Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Couldn’t give a fcuk of what you think I say is true or not. Ive seen more young men beaten to bits on nights out than i have women. I’d say it’s more dangerous for a young male to head out on a night in Dublin City than it is for a girl. Not trying to make a competition of it by any stretch, just saying in my own experience and shared experience with people of both sexes.

Let me just say this, anybody putting their hands on anyone else unwanted or uninvited is a scumbag.

Girls would receive a lot more attention from the opposite sex but that doesn’t always warrant the tag harassment. A lot of these fembots would have you think that even looking at someone is sexual harassment.

Classic deflection. Were specifically discussing sexual harassment. Physical violence isn't relevant to this thread at all.

retro:electro

LLMMLL wrote: »

Did you actually ask them? With some examples? I've asked some women and they denied that they'd been harassed. I then said "so you've never been groped, got an angry reaction to a polite rejection, been followed on the street etc. ". Every single one of them went "oh yeah that happens all the time". They're just so used to it it becomes normalized.

I can’t say this is the case for me either. I must lead a very boring life altogether. I go to work, don’t get flashed on the way, don’t get cat called or ass grabbed. I go for lunch with my colleagues, all perfectly lovely people, nobody tries to show anyone any penises. No degrading comments. I’m pretty much ignored on transport home and it’s how I like it, as people are busy getting on with life. Nobody tries to follow me home. I can safely say I’ve had about 3 pretty uncomfortable experiences with males which I file under the category of such is life. For the most part I find men to be perfectly lovely, pleasant and not in any way out to harm you- but maybe I’m just really ugly. Who knows. This isn’t me dismissing the accounts of other women by the way- just giving my 2cents that not every woman’s life is an obstacle of daily harassment.

On the other hand my brother has been glassed by an ex to the extent he nearly lost his eye and my boyfriend has been punched in the face by a girl on a night out.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

Classic deflection. Were specifically discussing sexual harassment. Physical violence isn't relevant to this thread at all.

It’s not classic anything. And are you actually serious?!! The thread is about Louise O Neill if you want to get pedantic/high and mighty. It evolved into sexual harassment. From there it evolved into harrassment on nights out. I’m merely adding another point regarding general safety to that point. Welcome to the world of online forums

Omackeral

retro:electro wrote: »

On the other hand my brother has been glassed by an ex to the extent he nearly lost his eye and my boyfriend has been punched in the face by a girl on a night out.

Dis is about sexual violence u classic deflector

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

It’s not classic anything. And are you actually serious?!! The thread is about Louise O Neill if you want to get pedantic/high and mighty. It evolved into sexual harassment. From there it evolved into harrassment on nights out. I’m merely adding another point regarding general safety to that point. Welcome to the world of online forums

And I'm just pointing out your point about non sexual violence has nothing to do with women's experiences of sexual violence or harassment. You are also welcome to the world of forums.

Will I Am Not

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I'm just pointing out your point about non sexual violence has nothing to do with women's experiences of sexual violence or harassment. You are also welcome to the world of forums.

How about the ladies can play the sexual assault card and the gentlemen can play the physical assault card and we can call it even in the ‘who are the biggest victims’ section of gender wars.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

How many incidents of harassment have you faced in the last 6 months?

Well... here's the thing. What constitutes harassment?

When it comes to examples of what harassment entails (towards women) it covers pretty much every social interaction unless she's welcoming of it.

When it comes to men, the list is considerably shorter. Oh, there will be many excuses for it though. Men intimidate women by their physical size. Or any number of other reasons. But it doesn't account for how the man might feel.

How many times have I felt harassed by women in the last 6 months? Hmm.. where I felt emotionally uncomfortable? I honestly don't know, because I didn't feel it was important to remember. I can recall about a dozen times in the last two months. Vaguely.

And that's the point in a way. I asked your question to my female friends, and got the same answer. Nothing that stood out as harassment but a few memories of vague discomfort.

