Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power [Amazon] *Spoilers*

OwaynOTT

I kinda liked it. Your man with Galadriel is defo Sauron though

Mr.Prodston

I expected it to be awful, but was pleasantly surprised by how intrigued I was to watch more!

For reference: I read The Hobbit at 10. The LOTR movies began a year later, loved them. And have only maybe watched the series once since then, roughly 10 years ago. The Hobbit movies were awful. So I'm a casual fan, and have forgotten far more than I remember

Tristram

Decent start that has interest piqued. Looking forward to see how it plays out.

silverharp

Interesting comparison, also highlights one of the fundamental flaws in this one (for now) , lotr was story about an unlikely group of heroes , much more compelling story than this

https://twitter.com/mynerdyhome/status/1565792551721963521

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562845#Comment_119562845

They're not Irish accents. They're Harfoots 😋

Watched the two episodes last night. I'm interested, I want to see more. The acting is a bit hammy and I kept finding logical inconsistencies.

The Elves have no word for death? They can die, they have weapons and anger. Surely someone has killed someone else.

What was Galadriel doing with the rope on the raft? She was pulling some rope for no reason.

Why do the dwarf guards have a funny bobbing walk? Maybe they got children to play them.

What did the orc do with all the dirt in the tunnel he was digging? Haven't they watched The Great Escape?

Why does the smith elf need the tower built so quickly? He's immortal, surely time means less to him.

I'm just being pedantic.

Hope the first episodes are a slow burn.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563030#Comment_119563030

Tolkien did this in his readings, rolled his Rrrrs ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asPqOq9GXxs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKXIM2QkCRg

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119565636#Comment_119565636

It makes sense as he was very much steeped in the older epics. The longer rhotic /r/ came to us from Old English via Greek. It started to go out of fashion in London and the south of Britain in the 18th century where it became identified as a sound of the regions and a sign of a lack of education. That eventually became the non-rhotic /ah/ sound in RP. Parts of the US linked to Britain at that time also picked it up as did Commonwealth countries in time. Ireland, some parts of Britain and most of the North America today continue with the rhotic /r/.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563595#Comment_119563595

They can't destroy anything. If you don't like the new stuff just ignore it.

The point here is that this is blatantly aimed at pulling in LOTR fans from the most rabid to the very casual viewers who have invested in that world and there are armies of them. It's equally aimed at boosting Amazon subscriptions!

Some fans really will not like what has been produced. If there are enough fans unhappy with it then this will not last beyond this one and only season. This was the risk they took and so far it's not shaping up that well, even for the people who've only heard of LOTR.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566017#Comment_119566017

Yes I agree but that in no way "destroyed" Tolkien or any enjoyment of what came before.

I'm sick to death of whingebags talking about how Trek/SW or whatever is ruined or destroyed. It's so over the top.

corkie

@breezy1985 Don't like the other comment that goes with it 'turning in their graves' Gene/Tolkien.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566214#Comment_119566214

Whatever about Tolkien who built a really deep universe Gene and George were winging it.

Star Trek has absolutely zero lore, backstory or world building. The Jedi rules were made up as Lucas went along.

pjohnson

Yeah the depth Tolkien gave his world means its very hard to "destroy". He left very few outright holes in the key lore. (Plenty of wiggle room between but the key parts are all locked so no damaging retcons can be achieved.)

And the caveat is with the large kinda hilarious exception of Tom Bombadil whom Tolkien left literally no notes for and actually just called a mystery when he was asked.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119562838#Comment_119562838

So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”

https://lrmonline.com/news/what-material-does-amazon-have-the-rights-to-for-the-rings-of-power-answered/

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566398#Comment_119566398

I never understood the upset when he was left out of the movies. An absolutely pointless character who just comes across as a man who identifies as an Ent or something.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566464#Comment_119566464

Hes a great amusing joke for books but would be a disaster on screen (tv or film) as too many general audience fans would just get completely stuck on him.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566464#Comment_119566464

Was such a shame, LOTR trilogy could have had its very own Jar Jar Binks😝

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566490#Comment_119566490

Yousa thinking bout goin to Mordor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566449#Comment_119566449

Yeah I know that but they should just have completely skipped it, rather than what we got. My wife paused it and asked what the hell it all meant. There was no need to mention the Two Trees, or anything in Valinor for that matter. Just fight Morgoth and then open on the hunt for Sauron, his most fierce servant.

