imaginable crimes and if you rape someone we will kill you" but clowns in 2018 still think "you know, we just need to teach men that rape isn't OK".

Feisar

Do we really need consent classes? I don't know how I made it through my teens and twenties without one of these classes to teach me some very basic right from wrong!

Also, rape culture? There isn't one, unless one means it in the same context as murder culture, or burgalry culture. No culture involved, bad people do bad things.

Feisar

Feisar wrote: »

Do we really need consent classes? I don't know how I made it through my teens and twenties without one of these classes to teach me some very basic right from wrong!

Also, rape culture? There isn't one, unless one means it in the same context as murder culture, or burgalry culture. No culture involved, bad people do bad things.

I think the Paddy Jackson case would have never happened if people were more informed. Paddy would have been sure of consent and the complainant would have made him fully aware she wasn't consenting. Works both ways. Maybe it's wishful thinking that updating sex education would solve this problem. If you think acknowledging consent is awkward and kills the mood, we seem to have adapted condoms with no problems.

terryduff12

Feisar wrote: »

Do we really need consent classes? I don't know how I made it through my teens and twenties without one of these classes to teach me some very basic right from wrong!

Also, rape culture? There isn't one, unless one means it in the same context as murder culture, or burgalry culture. No culture involved, bad people do bad things.

I remember some comedian saying why do we need consent classes its not like there is classes for men to learn how to rape women. You can have all the consent classes you want but you can also have someone tell a lie. There is after all women in prisons they are not all saints.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Or gives consent, but later regrets doing so, or forgets that they did so, and in the cold light of day presumes that they wouldnt have.

I must have missed that part of the trial

terryduff12

http://www.thejournal.ie/attempted-murder-drumcondra-4291975-Oct2018/

#ibelieveher

PlaneSpeeking

Deleted User wrote: »

I must have missed that part of the trial

Look up the witness testimony from her friend Dara.

razorblunt

terryduff12 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/attempted-murder-drumcondra-4291975-Oct2018/

#ibelieveher

What has that got to do with anything?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Look up the witness testimony from her friend Dara.

Caveat. She was not her friend, yer one Dara was there with her own friends, they didn't know that girl. The girl at the center of this called them sluts (I think) in texts to friends the next day.

The Rape of Lucretia

That was the core of the whole trial. And the element she couldnt satisfy thw jury on, so they dismissed the case.
Potential rape in cases of hazy memory and grog are inherently problematic.

PlaneSpeeking

razorblunt wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything?



Caveat. She was not her friend, yer one Dara was there with her own friends, they didn't know that girl. The girl at the center of this called them sluts (I think) in texts to friends the next day.

TBH if I'd seen someone having an enthusiastic threesome with two of our rugby team I imagine that would be one of the words used also!

givyjoe

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

TBH if I'd seen someone having an enthusiastic threesome with two of our rugby team I imagine that would be one of the words used also!

Except it was the other way around, the girl who was supposedly degraded by being called a slut in text messages, was herself referring to the witness (and her friends) as being slutty.

razorblunt

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

TBH if I'd seen someone having an enthusiastic threesome with two of our rugby team I imagine that would be one of the words used also!

No, no, the girl herself called yer one Dara and Dara's friends sluts.

PlaneSpeeking

razorblunt wrote: »

No, no, the girl herself called yer one Dara and Dara's friends sluts.

Ah! All through her tears was it ?

I had to leave work early the day, of the verdict, the feminist vitriol was palpable.

Two colleagues would have strung up PJ had they seen him. Terrifying.

gizmo555

Maxpfizer wrote: »

Humans from FOUR THOUSAND years ago were literally saying "rape is one of the worst imaginable crimes and if you rape someone we will kill you" but clowns in 2018 still think "you know, we just need to teach men that rape isn't OK".

Maybe rape cannot be eliminated, but maybe some men need also to have clarified to them what rape is.

I was on a flight to Spain last month and sitting on the plane waiting for it to start to taxi to the runway, I happened to see on the phone of a young man in his 20s sitting next to me a text message he'd just received which read "It's not rape if you enjoy it!"

I wondered what experience the woman had and how she "enjoyed" it ...

Woke Hogan

gizmo555 wrote: »

Maybe rape cannot be eliminated, but maybe some men need also to have clarified to them what rape is.

I was on a flight to Spain last month and sitting on the plane waiting for it to start to taxi to the runway, I happened to see on the phone of a young man in his 20s sitting next to me a text message he'd just received which read "It's not rape if you enjoy it!"

I wondered what experience the woman had and how she "enjoyed" it ...

Are you insinuating that in your eyes this man is a rapist or rape apologist because of a tasteless joke in a private text he received from a friend? Is this how things have gone? People send each other shocking jokes like that all the time. You shouldn't have been reading his phone.

