Cashless Society

Wheeliebin30

Would surely stop a lot of drug use?

Wanderer78

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Would surely stop a lot of drug use?

not at all, humans have always consumed mind altering substances, and this will continue for as long as we exist, no matter what 'obstacles' are put in place.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

People spend more when they go cashless. I thought this would have been obvious, but most people on the thread have commented how they spend more when they use cash.

Monopoly money: The effect of payment coupling and form on spending behavior.

Does It Matter Whether You Pay With Cash Or A Credit Card?
#1. Paying with a credit cards is less painful than paying with cash. So shoppers spend more money.
#2 Credit card users not only spend more, but they also purchase more unhealthy things.
#3 Those who pay with cash enjoy a better relationship with their purchased products.


I personally pay all my regularly occurring bills cashless with my card. As it's quicker and easier to pay your electricity, internet ect. online.

When it comes to everything else I use cash. Bringing cash to a pub is far more advisable, giving cash money as a gift is more convenient, children don't have bank accounts, when there is a power outage cash is the only thing that can keep you going (ex hurricane Ophelia for example), trades people need to deal mostly in cash, going shopping in general is better done with cash. Then there's the problem if you lose your bank card, or to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole of if your card is 'turned off', what do you do then?

I think/hope there are too many obstacles for there to be a fully cashless society.

Tommy Ferguson

They may as well ram a tracker up our hole altogether.

Zubeneschamali

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

People spend more when they go cashless. I thought this would have been obvious, but most people on the thread have commented how they spend more when they use cash.

People who are used to spending cash may spend more when going cashless, I suppose. i do know a woman who had to cut up her credit cards because she was bad at managing them.

But people who grow up thinking money IS plastic will still understand money.

Laois_Man

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

My post was about Blockchain technology. If it takes off, there won't be any banks anymore that can make anyone a member of an "unbanked population" as you put it. It's incorrect to say we're nowhere near it. The theory exists, and elements exist in practice. But the scalabilty of other technical issues such as scalability and other issues are in the way still.

Have a look at Don Tapscott's Ted presentation on it which addresses your concerns and also the points above around data privacy. Well worth a look. Although he either doesnt know the technical issues, or just doesn't want you to know for fear it might hurt his book sales.

Also wortwhile looking up Andreas Antonopoulos too.

Permabear

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Laois_Man

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't know what you think Governments can do to stop it. And it's got plenty of value for them anyway.

As for the usability and accessibility, it really isn't any more complicated than counting coins and notes and handing them to a teller. They won't have to access any systems.

Cordell

Tommy Ferguson wrote: »

They may as well ram a tracker up our hole altogether.

Yep, for the moment we buy the tracker ourselves, some even stay overnight in long queues to make sure they get to have the newest tracker there is.
But most don't put it up their hole, although some may do.

branie2

Cashless society = Mark of the Beast

Gyalist

There was a working paper published by the IMF earlier this year with the anodyne title of: The Macroeconomics of De-Cashing. In its advice to governments who wish to impose a cashless society against the will of its citizens the paper recommends:

Although some countries most likely will de-cash in a few years, going completely cashless should be phased in steps. The de-cashing process could build on the initial and largely uncontested steps, such as the phasing out of large denomination bills, the placement of ceilings on cash transactions, and the reporting of cash moves across the borders. Further steps could include creating economic incentives to reduce the use of cash in transactions, simplifying the opening and use of transferrable deposits, and further computerizing the financial system

The goal is to manufacture consent by implementing small but gradual steps towards the goal of abolishing cash transactions.

I bank with BofI and they have made it increasingly difficult to obtain cash above the card limit of €700. My local branch only has over the counter cash services between 10 - 12:30.

Wanderer78

Gyalist wrote:

I bank with Bof I and they have made it increasingly difficult to obtain cash above the card limit of €700. My local branch only has over the counter cash services between 10 - 12:30.

It's also interesting to note the implementation of negative interest rates in some banks including our own BOI.

Mrs OBumble

Leap cards offer a huge discount (cash fare = 2.20, Leap = 1.60 in Galway / Limerick) - but still less than 50% of the population use them. The ones who do are mainly foreigners and young people.

If people cannot manage a debit-card style bus ticket, they certainly won't manage the rest of their lives with a debit-card.

And yes, there are lots of unbanked and under-banked (credit-union account only) people in Ireland. Many are beneficiaries: you don't need a bank account to receive a welfare benefit, you can either get cash at the Post Office, or nominate someone to act as an agent to receive the money for you into their bank account.

Dohnjoe

Gyalist wrote: »

There was a working paper published by the IMF earlier this year with the anodyne title of: The Macroeconomics of De-Cashing. In its advice to governments who wish to impose a cashless society against the will of its citizens the paper recommends:

The goal is to manufacture consent by implementing small but gradual steps towards the goal of abolishing cash transactions.