No need to bring Galadriel into it, or Elrond, and make her such a different character. Just make a new one. The lore is open enough to insert characters, just do not rewrite the existing key touch points. By referencing Valinor and the Trees they highlight what they do not have but, most egregiously, act like they never happened. It completely changes character motivations (which ripple all the way to the 3rd Age)

That the 2nd Age last for so long would not even be a matter, with the immortality of an elf. It could have been an anthology of the 2nd Age with the waxing of Numenor told through that methodology all the way to the fall

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566540#Comment_119566540

Thats why this isn't canon. I thought that was accepted by everyone by now?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566549#Comment_119566549

Of course it's not canon but if you are going to only pay lip-service don't bother calling it Lord Of The Rings. At the very least don't start an offensive against people who expected LOTR, based on what was originally promised, as news of the production started coming out.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566549#Comment_119566549

It's not just that though, if you weren't already familiar with the lore, are these elements sufficiently explained on screen to register with the 'casual' viewer?

I'm going to say no.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566567#Comment_119566567

I'm not joking, my wife did ask what the hell was that entire section about.

There was no need for it. It only confused her and annoyed me, the casual and the book-wanker

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566566#Comment_119566566

Oh yeah the bait and switch is a massive own goal that has put the show on a uphill struggle with its own target audience.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566567#Comment_119566567

God no. But it pretty clear that the writers grasp on the lore themselves could barely be called "casual".

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566540#Comment_119566540

If we were to go by the books do elves age and have a young adult period like we see Elrond and Galadriel in this show ?

Brian?

The interpersonal interactions are all a bit weird. Galadriel is the great great aunt of Gil Galad but she has to ask Elrond to get an audience.

I feel they’ve minimised her into a plucky outcast, when she’s actually been a oldie royalty for over a thousand years.

I’ve gone full nerd.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566811#Comment_119566811

Nope. They are forever young. They hit adulthood and don’t age a day.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566881#Comment_119566881

So they are children at some stage.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566894#Comment_119566894

Apparently. So if age doesn't really mean anything then Elrond marrying Galadriels daughter isn't an issue.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566894#Comment_119566894

Children, yeah. But Elrond is already centuries old in this.

I've realised quickly that this will be one I will watch without checking in with the fans and the internet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567052#Comment_119567052

To immortals does a few centuries matter?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567495#Comment_119567495

I don’t get the reply? My point is that they hit the age he looks now when they are adults and then don’t age a day from there.

fritzelly

I'm no fanboi and thoroughly enjoyed the first two episodes and can't wait for the rest

But how the hell does a tv episode cost so much money? Is this going to be the norm that a shows single season costs a billion dollars??? Staggering amount of money

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567830#Comment_119567830

Rights purchase

Ave Sodalis

I hate that I don't hate it...

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

I suppose if it goes to 10 seasons the cost per season is minimal.

I have no problem if this strays from Tolkien's original works. LotR trilogy knew when to stray and when to keep faithful.

The Hobbit: The Tolkien Edit is actually a pretty alright movie. Very watchable. Apparently the same guy made a separate feature film out of all the parts he cut from the Hobbit, but I have not seen it.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

Hadn't factored that in and guess it's not cheap to acquire them but a billion dollars?

johnny_ultimate

The estimated / reported budget is $465m for the season. Crazy amount of money for eight episodes of television, and far more equivalent to blockbuster feature film money. But one thing’s for sure: the money is on screen. Physical sets, loads of exterior shooting (much missed in The Hobbit), copious CG shots, action setpieces… Then add to that the start-up costs associated with a show like this, which will inevitably be pretty high.

