I've just turned off the radio in absolute anger

con___manx1

I was in amsterdam in a large group of irish who cheerd loudly to anyone who came out of a red light : )

milehip

_Dara_ wrote: »

Sure, they would have avoided it if they knew it was going to happen. But as I've said, many many times, we don't how long that crowd had been there. It would be very easy to enter the shop when the crowd was much smaller and still be there when it had built up. So if that was the case, to avoid the scenario, you'd have to stay in the shop until the crowd dissipated. OR you'd have to leave the shop and to be confronted with that crowd.

If someone entered a shop before a crowd built up and wanted to leave the shop but avoid the crowd, how would you suggest they resolve that?

AND as someone else said, many people wouldn't expect grown adults to behave in such a juvenile manner. Why would any shopper expect that situation to happen?

I'll answer the last part first:
because it's a crowd of football fans on the beer in a foreign country.

As for the rest of what you WROTE it's like a mismatch of CSI Copenhagen vs Schrödinger's cat written by a coked-up physicist with crime novel aspirations.

Hector Bellend

Don Kiddick wrote: »

If she was in fear of her life I'm quite sure they'd have let her use the back door,

I'm sure some of the lads wouldnt have minded taking her through the back door

ligerdub

Comments about immaturity because she was coming out of a lingerie shop. The shop itself is almost entirely irrelevant. Randomers get cheers at these things. Some of you are looking at the outcome and making up hypotheticals to suit your negative views.

Take the following example from 2016. Now I must warn some of you, it contains footage of Ireland fans, some of them singing, a lot of them aimed in the direction of a single local. I hope you can manage to survive it.

https://youtu.be/Ipg4oxNw2b4

Did people line up outside this guys apartment specifically to give him a cheer? Of course not! Perhaps this was some sort of sexual harassment. Let's not rule it out after all. This absolutely wouldn't have happened had there not been camera phones either, no, definitely not.

Some of these guys don't follow a team here or ever rally attend that many matches. So what! I follow a team here in Ireland and attend most weeks there's a game. The affinity I have for my club is different than what I have for my country, and the fact that I share the international trip with those who don't frequent Tolka, Dalymount, Richmond, Oriel is almost entirely irrelevant. Some of them are there just for the laugh......so what! What a crime that is! It's their laugh, and their money.....and absolutely everyone there is the to support Ireland, and pretty much everyone is there to enjoy themselves. There's a reason we get such a large number going, it's because it's a lot of fun. People are pulled down for their opinions and everything has become so serious these days. If people want to let their hair down and have a bit of harmless fun let them.

I suggest the naysayers actually go on one of these Ireland away trips and see what it's like. You never know, you might actually enjoy yourself. It can be done for relatively little money in many cases. If you don't like what people say (positive things) about the Ireland team then have a pop at the publications that print them.

As for the women in Denmark, like the man in France, was everyone there just to get her coming out the door? No. Did most people give her a cheer? Yeah probably. Was there an intention of many of them to take it any further? No. How many did? About 2. Did these interactions turn sour? No. Are these interactions reflective of everyone there, including those Irish fans in Denmark but not specifically at that location? Oh yeah, definitely, go right ahead. Give me a break!

We didn't qualify for the World Cup.

I guess this is a good thing though. I mean heaven forbid you have to see a YouTube clip you don't like, where people are enjoying themselves. Maybe they should take videos of the marauding rape gangs that are obviously part of this trip based off a post on the Internet. I suppose the fact that 99.999999999% of the rest of the populations interest in this country getting to only the 4th World Cup it's ever been to is acceptable collateral damage.

Pathetic!

_Dara_

^^^^^

Did you see the second video on-thread of the same incident? The Denmark incident from the OP? Check it out. Or not.

Oh and I've seen the balcony one before. Difference there is he was happily ensconced in his own home. He can could choose to go inside. Big diff. The control was all his there.

Sunflower 27

_Dara_ wrote: »

Possible but unlikely anyone would bother or be allowed to. And who thinks "Better go out the back in case I'm cheered for buying underwear". You'd just think... well nothing really because nobody would expect a crowd of adults to act like that, even with booze in them. You'd just expect them to act like adults and not a crowd of horny teenagers. So nobody would really avoid going about their daily business in this scenario realistically.

Agree. And her reaction of joining in could have been guided somewhat by fear. What if I'm a viewed a spoilsport and scurry off, will I be booed?

Anyway, the world is safe maybe now.... For a little while.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Agree. And her reaction of joining in could have been guided somewhat by fear.

