Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

RabbleRouser2k

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasnt boredom, it was the face of a woman getting absolutely owned by facts by a woman that knows the actual law

I think as soon as she hear the words 'evidence' she probably wanted to shout 'internalised misogyny' at her.

Ri_Nollaig

LLMMLL wrote: »

It's not something that can be proved. Even if there was a peer reviewed paper that found it to be true, the response would be "men underreport".

If you're genuinely curious ask your female friends and then ask your male friends.

Can you finally see the problem with your line of thinking?
How you are happy to cherry pick where you like to and not like to generalise/make assumptions?
I am not doubting in your particular circle of friends etc what you believe to be true is true but that does not translate to the entire population which is what you are applying it to. Believe it or not I can give you plenty of counter examples, as it turns out, a lot of people are assholes, nothing new there. But my examples would be equally as worthless.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I watched "Asking For It" again after all this ****e with the Paddy Jackson trial and this scene stuck out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaO76M81c_c

I'm guessing that barrister deals with kids a good bit with the way she was explaining things and managing reactions there.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

That doesn't really apply to me (been groped twice by women), all my friends who are open about these things who have low levels of harassment by women, and the guys who come onto threads about harassment of women by men with their own experiences of being harassed by women.

I've been groped, stalked, and harassed by females in different countries. I've had female parents of my students harass me about having an affair with them, and I've had adult female students stalk me. [I should add I've also been stalked and had male students harass me 'romantically']

I don't talk about it much because somehow (and this is incredibly bemusing) being groped or harassed by a woman is seen as a positive and so, couldn't be true... That I might be making it up just to score points. I actually had that experience with a mixed group of male/female friends when talking about our jobs. Women come on to you while you were a teacher? No way! that only happens in the movies.

These men would have no reason to lie or minimize their own experiences as the whole point of them posting is to claim they experience similar harassment to women.

Then, your friends are very lucky. I can think of dozens of reasons not to talk about these things from not being believed right through to an investigation taking place (but there being no actual positive result).

garbo speaks

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I don't mind him myself but to the left he is Hitler reincarnated.

That's because he advocates thought and reason, something the left cannot understand.

Zulu

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Can you finally see the problem with your line of thinking?.

...but, but, but, random men on the internet.....

LLMMLL

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Can you finally see the problem with your line of thinking?
How you are happy to cherry pick where you like to and not like to generalise/make assumptions?
I am not doubting in your particular circle of friends etc what you believe to be true is true but that does not translate to the entire population which is what you are applying it to. Believe it or not I can give you plenty of counter examples, as it turns out, a lot of people are assholes, nothing new there. But my examples would be equally as worthless.

It's not worthless at all. I'm sure you can give examples of female harassment of men. But talk to both your male and female friends about the level of daily harassment they face and come back and tell me the levels are even vaguely close.

It's not cherry picking when every woman you know has faced regular harassment. Every man you know has either faced none or isolated incidents, majority of men trying to claim they face equal harassment can only point to isolated incidents in their lifetime, men you've asked to ask women about their harrasment have been shocked when they heard the experiences of their girlfriends, sisters etc.

It's just so obviously pervasive and as I said, if I provided a study to back it up, it would be said that men underreport so has no validity. So tell me, how can I back up my point? What would actually convince you?

LLMMLL

Zulu wrote: »

...but, but, but, random men on the internet.....

They're not random. I'm being kind in saying these men are trying to claim they face equal harassment. In reality they're trying to say "I face equal harassment (even though I clearly don't) so stop talking about this". It's not random and if they faced equal harassment they'd be able to give countless examples like ALL women can. Usually I'd qualify most women, or the majority of women, or women in general, or leave it unsaid but understood that I'm not referring to all women. But in this case it is all women.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've been groped, stalked, and harassed by females in different countries. I've had female parents of my students harass me about having an affair with them, and I've had adult female students stalk me. [I should add I've also been stalked and had male students harass me 'romantically']

I don't talk about it much because somehow (and this is incredibly bemusing) being groped or harassed by a woman is seen as a positive and so, couldn't be true... That I might be making it up just to score points. I actually had that experience with a mixed group of male/female friends when talking about our jobs. Women come on to you while you were a teacher? No way! that only happens in the movies.



Then, your friends are very lucky. I can think of dozens of reasons not to talk about these things from not being believed right through to an investigation taking place (but there being no actual positive result).

How many incidents of harassment have you faced in the last 6 months?

the_pen_turner

it would be inteesting to hear what both sides consider harassment before we look at the numbers.
i would bet that men wouldnt be as negative towards a pinch or bum squeeze as women . a woman rubbing herself up against a man would get a better reception than a man doing it to a woman.
obviouslty a huge generalisation but i would like to that break down before the numbers make any sence

Captain Obvious

Sweetemotion wrote: »

LON is nothing but a hashtag leech.

You say that but there are nearly 2400 posts here in a thread about her so she obviously has some celebrity value.