It’s unprecedented stuff for sure and pretty obscene to see any studio having that amount of money to play around with. But at least the end product is something that wouldn’t look out of place in a multiplex screen given the sheer lavishness and spectacle of its production. Honestly, it looks and sounds significantly better than pretty much anything Marvel has put out in cinemas IMO.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567894#Comment_119567894

The 465 figure is for production alone (which is no small figure), not counting advertising/promotion etc - with estimates saying its around the billion dollar mark all told

liamtech

MY TAKE

Background - I am someone who read both LOTR and the Hobbit years ago - never read The Silmarillion but i am familiar with the story thanks to various synopsis that i have read over the years. I did go through a Tolkien Phase when the Trilogy ended, so my familiarity with the second age comes mainly from LOTR's descriptions of events - and verious fan wikis including encyclopedia of Arda

Bottom line - i am a fan - but not a fanatic - im sure many here have more of the lore to heart than I

For comparison -

• LOTR Film Trilogy 9/10 with 'The Two Towers' actually being my fav (prob 8/10, 10/10, and 9/10 individually)
• The Hobbit Trilogy 5/10 - an unfortunate money grabbing bloat fest of a great (short) story (4/10, 7/10, 5/10)

The Rings of Power - 3/10 - Visually stunning, but all too flawed fictional adaption. The writing has been on the wall for a while. When i considered what i knew of the second age, i knew they were going to pad this out (to the extent that it would make the Hobbit Trilogy look fast paced). This in itself would not have been a terminal issue, assuming the maintained a relatively straightforward grip on Canon and Lore.

Which they have not -

• Galadriel is not a warrior. She never was. Clearly the writers decided they wanted a female to be the main character, hence this massive retcon
• Galadriel's Husband is missing. For what ever reason they have ret-coned Celeborne out of the second age. Iv seen various commentary on inter-sectional feminism as being the core reason for this. I am NOT going to go there, or get into any discussions on this. Suffice it to say, this retcon is quite annoying for me, as he would be an OBVIOUS side kick for Galadriel.
• The pacing of these two episodes is VERY VERY poor. What is interesting is too short, and what is long is uninteresting (IMHO)
• The casting choices are not great. And NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO RACE OR ETHNICITY - i actually never really care about that kinda thing. I just dont think Clark is a good enough actress to carry this. Elrond is... OK - Gilgalad is not as i imagined him at all
• The Hobbits accents - maybe its an Irish-centric reaction but OMG CRINGE

I have heard some speculation on various mediums so below are potential spoilers for future episodes. As i have seen some of this referenced i will assume we are OK to discuss this (avert eyes to avoid potential Spoilers)

Halbrand as Sauron - This would be a serious problem for me. having not read the books in a long time im speaking from memory. But Sauron should be in the East ATM. Rebuilding his forces. And when he reappears it will be in his angelic guise as Annatar, lord of gifts (he can take on different forms, which has me VERY WORRIED that this rumor is true). Anyway Annatar then tricks Celebrimbor into creating the Rings etc etc - Sauron in a Raft - and the supposed possible romantic links to Galadriel - this would be the death of the show for me - i can forgive many things but this would be insanity

Mystery Meteor Man as a Wizard - even more insanity - there are NO WIZARDS in Middle Earth during this period. Very poor if they do this.

Bottom line - look il probably watch it for now, but every time they do something that is out of place i get a sore head. I have read many different reviews both here, and online in general. Some people value the retcons. Some point out it was never going to be canon.

Your entitled to your opinions of course. But for the life of me i dont see the reason for these changes. Unless you subscribe to the theory that diversification is essential in ALL PRODUCTIONS AND ADAPTIONS - in which case i wish they had just left Tolkien alone TBH

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566449#Comment_119566449

Having rights to things and being able to actually use them are two different things. The LOTR and Hobbit trilogies have effectively written off most of that as a viable audience puller. I've seen comments from the showrunners that they are really only using the Appendices and any lore that comes from that plus what they can make up themselves. Not having rights to The Silmarillion is no great loss TBH. It's dense, very complex to read and it is his son's version of a massive corpus of notes that were never ordered into book form.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568060#Comment_119568060

I would disagree on the casting. I have been really surprised on how good Clark is but I think Elrond is a pain the hole. I'de agree too about the pacing and choice of time per storyline.