Except, as has been told here umpteen times, she said it was all in great spirits and she enjoyed the laugh.

Far too many "what ifs", "how abouts" and "could haves" here. If something sinister happened, then we could condemn it and be rightly furious. The worst that would have happened IMO would be she didn't interact and just kept walking and went about her day. They're hardly gonna gang up on her and force her to do anything.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Except, as has been told here umpteen times, she said it was all in great spirits and she enjoyed the laugh.

Far too many "what ifs", "how abouts" and "could haves" here. If something sinister happened, then we could condemn it and be rightly furious. The worst that would have happened IMO would be she didn't interact and just kept walking and went about her day. They're hardly gonna gang up on her and force her to do anything.

How do you or anyone for that matter know what they could or could not do? You don't. You are effectively saying you know precisely how some event would unfold because you can predict the behaviour of everyone there.

What if she pushed her way through and knocked someone's drink all over them? None of us know what could have happened. This woman may have been happy to join in the banter, another may have felt very intimidated in such a situation and reacted differently.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

How do you or anyone for that matter know what they could or could not do? You don't. You are effectively saying you know precisely how some event would unfold because you can predict the behaviour of everyone there.

I can make an informed prediction based on past personal experiences because I've been on Ireland aways myself. Most people get on board with the 'craic' (even if it is self-indulgent at times) and those who don't simply toddle on and go about their business to nobody's chagrin.

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

What if she pushed her way through and knocked someone's drink all over them? None of us know what could have happened. This woman may have been happy to join in the banter, another may have felt very intimidated in such a situation and reacted differently.

More what ifs.

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

I can make an informed prediction based on past personal experiences because I've been on Ireland aways myself. Most people get on board with the 'craic' (even if it is self-indulgent at times) and those who don't simply toddle on and go about their business to nobody's chagrin.



More what ifs.

And more of you knowing the outcomes based on knowing the thoughts and behaviour of every intoxicated person at an event. Going to a few away matches means nothing. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other way to say it.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

And more of you knowing the outcomes based on knowing the thoughts and behaviour of every intoxicated person at an event. Going to a few away matches means nothing. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other way to say it.

"Experience counts for less than da feels".

Yeah 21st century we just love ya!

GritBiscuit

On this occasion with regards to harassment, it's a big fat meh...the woman in question clearly was't bothered so why people are getting all out of sorts on her behalf or projecting into fictional scenario's, I don't know.

It is indicative of a bigger issue tho; reputations are hard earned and easily thrown away - this "craic" that the BIG love to think they're having/recording for posterity is starting to gain a reputation in the international media of puerile annoyance with a huge drinking problem thrown in. Better than hooliganism, certainly, but still not the kind of reputation to be terribly proud of.

PeterParker957

GritBiscuit wrote: »

On this occasion with regards to harassment, it's a big fat meh...the woman in question clearly was't bothered so why people are getting all out of sorts on her behalf or projecting into fictional scenario's, I don't know..

This.

For anyone unsure the above is called "common sense" and we used to have a lof of it in the olden days.

Sunflower 27

GritBiscuit wrote: »

On this occasion with regards to harassment, it's a big fat meh...the woman in question clearly was't bothered so why people are getting all out of sorts on her behalf or projecting into fictional scenario's, I don't know.

It is indicative of a bigger issue tho; reputations are hard earned and easily thrown away - this "craic" that the BIG love to think they're having/recording for posterity is starting to gain a reputation in the international media of puerile annoyance with a huge drinking problem thrown in. Better than hooliganism, certainly, but still not the kind of reputation to be terribly proud of.

I agree with you. The woman in this situation seems fine with the banter, but not every woman would find drunk groups of Irish fan a laugh.

The idea that everone likes that sort of banter is so far off the mark. I find it cringeworthy at this stage, others may find it intimidating. Others may find it humiliating. But I'm not going to be able to stop it. I just avoid them

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

And more of you knowing the outcomes based on knowing the thoughts and behaviour of every intoxicated person at an event. Going to a few away matches means nothing. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other way to say it.

Well I'm not an oracle but I am basing it on every single match I've been at, which includes much more than a handful of Ireland away games. I follow League of Ireland every single week and have never seen any intimidation of women. So forgive me for using actual experiences rather than your imaginary scenarios.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

The idea that everone likes that sort of banter is so far off the mark. I find it cringeworthy at this stage, others may find it intimidating. Others may find it humiliating. But I'm not going to be able to stop it. I just avoid them :

Not everyone likes it but you can just go along on your way and nobody will kill you or abuse you for it. Yes, I'm using personal experience there again!