The public is driving a cashless society. We demand it. It's generally easier to pay via card than getting out the cash, having the correct amount, dealing with change, etc. No need to fuel the fantasy that this is some evil nefarious government plan, it's just more convenient.

alb

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The public is driving a cashless society. We demand it. It's generally easier to pay via card than getting out the cash, having the correct amount, dealing with change, etc. No need to fuel the fantasy that this is some evil nefarious government plan, it's just more convenient.

I agree the public are pushing it, and the eventual outcome will be cash being more awkward and expensive to use. Once it reaches a tipping point where the average person is basically never using cash, you'll start to get bad consequences creeping in, more surveillance, more censorship of payments, more direct taxing at source, more analysis and discrimination based on transaction history etc

If it gets bad enough, which it probably will, the public, or at least a subset of it, will begin pushing back the other way by either using cash itself more again, or if it's not available or practical then using other forms of money. Some of us already started using cryptocurrency in the last few years.

Permabear

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BrokenArrows

When we get to the point where we are in a 100% cashless society which i dont think is that far away, i wonder what will happen to homeless people who beg.

matrim

I've found myself carrying less and less cash. It's not a concious decision, it's just that when I need something and realise I don't have cash then I tap my card or use android pay instead of going to the ATM.

I very rarely need to use actual cash. I think the only time recently I had a problem was at the local farmers market. Even then one of the stalls had a card reader and was able to give me cash back to pay the other stall (who's card reader was broken.)

matrim

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I had something similar last year. I was in charge of the work lotto syndicate and bought the tickets online. I didn't want the transactions to the lotto showing on my bank account as I was applying for a mortgage. I got a a pre-paid credit card and would transfer money to that and then use the pre-paid card to transfer money to the lotto account.

Cordell

BrokenArrows wrote: »

When we get to the point where we are in a 100% cashless society which i dont think is that far away, i wonder what will happen to homeless people who beg.

Paypal? Them holding a gofundme link as QR code? POS instead of cup?
People actually making an effort and getting them a hot tea or something to eat rather than dropping some of the lose change into the cup and walking off satisfied that they done such a good deed?

cnocbui

I have no interest in a cashless society and any one who wants such a horrible thing can keep it. Utterly impractical and completely stupid idea.

I withdraw my cash limit from an ATM and then carry and spend cash. Much cheaper in bank fees.

matrim

cnocbui wrote: »

I have no interest in a cashless society and any one who wants such a horrible thing can keep it. Utterly impractical and completely stupid idea.

I withdraw my cash limit from an ATM and then carry and spend cash. Much cheaper in bank fees.

I get why people don't like it and each to their own but why is it impractical?

If I want to buy something I take my card from my wallet, hold it to the reader and off I go. Maybe I have to enter a pin if it's something expensive.

If you want to buy something, you have to go to the ATM, take out your card, put it in the ATM, enter your PIN, take out the cash, then go to the cashier, give them money and wait for the change.


In regards to fees, it depends on your bank. Some banks charge the same fees no matter the number of transactions I do.

BrokenArrows

cnocbui wrote: »

I have no interest in a cashless society and any one who wants such a horrible thing can keep it. Utterly impractical and completely stupid idea.

I withdraw my cash limit from an ATM and then carry and spend cash. Much cheaper in bank fees.

You are right in Ireland with the bank fees and taxes which are crazy.

In the UK as an example they dont have any fees (unless you pick a upgraded account).

My current account has zero fees regardless of how much i used my debit and credit cards.

grindle

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

One of cryptos main foibles, but we should try to keep in mind that cryptos are very much in alpha or bete-testing stages now. Zero cryptos consider themselves finished, production-ready solutions right now.

Once scalability and energy efficiency are "solved" the big currency winner will be whichever group manages to make on-ramping and ease-of-use as intuitive as Apple or Android Pay.

Price volatility lessens with adoption - once the market hits tens of trillions there'll be some awful bubbles for people to catch themselves up in, but that's part of the growing pains of an economic revolution.

This thread gives me great hope actually - so many people distrust banks and the government with their information that it's hard not to be bullish for crypto's future!

Permabear

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cnocbui

matrim wrote: »

I get why people don't like it and each to their own but why is it impractical?

If I want to buy something I take my card from my wallet, hold it to the reader and off I go. Maybe I have to enter a pin if it's something expensive.

If you want to buy something, you have to go to the ATM, take out your card, put it in the ATM, enter your PIN, take out the cash, then go to the cashier, give them money and wait for the change.


In regards to fees, it depends on your bank. Some banks charge the same fees no matter the number of transactions I do.

It's impractical because it relies on bank accounts. I currently have someone in my household who can not open a bank account because they can't get an address verification the bank would accept because they aren't paying the utility bills. They have been on to the bank several times trying to get suggestions on how to fix this but the bank has just said to forget it.