On a side note, how about what I said about the social perception regarding men being harassed? You skipped over it completely to ask your own question. It would be nice to get a response to what i actually wrote before.

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

So it seems to me that this report clearly shows that men are the major committers of these sexual acts.

I think you're seeing what you want to in the research but either way, I am not necessarily arguing that men aren't. I'm attempting to retort your endorsement of the view that we live in a male on female rape culture. You seem to use the fact that women are sexually harassed 'far more' frequently as support of that but is it really that much more, or is it just that when you factor in the physical power dynamic it's considered more of societal issue when women get groped, harassed, cat called etc, than when men are.

Either way, I don't think it proves we have a rape culture, or anything close to it, no more than the fact than men violently attacking more men shows we live in a culture of acceptance with regards to that. These are things which society struggles with and it seems to me, does it's best to stop. In fact, one could argue that sexual assaults against women is far less tolerated / more frowned upon than male on male violence is. I certainly seem to see more campaigns to stop the former rather than the latter and I can't think of the last time I heard a lobby group saying something needs to be done about violence on our streets against men.

The rate of sexual assaults is absolutely a problem for society, of course it is, I would never suggest it isn't. However there are without question some vested interests in exaggerating the extent at which they occur. Statistics are often massaged to give the impression that society is dealing with an epidemic of rape and sexual harassment but tbh it's unsurprising given the amount of people whose jobs (book sales) largely depend on that narrative remaining firmly in place.

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I'm just pointing out your point about non sexual violence has nothing to do with women's experiences of sexual violence or harassment. You are also welcome to the world of forums.

LLMMLL

Will I Am Not wrote: »

How about the ladies can play the sexual assault card and the gentlemen can play the physical assault card and we can call it even in the ‘who are the biggest victims’ section of gender wars.

Or we could drop pretending that women sexually harass as much as men and try and solve the issue of sexual harassment rather than deflect.

Separately we could address the behaviour of men who physically assault other men.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've just checked and found at least 3 peer reviewed studies that either asked both men and women about sexual harassment they faced or went on reports in the workplace of both men and women. They all conclusively supported what I said, but I'm guessing peer reviewed studies won't be acceptable evidence either. So no peer reviewed studies allowed, no personal experience allowed, no asking others about their experiences allowed as that's still personal experience.............. Basically proof is being demanded but no evidence allowed. Makes sense.

I'd also like to see this research. And naturally I'll check to make sure it's not coming out of feminist academia, but if it is legit, then I can hardly object to it much.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

I think you're seeing what you want to in the research but either way, I am not necessarily arguing that men aren't. I'm attempting to retort your endorsement of the view that we live in a male on female rape culture. You seem to use the fact that women are sexually harassed 'far more' frequently as support of that but is it really that much more, or is it just that when you factor in the physical power dynamic it's considered more of societal issue when women get groped, harassed, cat called etc, than when men are.

Either way, I don't think it proves we have a rape culture, or anything close to it, no more than the fact than men violently attacking more men shows we live in a culture of acceptance with regards to that. These are things which society struggles with and it seems to me, does it's best to stop. In fact, one could argue that sexual assaults against women is far less tolerated / more frowned upon than male on male violence is. I certainly seem to see more campaigns to stop the former rather than the latter and I can't think of the last time I heard a lobby group saying something needs to be done about violence on our streets against men.

The rate of sexual assaults is absolutely a problem for society, of course it is, I would never suggest it isn't. However there are without question some vested interests in exaggerating the extent at which they occur. Statistics are often massaged to give the impression that society is dealing with an epidemic of rape and sexual harassment but tbh it's unsurprising given the amount of people whose jobs (book sales) largely depend on that narrative remaining firmly in place.

Ah here that's some great mental gymnastics. Your own report shows that men are far more responsible for sexual violence and stalking. It also shows that at least for this particular study men were just as willing to report as women were, with nearly equal numbers reporting.

