Cashless Society

Jim Bob Scratcher

What's your thoughts on it ?


Me personally I wouldn't be in favour of this. The government already have enough control over us.

jonon9

What?

Jim Bob Scratcher

jonon9 wrote: »

What?

No more cash

A few Scandinavian countries already doing this, China too..

Canis Lupus

Australia is highly cashfree. I personally only handle real money a few times a year. I love it.

Tokyo

I hate the idea personally. It hands far too much control to the government in terms of knowing my movements, spending habits, etc, information that is completely out of my control once I decide to buy a cup of coffee, pint of milk or whatever.

There's also something inherently secure about having cold, hard cash in your pocket, that doesn't require a phone to be charged, a card reader to be working, etc etc.

Peregrinus

mike_ie wrote: »

I hate the idea personally. It hands far too much control to the government in terms of knowing my movements, spending habits, etc, information that is completely out of my control once I decide to buy a cup of coffee, pint of milk or whatever.

Mmm. It mostly hands this information to commercial bodies. Of course, the government may be able to get it from the commercial bodies, but that's a separate matter.

To be honest, I think this battle is already lost. If you tot up how much of your total expenditure is in cash, you'll find its very little. (And some of that may be tracked anyway, e.g. if you use a supermarket loyalty card.) Non-cash transactions include your salary, your interest, your dividends (on the income side) and your mortgage, your utilities, your online purchases, your air and sea tickets, your insurance, your savings, most of your media consumption, etc, etc (on the expenditure side). OK, so the bank doesn't know which coffee shop you patronise but, really, how big a deal is that, when set against what they do know?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

No more cash

A few Scandinavian countries already doing this, China too..

I'm nearly sure this is wrong.

But sure tin foil hat at the ready !

Peregrinus

China is a long way off. 90% of consumer payment transactions in China are settled in cash. The government is making a strong push to increase the use of non-cash methods and they do have the world's most rapid growth in the uptake of non-cash methods, but obviously they have a fair way to go yet.

Scandinavia might be closer to the mark. The figure for Sweden is 59%, and rising. (In the Netherlands, 60% and rising; in Singapore, 61% and rising.)

I haven't see a figure for Ireland.

VW 1

It'll end up like that episode of black mirror, everything based on "points"/credit in the bank.

Tokyo

Peregrinus wrote: »

Mmm. It mostly hands this information to commercial bodies. Of course, the government may be able to get it from the commercial bodies, but that's a separate matter.

To be honest, I think this battle is already lost. If you tot up how much of your total expenditure is in cash, you'll find its very little. (And some of that may be tracked anyway, e.g. if you use a supermarket loyalty card.) Non-cash transactions include your salary, your interest, your dividends (on the income side) and your mortgage, your utilities, your online purchases, your air and sea tickets, your insurance, your savings, most of your media consumption, etc, etc (on the expenditure side). OK, so the bank doesn't know which coffee shop you patronise but, really, how big a deal is that, when set against what they do know?

I don't entirely agree. The expenditures you pointed out above are primarily optional - if I decide to buy an airline ticket for example, I have the choice between buying it online, and walking into a bricks and mortar travel agency and handing over cash for a ticket. Each method has pros and cons, but the decision still remains with me. Same with media consumption and so on - yes, it's becoming more difficult to engage in these transactions without having access to a credit card, but the choice still remains with me as to whether the benefits to me outweigh the downsides.

The issue is when such transactions are imposed on people - i.e. cashless society, where you have no choice but to engage in cashless transactions, then privacy of user data disappears out the window. By itself, someone knowing where you bought your cup of coffee this morning might not be such a big issue, but you could say the same thing about having your web browsing habits recorded and analysed - search for something now, and it's not too long before you have targeted advertising appearing, based on your searches. That kind of user data is invaluable to companies, so how long do you think it would take before you start getting spam about dark roast coffee, based on the fact that you've been buying a dark roast coffee every morning on the way to work?

There are also other things to take into account - albeit extremes, they do happen. What happens in the case of a natural disaster, such as Hurricane Katrina, except this time in a cashless society where all of these services are down?

I have no problem with cashless options being available as a compliment to cash, and leaving the choice in the hands of the customer. To remove one, in favour of the other, not a chance.

Varik

Most people are still dependant on the same card to get cash, you're just adding another step which isn't secure or where you can be left short.

Only cash reason I get out cash is to make sure I've change for buses that don't take leap, and the toll which if I pay cash I get away without paying the commercial rate. Would never have used a taxi before the apps made payment so simple.

erica74

I prefer using my card, once I take money out of an atm, it's gone. I absolutely hate having to take out €50 notes!
I use my card for 90% of my transactions and it helps me to keep track of my spending. If I'm using notes, I find the money just disappears and I can never account for every euro unless I have all of the receipts. And receipts are an inconvenience to keep in my bag or wallet. For card transactions I just keep an eye on my banking app and I can see everything.