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Well I'm not an oracle but I am basing it on every single match I've been at, which includes much more than a handful of Ireland away games. I follow League of Ireland every single week and have never seen any intimidation of women. So forgive me for using actual experiences rather than your imaginary scenarios.

Isnt it great, the world can rest easy there won't ever be an incident between drunk fans and a woman because you haven't yet experienced it yourself. You do see how ridiculous what you are saying is, don't you.?

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Not everyone likes it but you can just go along on your way and nobody will kill you or abuse you for it. Yes, I'm using personal experience there again!

There you go again. No one will abuse you. You can't know that at all.
If a woman says get out of my way it could easily incite an angry response. Just because it wouldn't make you angry, doesn't mean every pissed up fan would feel and react the same.

retro:electro

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

There you go again. No one will abuse you. You can't know that at all.
If a woman says get out of my way it could easily incite an angry response. Just because it wouldn't make you angry, doesn't mean every pissed up fan would feel and react the same.

But nothing happened. Literally nothing. I could have gotten knocked off my bike this morning whe I cycled to college, but I didn't. The coffee guy that I had a bit of banter with could have taken my humour the wrong way and thrown the coffee in my face. What you're doing is defining potential offence on the basis of a completely hypothetical situation. Why? Do you approach other events or incidents with the same paranoia? It sounds exhausting.

Nothing happened. People need to repeat that to themselves over and over. And if something did happen, I'm sure there were more than enough decent lads there to intervene should something have gotten out of hand. Apparently I'm allowed to say that because imagining hypothetical situations and presenting them as possible situations to support my theory is what we do now.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Isnt it great, the world can rest easy there won't ever be an incident between drunk fans and a woman because you haven't yet experienced it yourself. You do see how ridiculous what you are saying is, don't you.?

Your sarcastic tone is horrendous as a tool for debate. I've given my experiences of following teams week in and week out. You've given nothing.

PeterParker957

Omackeral wrote: »

Well I'm not an oracle but I am basing it on every single match I've been at, which includes much more than a handful of Ireland away games. I follow League of Ireland every single week and have never seen any intimidation of women. So forgive me for using actual experiences rather than your imaginary scenarios.

Hesitating to bring actual knowledge into this but I've been going to football matches for almost 42 years. Home, away, occasionally Europe and have NEVER been intimidated, assaulted, harassed or any other things that are being proposed as the "norm".

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

There you go again. No one will abuse you. You can't know that at all.
If a woman says get out of my way it could easily incite an angry response. Just because it wouldn't make you angry, doesn't mean every pissed up fan would feel and react the same.

If anyone says it like that they deserve a dig - whatever happened to "excuse me ?"

Sunflower 27

anna080 wrote: »

But nothing happened. Literally nothing. I could have gotten knocked off my bike this morning whe I cycled to college, but I didn't. The coffee guy that I had a bit of banter with could have taken my humour the wrong way and thrown the coffee in my face. What you're doing is defining potential offence on the basis of a completely hypothetical situation. Why? Do you approach other events or incidents with the same paranoia? It sounds exhausting.

Nothing happened. People need to repeat that to themselves over and over. And if something did happen, I'm sure there were more than enough decent lads there to intervene should something have gotten out of hand. Apparently I'm allowed to say that because imagining hypothetical situations and presenting them as possible situations to support my theory is what we do now.

I think if you read back over my posts, I said the woman in this case joined in the banter. I think it's quite obvious nothing happened in this case. To think all women will appreciate this banter, and should behave in a certain way to keep the drunken masses happy though, is wrong.

PeterParker957

anna080 wrote: »

But nothing happened. Literally nothing. I could have gotten knocked off my bike this morning whe I cycled to college, but I didn't. The coffee guy that I had a bit of banter with could have taken my humour the wrong way and thrown the coffee in my face. What you're doing is defining potential offence on the basis of a completely hypothetical situation. Why? Do you approach other events or incidents with the same paranoia? It sounds exhausting.

Nothing happened. People need to repeat that to themselves over and over. And if something did happen, I'm sure there were more than enough decent lads there to intervene should something have gotten out of hand. Apparently I'm allowed to say that because imagining hypothetical situations and presenting them as possible situations to support my theory is what we do now.

+1

If I hadn't discovered the pre-match beer I could well have had the figure I did at 19 and the banter on the LUAS may have been like that toothpaste advert where the train is stopped.

