Louise O'Neill on manned mission to Mars: "Why not go to Venus?" (MOD Warning post 1)

py2006

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes you could address that separately too. What's your point?

(Guessing its: LON has never tweeted about domestic violence between lesbians. What a hypocrite!!!)

Sigh!

Until very recently domestic violence campaigns focused on straight women being victims. Starting to see a few giving men an aul mention. Can't say I have seen others.

Captain Obvious

sydthebeat wrote: »

Those shouting "rape culture" cannot just come along and try to redefine the word culture to suit their agenda without being challenged on this.
We do not have a rape culture. Its a heinous crime and society views it as such. Its an incredibly damaging misnomer to suggest Ireland has a rape culture when it clearly hasn't.

Will I Am Not wrote: »

You can’t just take a phrase like that and redefine it so you can cast the net further.
Rape culture does mean the normalising or acceptance of rape. It’s the people that are using it to say that there’s a rape culture here in Ireland that are misunderstanding the term. And I’m sure a lot of them are not genuinely misunderstanding it at all.

Nobody is redefining anything. People just broaden and narrow the concept. You guys are using a narrow view whereas your typical SJW will use a much wider view.

the_pen_turner

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Nobody is redefining anything. People just broaden and narrow the concept. You guys are using a narrow view whereas your typical SJW will use a much wider view.

this is exactly the problem

tom , dick , and harry are convicted rapists. normal people say those 3 men are scum

idiots- all men are scum.

Omackeral

Look saying culture after anything insinuates there’s a common or accepted behavior or custom among a significant base of people. Rape culture, when used to describe the state of play over here, is a stupid inaccurate term and is rightfully rejected by nearly everyone.

Ri_Nollaig

I would hazard a guess they know exactly what the phrase means and how people reaction when they hear the word 'rape'.
And that's exactly what they are playing to.

I would seriously doubt we would have a near 2,500 post thread if we were discussing the "'harassment and saying mean things' culture'" in Ireland.

Will I Am Not

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Nobody is redefining anything. People just broaden and narrow the concept.

How can you argue this logic? :pac:

Zulu

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

I would hazard a guess they know exactly what the phrase means ....

Exactly this - no better that the pro-life lobbies with their "shock" tactics.

It's sensationalist tripe created by insincere money grabbers that is sadly lapped up by some very damaged people who buy into hook line and sinker.

LLMMLL

py2006 wrote: »

Sigh!

Until very recently domestic violence campaigns focused on straight women being victims. Starting to see a few giving men an aul mention. Can't say I have seen others.

Again what's that got to do with what were discussing or this thread in general. LON'S focus is on SEXUAL issues. Her books, documentary and most of her tweets are all about SEXUAL violence, SEXUAL harrassment, consent regarding SEX, etc.

Basically ye failed big time with your "men are sexually harassed as much as women" argument and now want to shift the goalposts to "men are physically assaulted more than women".

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

Look saying culture after anything insinuates there’s a common or accepted behavior or custom among a significant base of people. Rape culture, when used to describe the state of play over here, is a stupid inaccurate term and is rightfully rejected by nearly everyone.

That's not actually true. If that was the definition we would say Ireland has a food culture (everybody eats), a clothes culture (everybody wears clothes).

People say Ireland has a drinking culture not because the majority drink but because it's deemed that drink contributes negatively to society. Now the vast majority who do drink are not problem drinkers. But the fact that drink is so pervasive is seen as enabling problem drinkers.

This pretense that you have sole ownership of how "culture" is used and everyone must subscribe to your definition is completely wrong.

Captain Obvious

Will I Am Not wrote: »

How can you argue this logic? :pac:

I'm not saying it's logical. It's just the way it is.

Ulysses Gaze

LLMMLL wrote: »

That's not actually true. If that was the definition we would say Ireland has a food culture (everybody eats), a clothes culture (everybody wears clothes).

People say Ireland has a drinking culture not because the majority drink but because it's deemed that drink contributes negatively to society. Now the vast majority who do drink are not problem drinkers. But the fact that drink is so pervasive is seen as enabling problem drinkers.