LLMMLL

I've just checked and found at least 3 peer reviewed studies that either asked both men and women about sexual harassment they faced or went on reports in the workplace of both men and women. They all conclusively supported what I said, but I'm guessing peer reviewed studies won't be acceptable evidence either. So no peer reviewed studies allowed, no personal experience allowed, no asking others about their experiences allowed as that's still personal experience.............. Basically proof is being demanded but no evidence allowed. Makes sense.

Zulu

LLMMLL wrote: »

How many incidents of harassment have you faced in the last 6 months?

Is harassment the same a "Rape Culture"? Because thats what this was all about before the rabbit hole.

Will I Am Not

the_pen_turner wrote: »

it would be inteesting to hear what both sides consider harassment before we look at the numbers.

Impossible to know.

“OMG that totally hot guy is checking me out” = swoon
“Eeww that ugly pig is undressing me with his eyes” = harassment?

deaddonkey15

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've just checked and found at least 3 peer reviewed studies that either asked both men and women about sexual harassment they faced or went on reports in the workplace of both men and women. They all conclusively supported what I said, but I'm guessing peer reviewed studies won't be acceptable evidence either. So no peer reviewed studies allowed, no personal experience allowed, no asking others about their experiences allowed as that's still personal experience.............. Basically proof is being demanded but no evidence allowed. Makes sense.

You're the one that brought up this proof nonsense in an obvious effort to just undermine and dismiss what another poster said.

py2006

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've just checked and found at least 3 peer reviewed studies that either asked both men and women about sexual harassment they faced or went on reports in the workplace of both men and women. They all conclusively supported what I said, but I'm guessing peer reviewed studies won't be acceptable evidence either. So no peer reviewed studies allowed, no personal experience allowed, no asking others about their experiences allowed as that's still personal experience.............. Basically proof is being demanded but no evidence allowed. Makes sense.

Please share these studies.

Also, men generally don't care or form a group of mutually offended men because a woman says nice arse or whatever.

Often men don't even know that technically a victim or harassment. I know I didn't untill it was pointed out to me.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

Its not cherry picking when every woman you know has faced regular harassment. Every man you know has either faced none or isolated incidents, majority of men trying to claim they face equal harassment can only point to isolated incidents in their lifetime, men you've asked to ask women about their harrasment have been shocked when they heard the experiences of their girlfriends, sisters etc.

Every woman I know has faced regular harassment? Have they? Nah, not my sister, not my Mam, not my gf and not my ex gf before her. However both my brothers, a couple of my mates and even myself have gotten random slaps off drunken scumbags on nights out. That probably doesn’t matter though.

LLMMLL

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You're the one that brought up this proof nonsense in an obvious effort to just undermine and dismiss what another poster said.

When the evidence I've given has been constantly dismissed then clearly people are looking for some kind of proof, just as someone criticised LON for not being able to "prove" rape culture.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Every woman I know has faced regular harassment? Have they? Nah, not my sister, not my Mam, not my gf and not my ex gf before her. However both my brothers, a couple of my mates and even myself have gotten random slaps off drunken scumbags on nights out. That probably doesn’t matter though.

Did you actually ask them? With some examples? I've asked some women and they denied that they'd been harassed. I then said "so you've never been groped, got an angry reaction to a polite rejection, been followed on the street etc. ". Every single one of them went "oh yeah that happens all the time". They're just so used to it it becomes normalized.

o1s1n

Omackeral wrote: »

Every woman I know has faced regular harassment? Have they? Nah, not my sister, not my Mam, not my gf and not my ex gf before her. .

Seriously? They must be really lucky so. I've pretty much seen all the females in my family and my girlfriends/friends etc being harassed on nights out.

Must just be better looking...

Zulu

o1s1n wrote: »

I've pretty much seen all the females in my family and my girlfriends/friends etc being harassed on nights out.

...and do you draw from that that we are living in a "Rape Culture" here in Ireland?

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've just checked and found at least 3 peer reviewed studies that either asked both men and women about sexual harassment they faced or went on reports in the workplace of both men and women. They all conclusively supported what I said, but I'm guessing peer reviewed studies won't be acceptable evidence either.

Was this one of them?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/

Further discussion on it here.

Sexual Victimization by Women Is More Common Than Previously Known

In 2014, we published a study on the sexual victimization of men, finding that men were much more likely to be victims of sexual abuse than was thought. To understand who was committing the abuse, we next analyzed four surveys conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to glean an overall picture of how frequently women were committing sexual victimization.

The results were surprising. For example, the CDC’s nationally representative data revealed that over one year, men and women were equally likely to experience nonconsensual sex, and most male victims reported female perpetrators. Over their lifetime, 79 percent of men who were “made to penetrate” someone else (a form of rape, in the view of most researchers) reported female perpetrators. Likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted sexual contact had female perpetrators.

We also pooled four years of the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) data and found that 35 percent of male victims who experienced rape or sexual assault reported at least one female perpetrator. Among those who were raped or sexually assaulted by a woman, 58 percent of male victims and 41 percent of female victims reported that the incident involved a violent attack, meaning the female perpetrator hit, knocked down or otherwise attacked the victim, many of whom reported injuries.