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Strawberries at the side of the road * 1000. I don't have to use an ATM very often. Regularly standing in lines I have never seen anyone have a problem and delay with cash while I couldn't count how often I have seen card's fail. i'll grant you that with NFC tap and pay it can be very quick, compared to cash, but we are talking no more than 15 seconds difference. Sorry, but I'm not in a rush, especially considering the transaction cost wallop of cashless.

RobertKK

Sue Pa Key Pa wrote: »

Don't think the farmers would be happy just keeping an ATM card in their great Granddad's battered suitcase under the bed.

Most farm payments to the farmer are done cashless.

Zubeneschamali

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Others will say the data is inevitable - the key is data privacy legislation.

Geuze

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The public is driving a cashless society. We demand it. It's generally easier to pay via card than getting out the cash, having the correct amount, dealing with change, etc. No need to fuel the fantasy that this is some evil nefarious government plan, it's just more convenient.

+++1

Geuze

BrokenArrows wrote: »

When we get to the point where we are in a 100% cashless society which i dont think is that far away, i wonder what will happen to homeless people who beg.

These people receive welfare payments.

If you wish to give them some money, you may be able to hold your smartphone to theirs, and transfer money.

Chips Lovell

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

If you're getting charged a 20 cent fee for a loaf of bread, you need to find a different bank. Most banks have no fees on contactless (payments up to €30).

cnocbui

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

If you're getting charged a 20 cent fee for a loaf of bread, you need to find a different bank. Most banks have no fees on contactless (payments up to €30).

AIB is the biggest bank by far and would probably be a more significant operator than your 'most banks' put together, and boy do they charge.

Cookie_Monster

The sooner the better. NZ is 95% card/phone transactions but it's really annoying coming across the tiny subset of people or shops that only take cash, like anyone carries it around anymore!

BrokenArrows

cnocbui wrote: »

It's impractical because it relies on bank accounts. I currently have someone in my household who can not open a bank account because they can't get an address verification the bank would accept because they aren't paying the utility bills. They have been on to the bank several times trying to get suggestions on how to fix this but the bank has just said to forget it.

That is just the tip of the iceberg. Strawberries at the side of the road * 1000. I don't have to use an ATM very often. Regularly standing in lines I have never seen anyone have a problem and delay with cash while I couldn't count how often I have seen card's fail. i'll grant you that with NFC tap and pay it can be very quick, compared to cash, but we are talking no more than 15 seconds difference. Sorry, but I'm not in a rush, especially considering the transaction cost wallop of cashless.

That's literally the easiest problem to fix. Transfer a bill to their name for a month or two. Done.

cnocbui

BrokenArrows wrote: »

That's literally the easiest problem to fix. Transfer a bill to their name for a month or two. Done.

Not happening. I don't get any form of bill for telecoms. For electricity I can theoretically download and print off a PDF, otherwise I don't get one of those either. As I might need the ID for my own purposes I'm not going to be transferring the one and only residential ID I have into someone else's name.

Well, the security issue kills it for me. Most software apps have huge security holes waiting to be abused... and encouraging a cashless society before we have better security is madness. The signals from phones, tablets, etc can be intercepted. Even without the actual transaction being altered, it provides a large about of financial data. Considering that many security consultants are former hackers it suggests that people seriously into hacking are up to speed at cracking commercial levels of encryption.

I've been designing/programming apps for the games market with credit card transactions, and honestly, most forums are suggestive about the lack of decent security for those transactions. I'm nowhere up to speed with all of it yet, but what I've read so far doesn't fill me with confidence.

I'll stick to notes/cash for as long as I can.

G_R

cnocbui wrote: »

Not happening. I don't get any form of bill for telecoms. For electricity I can theoretically download and print off a PDF, otherwise I don't get one of those either. As I might need the ID for my own purposes I'm not going to be transferring the one and only residential ID I have into someone else's name.

Surely you have your own bank statement you could use in that eventuality?

Other suggestions for the member of your household who can't get a valid proof of address:
- letter from revenue - even if they aren't working, go register for Revenue Online and they'll post you the PIN. That letter will do fine.
- are they registered to vote? Most banks will use the electoral register as proof of address
- are they a student? CAO letter or letter from college will do fine. If they are under 18 almost banks will allow them use a relatives proof of address.

Would any of these work?

matrim

G_R wrote: »

Surely you have your own bank statement you could use in that eventuality?

Other suggestions for the member of your household who can't get a valid proof of address:
- letter from revenue - even if they aren't working, go register for Revenue Online and they'll post you the PIN. That letter will do fine.
- are they registered to vote? Most banks will use the electoral register as proof of address
- are they a student? CAO letter or letter from college will do fine. If they are under 18 almost banks will allow them use a relatives proof of address.

Would any of these work?