Peregrinus

mike_ie wrote: »

I don't entirely agree. The expenditures you pointed out above are primarily optional - if I decide to buy an airline ticket for example, I have the choice between buying it online, and walking into a bricks and mortar travel agency and handing over cash for a ticket. Each method has pros and cons, but the decision still remains with me. Same with media consumption and so on - yes, it's becoming more difficult to engage in these transactions without having access to a credit card, but the choice still remains with me as to whether the benefits to me outweigh the downsides.

The issue is when such transactions are imposed on people - i.e. cashless society, where you have no choice but to engage in cashless transactions, then privacy of user data disappears out the window. By itself, someone knowing where you bought your cup of coffee this morning might not be such a big issue, but you could say the same thing about having your web browsing habits recorded and analysed - search for something now, and it's not too long before you have targeted advertising appearing, based on your searches. That kind of user data is invaluable to companies, so how long do you think it would take before you start getting spam about dark roast coffee, based on the fact that you've been buying a dark roast coffee every morning on the way to work?

There are also other things to take into account - albeit extremes, they do happen. What happens in the case of a natural disaster, such as Hurricane Katrina, except this time in a cashless society where all of these services are down?

I have no problem with cashless options being available as a compliment to cash, and leaving the choice in the hands of the customer. To remove one, in favour of the other, not a chance.

Mmm. I don't think a cashless society is one where cash doesn't exist; it's one where cash is little-used.

I think we're a long way off a society where cash is formally abolished, but already living in a society where most of our expenditure is in non-cash form (and the non-cash proportion is continuing to rise).

I note your concern about spam. But the fact is that being exempt from spam about coffee because I pay for my coffee in cash is of little benefit to me; I am already deluged with spam targetted by reference to my my browsing, my e-mail contents, my media consumption preferences, etc, etc. I don't see that my condition will be made materially worse by getting coffee-related spam as well. For that matter, Big Brother already knows what coffee I buy to drink at home; if He wants material to target coffee ads at me he already has it.

But, NB, He has this because of the use of supermarket loyalty cards, not non-cash payment systems. He doesn't (or shouldn't) have it from my credit card statements, since those are (supposed to be) confidential between my and my bank. My bank should not be selling that information to anyone and, since they're not in the coffee-retailing business themselves, they have no reason to target me with ads about coffee.

Which makes the point that what we really need here is not more use of cash; its tough, and enforceable, and enforced, data privacy legislation.

Your point about natural disasters is also well made but, again, the real issue here is that we live in society which is functionally largely cashless. In a natural disaster situation, our theoretical right to settle all our obligations in cash will be of little use; there simply won't be enough cash, or (without functioning ATMs and interbank clearing systems) the means to access it.

OldMrBrennan83

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Atlantic Dawn

They should round cash transactions up to the nearest Euro note, I hate the shrapnel when dealing in cash.

Tauriel

I'm not a fan of the idea myself.

How will we teach future generations about the value of money and that once it's gone, it's gone? Or teach them about opportunity cost?

I think, particularly in Ireland, it's asking for trouble.

secman

Criminals would lose out big time, everything would be traceable.
No cash would deter knock off gear, smuggled cigs and drugs.
These are definite positives of a cashless society.

But being irish , and the "system" historically stemming from bring the "Brits" we do like to beat the "system".

Peregrinus

secman wrote: »

Criminals would lose out big time, everything would be traceable.
No cash would deter knock off gear, smuggled cigs and drugs.
These are definite positives of a cashless society.

But of course electronic payment systems carry their own risks; who hasn't heard of, if not experienced, credit card fraud? So I think it's swings and roundabouts, really, so far as security risks go.

Alf Veedersane

VW 1 wrote: »

It'll end up like that episode of black mirror, everything based on "points"/credit in the bank.

And no one wants a society based on sex with pigs.

Sue Pa Key Pa

Don't think the farmers would be happy just keeping an ATM card in their great Granddad's battered suitcase under the bed.

sbsquarepants

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

And no one wants a society based on sex with pigs.

David Cameron might:D

donegaLroad

No more buskers and beggars. It will effect the homeless in a big way.

Tipperary animal lover

erica74 wrote: »

I prefer using my card, once I take money out of an atm, it's gone. I absolutely hate having to take out €50 notes!
I use my card for 90% of my transactions and it helps me to keep track of my spending. If I'm using notes, I find the money just disappears and I can never account for every euro unless I have all of the receipts. And receipts are an inconvenience to keep in my bag or wallet. For card transactions I just keep an eye on my banking app and I can see everything.