What ifs are utterly meaningless.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

To think all women will appreciate this banter, and should behave in a certain way to keep the drunken masses happy though, is wrong.

Except nobody said that. They aren't required to make anyone happy or appreciate anything. They can just walk on and continue with their lives. They won't be cornered, tarred, feathered, hung, drawn and quartered.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I think if you read back over my posts, I said the woman in this case joined in the banter. I think it's quite obvious nothing happened in this case. To think all women will appreciate this banter, and should behave in a certain way to keep the drunken masses happy though, is wrong.

Utter rubbish.

I don't "behave in a certain way to keep the drunken masses happy".

What a patronising point of view.

I'm generally one of the drunken masses and I'm comfortable in male company. I'm on of the gang. Gender is left at the door.

What would you have me do ? Wear pink ? Lace ? Make them change the radio to a Louise O'Neill audiobook ???

Sunflower 27

PeterParker957 wrote: »

If anyone says it like that they deserve a dig - whatever happened to "excuse me ?"

Well, I'd say excuse me, doesn't mean everyone will when faced with a drunken group of jeering fans possibly blocking their way and slow to move, maybe looking the woman up and down and making her feel uncomfortable.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Well, I'd say excuse me, doesn't mean everyone will when faced with a drunken group of jeering fans possibly blocking their way and slow to move, maybe looking the woman up and down and making her feel uncomfortable.

Yeah we're all wallflowers who are uncomfortable when looked at by men. :rolleyes:

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Well, I'd say excuse me, doesn't mean everyone will when faced with a drunken group of jeering fans possibly blocking their way and slow to move, maybe looking the woman up and down and making her feel uncomfortable.

Whataboutery again. You're best off covering yourself in bubble wrap or cotton wool, just in case.

PeterParker957

Omackeral wrote: »

Whataboutery again. You're best off covering yourself in bubble wrap or cotton wool, just in case.

A man has just asked me where the bathroom is.

Do I have a claim ? #MeToo

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Whataboutery again. You're best off covering yourself in bubble wrap or cotton wool, just in case.

No need to do that. Most men are respectful. When intoxicated and in groups, it can be somewhat intimidating for women on their own. Particularly so if they have experienced harrassment before.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

No need to do that. Most men are respectful. When intoxicated and in groups, it can be somewhat intimidating for women on their own. Particularly so if they have experienced harrassment before.

You ever seen a hen do in a gay bar ?

Like lions on a gnu. Completely terrifying.

Respect is not just for men towards women.

Sunflower 27

PeterParker957 wrote: »

You ever seen a hen do in a gay bar ?

Like lions on a gnu. Completely terrifying.

Respect is not just for men towards women.

I don't recall saying it was only one-sided? I am speaking about the video on this thread.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I don't recall saying it was only one-sided? I am speaking about the video on this thread.

I'm speaking generally - plus in regard to "men must be respectful".

Respect is earned, not demanded.

Sunflower 27

PeterParker957 wrote: »

I'm speaking generally - plus in regard to "men must be respectful".

Respect is earned, not demanded.

Not everyone is going to find drunken jeering respectful. You are clearly still very angry. Hopefully that will pass soon.

PeterParker957

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Not everyone is going to find drunken jeering respectful. You are clearly still very angry. Hopefully that will pass soon.

One day you'll get the real world.

Sunflower 27

PeterParker957 wrote: »

One day you'll get the real world.

Captain Obvious

PeterParker957 wrote: »

A man has just asked me where the bathroom is.

Do I have a claim ? #MeToo

It's great that you are a strong independent woman and all but is it really that hard to accept that some people aren't? Is it necessary to disparage people simply because they may be shy and might have an issue with a group of drunken football fans shouting at them as they buy underwear?

You are right when you say respect must be earned but isn't there a base level of respect that everyone should be afforded in going about their everyday lives?

brooke 2

PeterParker957 wrote: »

If anyone says it like that they deserve a dig - whatever happened to "excuse me ?"

So, she is stopped by a bunch of obviously drunk guys, who block her way in an intimidating fashion, rudely asking her what she has just purchased, and SHE deserves a dig because she does not politely say 'excuse me' to these boozy loons. Now is there anything ridiculous about that statement? :rolleyes:

PeterParker957

brooke 2 wrote: »

So, she is stopped by a bunch of obviously drunk guys, who block her way in an intimidating fashion, rudely asking her what she has just purchased, and SHE deserves a dig because she does not politely say 'excuse me' to these boozy loons. Now is there anything ridiculous about that statement? :rolleyes:

I didn't say her specifically - the poster said "get out of my way" - someone is joking and you get all ar**y like that ? Not cool.