I'm not sure if they still do it but they used to allow the home owner (or maybe someone else with proof of address there) to write a letter stating that the person lived there.

cnocbui

G_R wrote: »

Surely you have your own bank statement you could use in that eventuality?

Other suggestions for the member of your household who can't get a valid proof of address:
- letter from revenue - even if they aren't working, go register for Revenue Online and they'll post you the PIN. That letter will do fine.
- are they registered to vote? Most banks will use the electoral register as proof of address
- are they a student? CAO letter or letter from college will do fine. If they are under 18 almost banks will allow them use a relatives proof of address.

Would any of these work?

Thanks for the suggestions. They can't change their current bank details, which is part of the problem.

Not registered to vote at this address currently, that might be one avenue, however I checked BOIs requirements and it's not listed as being acceptable.

They just picked up their tertiary degree so that's out.

Registering for Revenue might work, I'll suggest it, thanks.

G_R

cnocbui wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestions. They can't change their current bank details, which is part of the problem.

Not registered to vote at this address currently, that might be one avenue, however I checked BOIs requirements and it's not listed as being acceptable.

They just picked up their tertiary degree so that's out.

Registering for Revenue might work, I'll suggest it, thanks.

No problem - hope you get sorted.

Just FYI - there is other options other than the ones I posted, they're just the most common ones that work for people who don't have utility bills etc. If you drop into a branch I'm sure you'll find someone who'll be happy to help you figure something out.

Permabear

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wakka12

hate it hate it hate it. Hate everything about most technology created in the last few decades outside of healthcare , Id love to live in a society that was less focused on it . I hate that the profession I love is impossible to compete in without very up to date computer skills

Cant abide the feeling of all my hard earnings and everything Im worth floating around in space. With so many hackers and scammers who are so sly and with so many avenues and methods to scam online it just really scares me

BrokenArrows

cnocbui wrote: »

Not happening. I don't get any form of bill for telecoms. For electricity I can theoretically download and print off a PDF, otherwise I don't get one of those either. As I might need the ID for my own purposes I'm not going to be transferring the one and only residential ID I have into someone else's name.

Some suppliers will put more than one name on a bill.

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll stick to notes/cash for as long as I can.

And that may well be possible (any physical objects with assigned value to it).

The original exchange system has and will always exist i.e. that of the 'barter'.

I've a 500yr old small cob coin, that can buy much more than it did back in the days of the Spanish Armada e.g. Today it would fetch the value of a full day of bespoke Blacksmithing, catchment basket of fresh Caribbean fish, dozen coconuts, bottle of brandy and other extraneous services comparable to that era.

The humble 5kg bag of organic potatoes will likely barter a full day of the latest VR environment in 2050.

questionmark?

cnocbui wrote: »

AIB is the biggest bank by far and would probably be a more significant operator than your 'most banks' put together, and boy do they charge.

Maybe people should stop banking with AIB and BOI for that matter and open current accounts with either free banking or low cost fixed fees. There are a fair few accounts out there offering one or the other. I get free banking and use my card for I'd say 80% of my spending.

Noveight

Cash is king. I'd hate to live in a cashless society.

Laois_Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the security issue kills it for me. Most software apps have huge security holes waiting to be abused... and encouraging a cashless society before we have better security is madness. The signals from phones, tablets, etc can be intercepted. Even without the actual transaction being altered, it provides a large about of financial data. Considering that many security consultants are former hackers it suggests that people seriously into hacking are up to speed at cracking commercial levels of encryption.

I've been designing/programming apps for the games market with credit card transactions, and honestly, most forums are suggestive about the lack of decent security for those transactions. I'm nowhere up to speed with all of it yet, but what I've read so far doesn't fill me with confidence.

I'll stick to notes/cash for as long as I can.

The cashless society will probably exist on a blockchain or on some form of it. Which in security terms is entirely different than credit card transactions processing you're talking about. Its bullet proof....until the arrival of quantum computing anyway.

4068ac1elhodqr

Laois_Man wrote: »

Its bullet proof....until the arrival of quantum computing anyway.

For just 15$m, D-Wave’s 2000Q (with 2,000 qubits) is readily available to select customers e.g. NASA.

D-Wave’s system is based on the ‘paradigm of quantum annealing’, tried that once with the ladyfriend she didn’t enjoy it. IBM is using the gate mode.
Upgrades from D-wave expected every 18mths.

IBM has 5-qubit in the cloud for anyone to play with.

While Intel has just shipped a ‘coin sized’ 17-qubit package to the Netherlands, operating just above absolute zero.

Ultimately AI and machine learning will work out the best methodology, but quantum computing is already here.

Rubberchikken

Cash all the way here. That way I know where almost every penny is gone.

the_syco

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

No more cash

A few Scandinavian countries already doing this, China too..

Unless you cap the charge amount of transactions to a low amount, it won't happen.