Cash all the way for me for day to day things, with all this tapping its to easy to run away with yourself buying things plus with every tap your paying an extra few cents on top of your purchase every time for that facility. With cash in my hand i know how much i have to spend and spend accordingly.as for recipes always good to keep incase of returns. Each to their own i suppose....

OldMrBrennan83

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Peregrinus

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

Cash all the way for me for day to day things, with all this tapping its to easy to run away with yourself buying things plus with every tap your paying an extra few cents on top of your purchase every time for that facility. With cash in my hand i know how much i have to spend and spend accordingly.as for recipes always good to keep incase of returns. Each to there own i suppose....

Cash is actually quite expensive for merchants and their banks to handle. The handling cost doesn't fall directly on you, the purchaser, but of course it all comes out in the wash; it's built into the price you pay. A switch towards non-cash methods reduces the overheads of trading, which is one of the reasons why governments generally encourage it.

Tipperary animal lover

Thats if your tapping the sh*te out of it, thats what the banks want you to do

Dohnjoe

mike_ie wrote: »

I don't entirely agree. The expenditures you pointed out above are primarily optional - if I decide to buy an airline ticket for example, I have the choice between buying it online, and walking into a bricks and mortar travel agency and handing over cash for a ticket. Each method has pros and cons, but the decision still remains with me. Same with media consumption and so on - yes, it's becoming more difficult to engage in these transactions without having access to a credit card, but the choice still remains with me as to whether the benefits to me outweigh the downsides.

Exactly, you make the choice. You could walk to a brick and mortar agency and pay cash, but it's often easier and more convenient to pay online

Public demand.

Wanderer78

Peregrinus wrote:

Cash is actually quite expensive for merchants and their banks to handle. The handling cost doesn't fall directly on you, the purchaser, but of course it all comes out in the wash; it's built into the price you pay. A switch towards non-cash methods reduces the overheads of trading, which is one of the reasons why governments generally encourage it.

It does make it easier though to implement things such as negative interest rates and bank bail ins, particularly if we had an exclusive cashless society.

I'm not convinced we should give up on cash just yet.

Sleeper12

I think all countries are easing down the cashless route. It cuts out /down on the the black market.. Granted BitCoin is there for the big boys but it would cut out "cash" jo in the building trade

A_Sober_Paddy

Where I work we don't have contactless(due to not working with our POS) I had to turn away 3 customer on Sunday because they had no cash or card they wanted to use apple/android pay. They look I got was hilarious, it's Limerick guys, most of the shops nearby don't have contactless.

I prefer cash, I rarely use my card, it allows me to have some level of annonimity with regards to what I spend my money on. Also meant that when going for my mortgage that money for online betting was nowhere in my statements as I was able to utilise different payment methods, with cash

Peregrinus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It does make it easier though to implement things such as negative interest rates and bank bail ins, particularly if we had an exclusive cashless society.

You have interest rates - positive or negative - on bank deposits and bank loans, which are by definition cashless. Things like interest can be charged/credited to them regardless of whether we use cash or debit cards to effect transactions.

The notes and coins in your pocket are cash. Your bank account, and your bank loan, are non-cash. Which means, when you think about it, that we're already largely cashless. What's your total wealth? And how much of that do you keep in notes and coin?

What we mainly use cash for nowadays is as a transfer mechanism to transfer some of our non-cash assets to someone else, who promptly converts what has been transferred back into non-cash form. I go to the ATM, draw out fifty euros, and give it to (say) a bookseller, who gives me a book in exchange. He takes the fifty euro to his bank and deposits it the same day or the next day. The cash has simply been a fairly inefficient method of transferring money from my account to his account.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm not convinced we should give up on cash just yet.

We have largely given up on it already.

OldMrBrennan83

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thelad95

A cashless society in terms of day to day transactions is a lot further away than most people think in my opinion especially in a ‘no card transactions under 5 euro’ society!

As for salaries being paid cashless, I’m actually aware of plenty of people working in the catering industry paid cash in hand and many SMEs will pay wages cash in hand as well especially to part-time employees.

As for many landlords cash is still king and make what you will why the reason for that is

Wanderer78

Have the majority given up on it, or are we being forced to give up on it?

I do think one of the main reasons for the explosion of blockchain based currencies is that confidence is being slowly lost in fiat based currencies and their systems. People have had enough of this level of control over their wealth.

I also think confidence in commercial banks is near rock bottom because of most recent events

myshirt

It will be good for landlords, because if the state can track your financial life then if you ever defaulted on rent, destroyed the gaff, or pulled any of the fast ones that tenants have been known to pull, then as soon as you get a job, get any money, want to buy a house, are owed money, try to improve your life, or whatever way you interact with the financial system, the state will be right there to enforce landlord rights.

BrokenArrows

Id be fine with it.
Rarely pay for anything with cash unless im buying something tiny like some chewing gum.