I would be shocked if we don't see wizards because that's what casual LotR fans expect for a Tolkien show.

As for the Silmarillion which everyone seems to think this is an adaptation of things could not be further from the truth. Amazon do not have rights to that book or any of the other history & lore books so many characters may be missing or changed.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

The rights were "only" $250 million; season one is $465 million for 8 episodes or about 4x as much per episode as season 8 of GoT (but GoT could have used a higher CGI budget in general so I don't see it as an absolute as such).

On a different note if I was an amazon executive this would honestly scare me (top 100 tv-shows as per the site):

This is only a snapshot obviously but clearly episode 2 is not doing well by comparison which would indicate a lack of general interest after watching the first episode from the audience.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568122#Comment_119568122

i tend to agree RE the Wizards - its been dramatically hinted at in both Eps - what i mean is that this would be a MASSIVE change from the source material - It would be the equiv of the Borg showing up on Strange New Worlds - It cannot sync with the lore/canon - the wizards show up AFTER the Last Alliance, and the finding of the Ring by Isildur (film fans, that is the prologue to the Film Trilogy)

Again maybe this doesnt matter to people - All i can say is it matters to me - in terms of changes that i like dislike:

• Black Elves and Dwarfs - No problem for me
• Non canon characters - inevitable considering the period - fine by me
• The sketched over prologue of Morgoth - yea i get it - a rights thing - Fine, il accept
• The condensed timeline (i admit this had to be explained to me as i havent read the books in an age - seemingly they are going to have all events of the second age take place over a single human lifespan etc - a few years anyway - instead of thousands of years) - annoying but i get it - and il accept
• Harfoot/Hobbits - ok its for average viewers - il accept
• Warrior Galadriel - VERY annoying and out of character - simple make her an original character who is Galadriels bestie and it would have solved the issue - i will GRUDGINGLY accept
• Celeborne - ??? MIA? not even mentioned? VERY annoying - we have to wait and see him (if they exclude him altogether over the course of the series that would be a massive mistake IMHO)
• Sauron on a raft as a human - WTF? NO - thats a blunder
• Sauron/Galadriel romantic overtones - oh no this would be a disaster - i mean it would literally ruin this show
• Wizards - Ok now its just nosedived for me, and is hard to take seriously

Thats my take on what i can deal with and what makes my head hurt - for what its worth happy to discuss

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567857#Comment_119567857

Me too.

One simple thing: make the main character not Galadriel and I’d really like it.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568263#Comment_119568263

On the warrior Galadriel thing. How do we know she wasn’t? I’m not saying she was, but she doesn’t get much page time until LOTR.

silverharp

Doesnt seem clever to have hired a couple of amateur show runners to run a billion dollar show

Brief_Lives

I was a little disappointed, but maybe I am not in touch with the original writings, as I was looking forward to this..

namloc1980

It's very dull and plodding so far. Galadriel is not likeable and Clark's acting is wooden, she has the same expression for every scene.

The world also is lifeless. We get to see large cities like Lindon and Eregion but no sense of place or that they are lived in.

Not to mention the silly Irish accents of the Harfoots.

Still haven't found a reasonable explanation for the stone/boat metaphor.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568263#Comment_119568263

I don't think the lad on the raft is Sauron and Galadriel led armies again Dol Guldor so that doesn't bother me.

I am worried by all the budding relationships. Elrond is clearly mad about Galadriel too and it's unnecessary to be constantly linking characters romantically.

And the Borg did show up in Enterprise 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568334#Comment_119568334

It's the same with Star Trek and Star Wars and I hate it.

They can't just give us new characters everyone has to be a memberberry character.