PlaneSpeeking

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Are you insinuating that in your eyes this man is a rapist or rape apologist because of a tasteless joke in a private text he received from a friend? Is this how things have gone? People send each other shocking jokes like that all the time. You shouldn't have been reading his phone.

I have used the phrase "given a chance he'd be roofied, tied up and raped senselessly" about Jamie Dornan.

Tasteless possibly but no way would anyone take it seriously.

The mates I WhatsApp'd it to thought it was hilarious. I'd likely be fired if I said it in work, insane. I'm never going to do it and rape is wrong ffs.

BoneIdol

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I have used the phrase "given a chance he'd be roofied, tied up and raped senselessly" about Jamie Dornan.

Tasteless possibly but no way would anyone take it seriously.

The mates I WhatsApp'd it to thought it was hilarious. I'd likely be fired if I said it in work, insane. I'm never going to do it and rape is wrong ffs.

Jesus christ. Insane is right.

Woke Hogan

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I have used the phrase "given a chance he'd be roofied, tied up and raped senselessly" about Jamie Dornan.

Tasteless possibly but no way would anyone take it seriously.

The mates I WhatsApp'd it to thought it was hilarious. I'd likely be fired if I said it in work, insane. I'm never going to do it and rape is wrong ffs.

Yeah that's a real rib tickler.

Anyway, it's insane to think that people can't even send other jokes privately without fear of being judged for holding the same ethos as the jokes. What happened to context and irony? What a bland, colourless world some people live in.

PlaneSpeeking

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Yeah that's a real rib tickler.

Anyway, it's insane to think that people can't even send other jokes privately without fear of being judged for holding the same ethos as the jokes. What happened to context and irony? What a bland, colourless world some people live in.

The joke was basically that it's the only way I'd have a remote shot tbh. Not just him! Very self deprecating.

Considering The Two Ronnies last week was classed as "outdated, tired, sexist and racist" clearly humour has to be ran by a panel before it can be used.

Woke Hogan

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

The joke was basically that it's the only way I'd have a remote shot tbh. Not just him! Very self deprecating.

Considering The Two Ronnies last week was classed as "outdated, tired, sexist and racist" clearly humour has to be ran by a panel before it can be used.

Thanks for explaining.

I have never seen The Two Ronnies but considering that they stopped making it thirty years ago, I have no doubt that some of it would be "outdated, tired, sexist and racist" by today's standards.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that but there's also nothing wrong with people acknowledging that it was made in a different time when peoples attitudes and behaviour were different, and that the creators can't be judged by today's standards for everything they wrote back then.

gizmo555

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Are you insinuating that in your eyes this man is a rapist or rape apologist because of a tasteless joke in a private text he received from a friend? Is this how things have gone? People send each other shocking jokes like that all the time. You shouldn't have been reading his phone.

Firstly, I didn't intentionally read it, he was sitting right beside me and I happened to glance at it as I looked across the aisle.

Secondly, how do you know he was joking? It seems just as likely to me it was a rationalisation of something that had gone a bit too far.

For what it's worth, I mentioned it to some of my women relatives and I can assure you not one of them was amused by it.

razorblunt

gizmo555 wrote: »

Maybe rape cannot be eliminated, but maybe some men need also to have clarified to them what rape is.

I was on a flight to Spain last month and sitting on the plane waiting for it to start to taxi to the runway, I happened to see on the phone of a young man in his 20s sitting next to me a text message he'd just received which read "It's not rape if you enjoy it!"

I wondered what experience the woman had and how she "enjoyed" it ...

What if it was sent to him ... by a girl?
GASP

Woke Hogan

gizmo555 wrote: »

Firstly, I didn't intentionally read it, he was sitting right beside me and I happened to glance at it as I looked across the aisle.

Secondly, how do you know he was joking? It seems just as likely to me it was a rationalisation of something that had gone a bit too far.

For what it's worth, I mentioned it to some of my women relatives and I can assure you not one of them was amused by it.

Of course you intentionally read it, you can't accidentally read someone's phone from over their shoulder. You were snooping into a stranger's private text conversations.

I presume he was joking because it's an old joke I've heard before and rapists by and large don't go around bragging about raping people.

I don't find it particularly amusing either but that doesn't mean he's a rapist or rape apologist.

gizmo555

Woke Hogan wrote: »

Of course you intentionally read it, you can't accidentally read someone's phone from over their shoulder. You were snooping into a stranger's private text conversations.

I presume he was joking because it's an old joke I've heard before and rapists by and large don't go around bragging about raping people.

I don't find it particularly amusing either but that doesn't mean he's a rapist or rape apologist.

He was sitting six inches from me with his phone right in front of me. I was not "looking over his shoulder".

And, we'll have to agree to differ, but in my view anyone who thinks that's an acceptable joke is a rape apologist.