This isn't a made up narrative. It's supported by personal experience, anecdotal evidence, and now a huge study (thanks for finding that by the way, the studies I found were smaller academic ones).

So what level of evidence is needed before people will accept that men harass women more than women harass men?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd also like to see this research. And naturally I'll check to make sure it's not coming out of feminist academia, but if it is legit, then I can hardly object to it much.

Check outlaw Pete's post with the study he posted. If you delve into the 5 reports that study was based on, there is one which did interviews with 74,000 households. And it was the CDC. Not a bastion of feminist academia as far as I know.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

And I'm just pointing out your point about non sexual violence has nothing to do with women's experiences of sexual violence or harassment. You are also welcome to the world of forums.

Um, that doesn't make much sense since a lot of the objections regarding harassment of women comes down to a mans physical size, presence or the fear of violence by the male. It's connected with a sexual perspective because apparently males are controlled by our penis, so everything is conveniently connected to something sexual.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Check outlaw Pete's post with the study he posted. If you delve into the 5 reports that study was based on, there is one which did interviews with 74,000 households. And it was the CDC. Not a bastion of feminist academia as far as I know.

Um, Pete posted that. Got that. You stated three peer research papers that you had read. So... his contribution was one of them?

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Um, that doesn't make much sense since a lot of the objections regarding harassment of women comes down to a mans physical size, presence or the fear of violence by the male. It's connected with a sexual perspective because apparently males are controlled by our penis, so everything is conveniently connected to something sexual.

I've never said anything of the sort so don't think it's me you're arguing with. Sexual harassment and violence by men against men are two completely separate issues. Unless you think groping, catcalling, stalkin are similar to getting into a bar fight.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Um, Pete posted that. Got that. You stated three peer research papers that you had read. So... his contribution was one of them?

Do you have an issue with that CDC report?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

I've never said anything of the sort so don't think it's me you're arguing with. Sexual harassment and violence by men against men are two completely separate issues. Unless you think groping, catcalling, stalkin are similar to getting into a bar fight.

You missed my point completely.

Nevermind.

Outlaw Pete

retro:electro wrote: »

On the other hand my brother has been glassed by an ex to the extent he nearly lost his eye and my boyfriend has been punched in the face by a girl on a night out.

Seen quite a few suspended sentences handed down for that recently, never understand how glassing someone is not an automatic jail term.

All the following got suspended sentences:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-who-glassed-man-in-late-night-row-over-jackets-avoids-jail-36611971.html
http://metro.co.uk/2018/03/16/woman-spared-jail-glassed-man-turning-bar-7392052/
http://www.thejournal.ie/woman-avoids-prison-for-face-glass-attack-3327773-Apr2017/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5380645/Mother-43-glassed-boyfriend-spared-jail.html
http://metro.co.uk/2017/12/12/model-glassed-woman-face-denied-entry-vip-area-7153887/

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You missed my point completely.

Nevermind.

Pretty sure I got your point.

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

So what level of evidence is needed before people will accept that men harass women more than women harass men?

It's not a competition.

Again, even if you're right (which again I am not necessarily arguing - perhaps read my post again) that's still not proof that we live in a rape culture.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Do you have an issue with that CDC report?

I have an issue with you hedging on research you claim proves your points. You stated there were multiple papers to support you. The report by the CDC is just one, and one contributed by another poster.

I'm going through the report now.

Edit: You might find this one interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
Admittedly it's only talking about violence. Non-sexual.

LLMMLL

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

It's not a competition.

Again, even if you're right (which again I am not necessarily arguing - perhaps read my post again) that's still not proof that we live in a rape culture.

As I've said rape culture is the kind of social theory which is unprovable. The best we can do is provide arguments towards it and support with evidence.

So if someone says "rape culture is blah blah blah, here are the kind of behavioura I would expect to see in a rape culture" they can use evidence to show these behaviours occur. But if you're fundamentally against the idea of rape culture then that evidence and those behaviours are not going to convince you.