This pretense that you have sole ownership of how "culture" is used and everyone must subscribe to your definition is completely wrong.

And it does.

http://alcoholireland.ie/facts/alcohol-and-costs/


In 2013, alcohol-related discharges accounted for 160,211 bed days in public hospitals, that is 3.6% of all bed days that year; compared to 56,264 bed days or 1.7% of the total number of bed days in 1995.

€1.5 billion is the cost to the tax-payer for alcohol-related discharges from hospital. That is equal to €1 for every €10 spent on public health in 2012. This excludes the cost of emergency cases, GP visits, psychiatric admissions and alcohol treatment services.

An estimated 5,315 people on the Live Register in November 2013 had lost their job due to alcohol use.

The estimated cost of alcohol-related absenteeism was €41,290,805 in 2013.

A separate review, commissioned by the Department of Health, found that alcohol-related illness cost the healthcare system €800 million in 2013.

The report, by Dr Ann Hope, estimated that alcohol-related crime cost €686 million and alcohol-related road accidents cost €258 million.

Meanwhile, the cost of lost economic output due to alcohol was estimated to have been €641 million in 2013, with €195 million due to absenteeism; €185 million due to accidents at work, and €65 million due to premature mortality.

The report, by Dr Ann Hope, outlines the economic costs of deaths, illness and crime attributable to alcohol misuse in Ireland and estimates that the overall cost to Irish society in 2013 was €2.35 billion

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

This pretense that you have sole ownership of how "culture" is used and everyone must subscribe to your definition is completely wrong.

It’s not my definition. It’s Merriam-Webster’s. You know better though

py2006

LLMMLL wrote: »

Again what's that got to do with what were discussing or this thread in general. LON'S focus is on SEXUAL issues. Her books, documentary and most of her tweets are all about SEXUAL violence, SEXUAL harrassment, consent regarding SEX, etc.

Basically ye failed big time with your "men are sexually harassed as much as women" argument and now want to shift the goalposts to "men are physically assaulted more than women".

Mother of god! What are you like.

Omackeral

py2006 wrote: »

Mother of god! What are you like.

It’s ridiculous. Giving out about the ownership of the word culture ,whatever the hell that is, yet has no bother saying we can only discuss one issue here (ie the issue he/she wants to) on this thread. Hypocrisy at its best.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

It’s ridiculous. Giving out about the ownership of the word culture ,whatever the hell that is, yet has no bother saying we can only discuss one issue here (ie the issue he/she wants to) on this thread. Hypocrisy at its best.

You can discuss it all you want. But it's clear in the context that you're not concerned at all with DV against men, or LONs opinions on it. It's solely brought up to try and minimize that men sexually harass women far more than the other way round.

A few of you tried to claim that sexual harrassment of men by women was at the same levels as the sexual harrassment of women by men and that didn't work out great for you and then suddenly the topic of DV comes up even though it has nothing to do with what's been discussed. It's pretty obvious and I'm not stopping you. Just pointing out the obvious deflection.

LLMMLL

Omackeral wrote: »

It’s not my definition. It’s Merriam-Webster’s. You know better though

I just checked Merriam Webster and they don't define rape culture and their definition of culture doesn't include the sense in which it's used in rape/drink culture.

Will I Am Not

Anyone that thinks there is a rape culture in Ireland is deluded or pushing an agenda. It really is as simple as that.

Lu Tze

LLMMLL wrote: »

I just checked Merriam Webster and they don't define rape culture and their definition of culture doesn't include the sense in which it's used in rape/drink culture.

It's a bit like the way the kids these days use literally instead of figuratively. "I literally died from embarrassment!" Clearly not as you are telling me this story.

Words can mean anything nowadays, including it appears the complete opposite of the definition of the word being used.

freshpopcorn

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Anyone that thinks there is a rape culture in Ireland is deluded or pushing an agenda. It really is as simple as that.

The agenda would never be to sell books. Would it?

Will I Am Not

freshpopcorn wrote: »

The agenda would never be to sell books. Would it?

There’s obviously money to be made from gullible people. Look at the likes of Alex Jones...