Stonedpilot

Nothing against having the craic but these fools are an embarrassment to men. How old are they 12?. Getting excited for a pair of knickers. This video is more derogatory to men then women. Do these fellas buy the Sun for page 3 and 'yer ones with the big diddies'? Sad immature horny men.

Grown men shouting their heads off for a pair of knickers in a bag. Shows Irish men to be primitive uncultured slobs.
Truly sad cases.

Can think of 10,000 more interesting things to do when abroard supporting a team than that like actually talking to the women in foreign countries (sober!),and they might get lucky with ya though not gonna leave much of an impression approaching them polluted in the day and stinking of stale ale.

brooke 2

Captain Obvious wrote: »

It's great that you are a strong independent woman and all but is it really that hard to accept that some people aren't? Is it necessary to disparage people simply because they may be shy and might have an issue with a group of drunken football fans shouting at them as they buy underwear?

You are right when you say respect must be earned but isn't there a base level of respect that everyone should be afforded in going about their everyday lives?

+100

I don't know why it is so hard for some people to understand that a crowd of gorilla sounding men baying outside the entrance to a lingerie shop would be very intimidating for some women. I just don't.

It's one thing for those guys to be drinking on the street, (seems to have been ok except for those who were kicking footballs around and aiming them at the store windows, :eek:) but to line up, with cameras in hand, at the door of Victoria's Secret, whooping and shouting at any woman who exited the shop, sure what was wrong with that? Apart from anything else, it was cringeworthy. Bunch of neanderthals!! :mad:

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Your sarcastic tone is horrendous as a tool for debate. I've given my experiences of following teams week in and week out. You've given nothing.

Are you actually saying that no one needs to ever worry about drunken Irish fans because they are ALL just having the craic and NONE of them would ever cross that line to making someone feel intimidated, threatened or worse?

And this is based on your limited experience of away matches. Really??

Don Kiddick

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Are you actually saying that no one needs to ever worry about drunken Irish fans because they are ALL just having the craic and NONE of them would ever cross that line to making someone feel intimidated, threatened or worse?

And this is based on your limited experience of away matches. Really??

We're straying into strawmaning now

Sunflower 27

Don Kiddick wrote: »

We're staying into strawmaning now

No, actually. The poster stated that from their experience Irish fans dont intimidate because they just have the craic. No one needs to worry because they are the good fans. It's a really silly statement. Not silly, more ridiculous.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Are you actually saying that no one needs to ever worry about drunken Irish fans because they are ALL just having the craic and NONE of them would ever cross that line to making someone feel intimidated, threatened or worse?

And this is based on your limited experience of away matches. Really??

Nope, I'm saying I've never seen it with Ireland fans. I've never heard of it second hand either. That's it.

PeterParker957

Omackeral wrote: »

Nope, I'm saying I've never seen it with Ireland fans. I've never heard of it second hand either. That's it.

And I've never experienced it as a woman going to Everton home games since age 6 and away games since 10.

Sunflower 27

Omackeral wrote: »

Nope, I'm saying I've never seen it with Ireland fans. I've never heard of it second hand either. That's it.

Ok, so you accept irish fans may have been abusive, threatening or been arrested for similar. You just haven't heard of it personally.

I recall reading about one particularly vicious assault in Paris. I'm sure less severe behaviour doesnt make the national press.

Omackeral

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

No, actually. The poster stated that from their experience Irish fans dont intimidate because they just have the craic. No one needs to worry because they are the good fans. It's a really silly statement. Not silly, more ridiculous.

Just because you keep repeating something, it's not gonna make it any more true.

Why can't you grasp this simple concept; I've been away with the Boys in Green. All the times I've been there I've never seen one skirmish or one ounce or hint of trouble. None. I was in Poznan for a full week in 2012, the Mayor asked us all to come back. I've been in Cyprus, stayed in Ayia Napa. Nobody in a green jersey was stopped by the police. This is the point I'm making. I have literal experience among it. Again, one more time, I've never seen any hooliganism from the Irish fans abroad. Plenty from the Dutch, Swedes, English and nearly every other nation you care to mention.

I don't make judgements on people based on what-ifs, I go by the behaviour I've seen exhibited by them already, and in this case, some of it was first hand. Now I'm done talking to you because you're just dealing in whataboutery and strawmanning and it's tiresome. Good luck.