That's actually fine. I've no issue with you not believing in rape culture. I may argue against you but I don't expect you to agree. I do have an issue with people thinking that LON or anyone else can or should "prove" rape culture.

I didn't make this up by the way, a poster literally criticised her for not proving it.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

That's actually fine. I've no issue with you not believing in rape culture. I may argue against you but I don't expect you to agree. I do have an issue with people thinking that LON or anyone else can or should "prove" rape culture.
.

Well, here's the thing. India has a rape culture (although it's under the spotlight now). Japan used to have a serious rape culture. Many of the M.Eastern countries have cultures which could be selectively called rape cultures. It's pretty obvious what a rape culture is. It's a culture that seeks to protect and excuse the behavior of rapists. To give men license to rape women due to the woman's behavior (which could include anything).

Now. How does Ireland have a rape culture? Where does our society or culture encourage the marginalization of women and excusing the behavior of rapists?

You can't prove that Ireland has a rape culture, because it doesn't have one. Which you would know if you had lived any extended periods in any of the more "traditional" or "religious" countries in the East. As LON would know if she could appreciate that Irish culture does more to protect women that most other cultures out there, but that doesn't fit with her feminist ideals of victimization.

Outlaw Pete

LLMMLL wrote: »

As I've said rape culture is the kind of social theory which is unprovable. The best we can do is provide arguments towards it and support with evidence.

You're splitting hairs tbf.

When people say prove it, they just mean "provide arguments towards it and support them with evidence".

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have an issue with you hedging on research you claim proves your points. You stated there were multiple papers to support you. The report by the CDC is just one, and one contributed by another poster.

I'm going through the report now.

Edit: You might find this one interesting: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
Admittedly it's only talking about violence. Non-sexual.

I'm hedging it because I know how this works. I post the three studies. You say small sample size and biased academia. Then you ignore the CDC study because it's convenient and harp on about the three smaller studies.

The CDC proves my point perfectly. I'll stick with that.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, here's the thing. India has a rape culture (although it's under the spotlight now). Japan used to have a serious rape culture. Many of the M.Eastern countries have cultures which could be selectively called rape cultures. It's pretty obvious what a rape culture is. It's a culture that seeks to protect and excuse the behavior of rapists. To give men license to rape women due to the woman's behavior (which could include anything).

Now. How does Ireland have a rape culture? Where does our society or culture encourage the marginalization of women and excusing the behavior of rapists?

You can't prove that Ireland has a rape culture, because it doesn't have one. Which you would know if you had lived any extended periods in any of the more "traditional" or "religious" countries in the East. As LON would know if she could appreciate that Irish culture does more to protect women that most other cultures out there, but that doesn't fit with her feminist ideals of victimization.

You also can't prove/show that India has a rape culture because it's impossible. You can just shift the definition. You seem to believe India has an actual rape culture from the above post. What if someone says: there was a massive controversy in India about those rapes therefore India does not have a rape culture. No mater what evidence is given its possible to shift the goalposts.

Clearly LON thinks Ireland is a rape culture for certain reasons. Just because there are worse places doesn't mean theyre the only rape cultures.

Will I Am Not

“My claims are true even though they are unprovable but you most stop pretending your unprovable claims are in any way valid”

LLMMLL

Will I Am Not wrote: »

“My claims are true even though they are unprovable but you most stop pretending your claims are in any way valid”

I think the CDC report shows they are valid.

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

You also can't prove/show that India has a rape culture because it's impossible. You can just shift the definition. You seem to believe India has an actual rape culture from the above post. What if someone says: there was a massive controversy in India about those rapes therefore India does not have a rape culture. No mater what evidence is given its possible to shift the goalposts.

Clearly LON thinks Ireland is a rape culture for certain reasons. Just because there are worse places doesn't mean theyre the only rape cultures.

Ahh gotcha now. Rape culture is a bull****-made-up term. Which is why you can't prove it exists or doesn't exist. Ok.

As for India, I've lived there. No point going any further.