Omackeral

LLMMLL wrote: »

I just checked Merriam Webster and they don't define rape culture

I wonder why that might be.

the_pen_turner

LLMMLL wrote: »

A few of you tried to claim that sexual harrassment of men by women was at the same levels as the sexual harrassment of women by men

Have you those figures. Nobody here is claiming that. All people are saying is that it happens a lit more than people realise. Nobody knows those stats

The_Kew_Tour

Been groped many a time by Women in Nightclubs.

Better write that book while it's hot

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

If it's a bull**** made up term then why do you use it yourself to describe India.

Actually, it's you suggesting that it's a useless term since [as you stated] it can't be proven and disproven.

Whereas I do think that there are cultures out there that have previously or continue to protect the 'rights' of men in terms of rape. Thankfully, western culture no longer does this (marriage rights), and hasn't for a very long time.

The point is that there is nothing in Irish or Western culture that seeks to protect men in terms of rape. Our laws have been changed over the last fifty years to protect women from this kind of behavior, and our culture/society doesn't approve of it either. Even within 'male' culture it's seen as being a incredibly negative type of behavior which, for example, can be seen by the treatment of rapists in prison by other inmates.

This movement by LON and other feminists to describe a rape culture in Ireland or other western countries speaks of ignorance. But then, it's hardly surprising since they seem to live in a bubble of Misandry.

Also LON lives in Ireland.

:facepalm:

Once again, point missed completely.

klaz wrote:

You can't prove that Ireland has a rape culture, because it doesn't have one. Which you would know if you had lived any extended periods in any of the more "traditional" or "religious" countries in the East. As LON would know if she could appreciate that Irish culture does more to protect women that most other cultures out there, but that doesn't fit with her feminist ideals of victimization.

Will I Am Not

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Been groped many a time by Women in Nightclubs.

#metoo

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

People say Ireland has a drinking culture not because the majority drink but because it's deemed that drink contributes negatively to society. Now the vast majority who do drink are not problem drinkers. But the fact that drink is so pervasive is seen as enabling problem drinkers.

Ireland had a drink culture. The international stereotypes about Irish people reflect this. The Fighting and the drinking Irish. Most International movies (and Hollywood) portray Irish people as borderline alcoholics. Towns/villages in Ireland previously had more bars/pubs that were warranted for the populations concerned. Ten years ago, in my hometown there were 23 pubs for a population of less than fifteen thousand. Now, there's less than seven, and they've turned more to serving food than dedicated drinking holes.

The smoking ban, and the hikes in tax on alcohol has seriously put a dent in the drink culture in Ireland and pushed people away from the bar scenes, which is why any modern statistics won't reflect a drink culture for here.

Ireland used to have a drink culture, but that has essentially died.

This pretense that you have sole ownership of how "culture" is used and everyone must subscribe to your definition is completely wrong.

And yet, this is the very impression you're passing on to the rest of us. You're basically accusing others of what you yourself are doing. Funny.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, it's you suggesting that it's a useless term since [as you stated] it can't be proven and disproven.

That's not how you define whether a term iss useful or not. That's how you define whether a scientific concept is testable. Scientific concepts and language use are completely different things and in general most people would not ask for a term to be "proven".

Whereas I do think that there are cultures out there that have previously or continue to protect the 'rights' of men in terms of rape. Thankfully, western culture no longer does this (marriage rights), and hasn't for a very long time.

The point is that there is nothing in Irish or Western culture that seeks to protect men in terms of rape. Our laws have been changed over the last fifty years to protect women from this kind of behavior, and our culture/society doesn't approve of it either. Even within 'male' culture it's seen as being a incredibly negative type of behavior which, for example, can be seen by the treatment of rapists in prison by other inmates.

Culture may be against violent rape but it's incredibly judgemental of date rape, in that it's often implied to be the woman's fault or conflating other behaviours with consent. Take the Belfast trial where points of evidence were the complainant putting her hand on a footballers knee, and part of the defense closing arguments heavily implying that by going up to a bedroom she was looking for sex. I think the exact phrase used was "what did she expect to happen, playing with train sets?".