Going full cashless would be a hard sell, especially to trades people who like to be flexible with the amount of tax they pay

Peregrinus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Have the majority given up on it, or are we being forced to give up on it?

We're giving up on it because technology has brought us better, cheaper, more efficient alternatives.

Nobody ever banned faxes, but we don't send a lot of faxes these days. There are similar reasons for the decline in the proportion and value of transactions settled in cash.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I do think one of the main reasons for the explosion of blockchain based currencies is that confidence is being slowly lost in fiat based currencies and their systems. People have had enough of this level of control over their wealth.

It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure that cryptocurrencies give you any greater control over your wealth, given that they are very much more volatile than fiat currencies.

lawred2

mike_ie wrote: »

I hate the idea personally. It hands far too much control to the government in terms of knowing my movements, spending habits, etc, information that is completely out of my control once I decide to buy a cup of coffee, pint of milk or whatever.

There's also something inherently secure about having cold, hard cash in your pocket, that doesn't require a phone to be charged, a card reader to be working, etc etc.

how would the gubbernmint get to know any of this?

Cee-Jay-Cee

I’d estimate my cash usage at less than 10%. There are some weeks where I never have cash. Like it or not we are moving towards a cashless society, it doesn’t really bother me either way as whether you pay with cash or withdraw cash from an ATM the banks are charging you for doing it.

One pro towards cashless society is it would severely hamper criminals who deal in cash and make it harder for them to launder or use their money. There are certain sections of our community to still like to carry around the large roll of notes and peel off a bunch of 20’s or 50’s when they need.

A problem area though will be for Donestic services, ie when you call out the plumber or electrician, window cleaner etc etc paying them by card is difficult.

I can’t see cash disappearing anytime soon, I still think we’re 20 years away from it.

Dohnjoe

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I do think one of the main reasons for the explosion of blockchain based currencies is that confidence is being slowly lost in fiat based currencies and their systems. People have had enough of this level of control over their wealth.

Ironically most of the recent interest in cryptos is due to, quite bluntly, potential high cash/value returns. Trading, investing and speculation.

Their rapid rises and falls, high volatility, high risk (and exchange risk), market manipulation, lack of recourse/insurance make most of them currently unsuitable for currency use (outside of the black market)

Blockchain and distributed ledger tech are being developed and adopted by many industries, including financial because it can help speed up traditionally slow, cumbersome linear processes - which will improve efficiency and decrease cost

Permabear

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Geuze

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

What's your thoughts on it ?


Me personally I wouldn't be in favour of this. The government already have enough control over us.

I have moved in this direction, by using debit and credit cards more.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the Government.

Geuze

Permabear wrote: »

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Clearly, this will have to change as we move towards less cash use.

Zubeneschamali

mike_ie wrote: »

if I decide to buy an airline ticket for example, I have the choice between buying it online, and walking into a bricks and mortar travel agency

A what now?

Laois_Man

Although it's getting a bit of hype lately with the likes of Amazon about to begin talking payments in cryptocurrency (or they just have?), Blockchain technology still has a number of technical hurdles to overcome before it can be declared the new way of conducting business. e.g. its scaleability is laughably poor. Regulation is miles behind (as usual). There's limited technical expertise. The busier blockhains get, the likelihood of unintentional hard forks occurring increases. The Ethereum 'Ice Age' problem etc etc.

Banks are making themselves look busy trying to embrace the potential of it all but they are really only masking over the fact that if this thing really took off, it could easily make them completely redundant. If its not Blockcahin, it will be something else, or a different flavour of Blockchain like BigChainDB. But one thing is for sure. My children certainly won't be handling cash in adulthood. I doubt if I even will be myself in the 2030's (or possibly a lot sooner).

Permabear

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Laois_Man

Permabear wrote: »

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Personally, I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I'd be appalled if they weren't doing that. I suspect it's primarily (although not exclusively) aimed at curbing the movement of dole money out of the state by non-nationals.

Zubeneschamali

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, sure, because they are living off state handouts, and certain people are always claiming they are ripping off taxpayers, so the authorities have implemented a lot of checks.

This is quite different to a taxpayer in good standing with the revenue spending on their credit card. It is businesses getting that data, not the government.

Permabear

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Dohnjoe

Laois_Man wrote: »

Banks are making themselves look busy trying to embrace the potential of it all but they are really only masking over the fact that if this thing really took off, it could easily make them completely redundant. If its not Blockcahin, it will be something else, or a different flavour of Blockchain like BigChainDB. But one thing is for sure. My children certainly won't be handling cash in adulthood. I doubt if I even will be myself in the 2030's (or possibly a lot sooner).

The big issue for mainstream adoption of cryptos is their persistent risk and instability. Ideally a currency needs to be relatively stable.

Permabear

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