Also surprisingly, women inmates are more likely to be abused by other inmates than are male inmates, disrupting the long held view that sexual violence in prison is mainly about men assaulting men. In juvenile corrections facilities, female staff are also a much more significant threat than male staff; more than nine in ten juveniles who reported staff sexual victimization were abused by a woman.

Our findings might be critically viewed as an effort to upend a women’s rights agenda that focuses on the sexual threat posed by men. To the contrary, we argue that male-perpetrated sexual victimization remains a chronic problem, from the schoolyard to the White House. In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men. In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.

Lollipops23

Omackeral wrote: »

Every woman I know has faced regular harassment? Have they? Nah, not my sister, not my Mam, not my gf and not my ex gf before her. However both my brothers, a couple of my mates and even myself have gotten random slaps off drunken scumbags on nights out. That probably doesn’t matter though.

I sorely doubt that's true.

Every. Single. Female I know has been a victim at some level. I have- the first time I was catcalled I was 14 years old and in my school uniform.

I've been groped. I've been forced into stuff that I'd rather not get into right now.

And I haven't been particularly unfortunate either.

cantdecide

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I sorely doubt that's true.

Every. Single. Female I know has been a victim at some level. I have- the first time I was catcalled I was 14 years old and in my school uniform.

I've been groped. I've been forced into stuff that I'd rather not get into right now.

And I haven't been particularly unfortunate either.

I've been groped. I've been intimidated and attacked (not any time recently). I've been harassed in the street and at concerts. I've had unwanted advances from both women and men. I've had inappropriate remarks and banter at inappropriate times (including at work). The only thing I've been a victim of is jerkish behaviour.

No one is suggesting I make the personal political. No one is using institutional crusades to create hysteria and ultimately nobody cares about my experience nor should they... up until a crime is committed. In the meantime, I'm just going to carry on living my life doing my best to avoid the jerks.

Maybe you should ask the men in your life what they're experience is with the jerks of this world. It might be interesting.

The_Kew_Tour

Every Male and Female I know have been groped on night out.

Maybe we are all Rapists, both sexes

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Was this one of them?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/

Further discussion on it here.

So that summarized 5 reports.

3 were around inmates and juveniles.

Of the remaining 2, 1 was based on crime statistics and 1 based on interviews.

I chose the 1 based on interviews and read the summary of the actual report (the whole thing was 124 pages long).

This jumped out at me:Number and Sex of Perpetrators
• Across all types of violence, the
majority of both female and male victims reported experiencing violence from one perpetrator.
• Across all types of violence,
the majority of female victims reported that their perpetrators were male.
• Male rape victims and male victims of non-contact unwanted sexual experiences reported predominantly male perpetrators. Nearly half of stalking victimizations against males were also perpetrated
by males. Perpetrators of other forms of violence against males were mostly female.

The "other forms of violence" mentioned refers to non-sexual violence by the way.

So it seems to me that this report clearly shows that men are the major committers of these sexual acts.

Obviously this report doesn't deal with workplace harassment, street harassment, public transport harrrassment, harassment among friends, but considering most perpetrators of stalking are men I don't see any reason to believe that men are being harassed by women equally in any setting.

Omackeral

o1s1n wrote: »

Seriously? They must be really lucky so. I've pretty much seen all the females in my family and my girlfriends/friends etc being harassed on nights out.

Yes seriously. The claim was they are regularly harassed. I’ve been out with my sister and my gf and other females friends and I’ve yet to see them been harassed. If it’s so regular, I might have seen it I thought? They’ve had fellas hitting on them alright but that’s about it. The word “no” or showing no interest was always enough to ward them off. Trying to hook up with someone on a night out is not harassment, it’s how plenty of people met their other half.

I suppose it’s how regular you consider regular to be and what you think constitutes harassment.

DEFTLEFTHAND

py2006 wrote: »

Please share these studies.

Also, men generally don't care or form a group of mutually offended men because a woman says nice arse or whatever.

Often men don't even know that technically a victim or harassment. I know I didn't untill it was pointed out to me.

That's interesting actually. In general terms I find that men don't take offence to being objectified or touched up by a random woman.

Would even be seen as a badge of honour by some.

Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You say that but there are nearly 2400 posts here in a thread about her so she obviously has some celebrity value.[

A very simplified outlook you have there.

The majority of people see her as an alarming representative of this new 'liberal' society created by weaklings and spoilt brats that has somehow carved a career as a national newspaper journalist out for herself and as a result these people strongly object to this on the basis that media integrity is going down the toilet.

Omackeral

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I sorely doubt that's true.

Couldn’t give a fcuk of what you think I say is true or not. Ive seen more young men beaten to bits on nights out than i have women. I’d say it’s more dangerous for a young male to head out on a night in Dublin City than it is for a girl. Not trying to make a competition of it by any stretch, just saying in my own experience and shared experience with people of both sexes.

Let me just say this, anybody putting their hands on anyone else unwanted or uninvited is a scumbag.

Girls would receive a lot more attention from the opposite sex but that doesn’t always warrant the tag harassment. A lot of these fembots would have you think that even looking at someone is sexual harassment.