The prison argument is nonsense. I assume you include the US in western cultures that are not rape cultures. Again sexual offenders tend to be segregated as they are targeted by inmates. Yet male rape is common in the US system. If inmate attitudes were truly indicative of societal attitudes then in any western country where inmates target rapists, one would expect them not to engage in rape themselves.

Once again, point missed completely.

Your point seemed to be that you have a greater perspective on indian culture having lived in India. My point was that LON lives in Ireland. She can make statents about Ireland all she wants. I don't recall her ever saying Ireland was worse than India. That's just the typical "oh someone else has it worse so Irish people cant complain" argument which is a dodgy argument.

Ipso

LLMMLL wrote: »

That's not how you define whether a term iss useful or not. That's how you define whether a scientific concept is testable. Scientific concepts and language use are completely different things and in general most people would not ask for a term to be "proven".



Culture may be against violent rape but it's incredibly judgemental of date rape, in that it's often implied to be the woman's fault or conflating other behaviours with consent. Take the Belfast trial where points of evidence were the complainant putting her hand on a footballers knee, and part of the defense closing arguments heavily implying that by going up to a bedroom she was looking for sex. I think the exact phrase used was "what did she expect to happen, playing with train sets?".

The prison argument is nonsense. I assume you include the US in western cultures that are not rape cultures. Again sexual offenders tend to be segregated as they are targeted by inmates. Yet male rape is common in the US system. If inmate attitudes were truly indicative of societal attitudes then in any western country where inmates target rapists, one would expect them not to engage in rape themselves.



Your point seemed to be that you have a greater perspective on indian culture having lived in India. My point was that LON lives in Ireland. She can make statents about Ireland all she wants. I don't recall her ever saying Ireland was worse than India. That's just the typical "oh someone else has it worse so Irish people cant complain" argument which is a dodgy argument.

No one is saying she hasn't the right, just not the credibility or cop on.

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ireland had a drink culture. The international stereotypes about Irish people reflect this. The Fighting and the drinking Irish. Most International movies (and Hollywood) portray Irish people as borderline alcoholics. Towns/villages in Ireland previously had more bars/pubs that were warranted for the populations concerned. Ten years ago, in my hometown there were 23 pubs for a population of less than fifteen thousand. Now, there's less than seven, and they've turned more to serving food than dedicated drinking holes.

The smoking ban, and the hikes in tax on alcohol has seriously put a dent in the drink culture in Ireland and pushed people away from the bar scenes, which is why any modern statistics won't reflect a drink culture for here.

So stereotypes are now evidence of culture? Because as seen from recent sketches in American TV the stereotype persists. In the last ten years we've had a foreign head of state visiting and the main photo op was drinking. I know plenty of towns That still have a huge number of pubs. The village I come from is 3000 people and has always had 3 pubs. That hasn't changed. The same is true of plenty of towns.

Now I'm not particularly passionate about whether Ireland has a drinking culture or not. But you seem certain that this term drinking culture (which is in the same category as rape culture) can safely be applied to Ireland in the past and is no longer applicable. Both of those positions are easy to dismantle. According to the National Alcohol Diary Survey, 150,000 people are alcohol dependent and 1.35 million are harmful drinkers. Yet you are perfectly happy to say that Ireland no longer has a drinking culture but that it clearly used to. However, if someone uses the similar term "rape culture" it's just a made up bull**** term that must be proved beyond all doubt. It's a complete double standard on how language is used.

And yet, this is the very impression you're passing on to the rest of us. You're basically accusing others of what you yourself are doing. Funny.

What I've actually said numerous times is that I've no issue with people disagreeing with me on rape culture, though I will argue against them about it. At no point have i said my definition or LONs definition is the only one. I've clearly said the opposite. What I've argued against is people requiring to prove a general term.

Omackeral

It’s not a general term really at all that’s used with the exception of certain fringes with an out and out agenda looking to grind an axe.

But you seem certain that this term drinking culture (which is in the same category as rape culture)

Putting drinking culture and rape culture in the same bracket is preposterous for reasons outlined literally dozens of times on this thread.