Lord of the Rings - [Amazon] *Spoilers*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567052#Comment_119567052

To immortals does a few centuries matter?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567495#Comment_119567495

I don’t get the reply? My point is that they hit the age he looks now when they are adults and then don’t age a day from there.

fritzelly

I'm no fanboi and thoroughly enjoyed the first two episodes and can't wait for the rest

But how the hell does a tv episode cost so much money? Is this going to be the norm that a shows single season costs a billion dollars??? Staggering amount of money

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567830#Comment_119567830

Rights purchase

Ave Sodalis

I hate that I don't hate it...

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

I suppose if it goes to 10 seasons the cost per season is minimal.

I have no problem if this strays from Tolkien's original works. LotR trilogy knew when to stray and when to keep faithful.

The Hobbit: The Tolkien Edit is actually a pretty alright movie. Very watchable. Apparently the same guy made a separate feature film out of all the parts he cut from the Hobbit, but I have not seen it.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

Hadn't factored that in and guess it's not cheap to acquire them but a billion dollars?

johnny_ultimate

The estimated / reported budget is $465m for the season. Crazy amount of money for eight episodes of television, and far more equivalent to blockbuster feature film money. But one thing’s for sure: the money is on screen. Physical sets, loads of exterior shooting (much missed in The Hobbit), copious CG shots, action setpieces… Then add to that the start-up costs associated with a show like this, which will inevitably be pretty high.

It’s unprecedented stuff for sure and pretty obscene to see any studio having that amount of money to play around with. But at least the end product is something that wouldn’t look out of place in a multiplex screen given the sheer lavishness and spectacle of its production. Honestly, it looks and sounds significantly better than pretty much anything Marvel has put out in cinemas IMO.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567894#Comment_119567894

The 465 figure is for production alone (which is no small figure), not counting advertising/promotion etc - with estimates saying its around the billion dollar mark all told

liamtech

MY TAKE

Background - I am someone who read both LOTR and the Hobbit years ago - never read The Silmarillion but i am familiar with the story thanks to various synopsis that i have read over the years. I did go through a Tolkien Phase when the Trilogy ended, so my familiarity with the second age comes mainly from LOTR's descriptions of events - and verious fan wikis including encyclopedia of Arda

Bottom line - i am a fan - but not a fanatic - im sure many here have more of the lore to heart than I

For comparison -

• LOTR Film Trilogy 9/10 with 'The Two Towers' actually being my fav (prob 8/10, 10/10, and 9/10 individually)
• The Hobbit Trilogy 5/10 - an unfortunate money grabbing bloat fest of a great (short) story (4/10, 7/10, 5/10)

The Rings of Power - 3/10 - Visually stunning, but all too flawed fictional adaption. The writing has been on the wall for a while. When i considered what i knew of the second age, i knew they were going to pad this out (to the extent that it would make the Hobbit Trilogy look fast paced). This in itself would not have been a terminal issue, assuming the maintained a relatively straightforward grip on Canon and Lore.

Which they have not -

• Galadriel is not a warrior. She never was. Clearly the writers decided they wanted a female to be the main character, hence this massive retcon
• Galadriel's Husband is missing. For what ever reason they have ret-coned Celeborne out of the second age. Iv seen various commentary on inter-sectional feminism as being the core reason for this. I am NOT going to go there, or get into any discussions on this. Suffice it to say, this retcon is quite annoying for me, as he would be an OBVIOUS side kick for Galadriel.
• The pacing of these two episodes is VERY VERY poor. What is interesting is too short, and what is long is uninteresting (IMHO)
• The casting choices are not great. And NO I AM NOT REFERRING TO RACE OR ETHNICITY - i actually never really care about that kinda thing. I just dont think Clark is a good enough actress to carry this. Elrond is... OK - Gilgalad is not as i imagined him at all
• The Hobbits accents - maybe its an Irish-centric reaction but OMG CRINGE

I have heard some speculation on various mediums so below are potential spoilers for future episodes. As i have seen some of this referenced i will assume we are OK to discuss this (avert eyes to avoid potential Spoilers)

Halbrand as Sauron - This would be a serious problem for me. having not read the books in a long time im speaking from memory. But Sauron should be in the East ATM. Rebuilding his forces. And when he reappears it will be in his angelic guise as Annatar, lord of gifts (he can take on different forms, which has me VERY WORRIED that this rumor is true). Anyway Annatar then tricks Celebrimbor into creating the Rings etc etc - Sauron in a Raft - and the supposed possible romantic links to Galadriel - this would be the death of the show for me - i can forgive many things but this would be insanity

Mystery Meteor Man as a Wizard - even more insanity - there are NO WIZARDS in Middle Earth during this period. Very poor if they do this.

Bottom line - look il probably watch it for now, but every time they do something that is out of place i get a sore head. I have read many different reviews both here, and online in general. Some people value the retcons. Some point out it was never going to be canon.

Your entitled to your opinions of course. But for the life of me i dont see the reason for these changes. Unless you subscribe to the theory that diversification is essential in ALL PRODUCTIONS AND ADAPTIONS - in which case i wish they had just left Tolkien alone TBH

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566449#Comment_119566449

Having rights to things and being able to actually use them are two different things. The LOTR and Hobbit trilogies have effectively written off most of that as a viable audience puller. I've seen comments from the showrunners that they are really only using the Appendices and any lore that comes from that plus what they can make up themselves. Not having rights to The Silmarillion is no great loss TBH. It's dense, very complex to read and it is his son's version of a massive corpus of notes that were never ordered into book form.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568060#Comment_119568060

I would disagree on the casting. I have been really surprised on how good Clark is but I think Elrond is a pain the hole. I'de agree too about the pacing and choice of time per storyline.

I would be shocked if we don't see wizards because that's what casual LotR fans expect for a Tolkien show.

As for the Silmarillion which everyone seems to think this is an adaptation of things could not be further from the truth. Amazon do not have rights to that book or any of the other history & lore books so many characters may be missing or changed.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567849#Comment_119567849

The rights were "only" $250 million; season one is $465 million for 8 episodes or about 4x as much per episode as season 8 of GoT (but GoT could have used a higher CGI budget in general so I don't see it as an absolute as such).

On a different note if I was an amazon executive this would honestly scare me (top 100 tv-shows as per the site):

This is only a snapshot obviously but clearly episode 2 is not doing well by comparison which would indicate a lack of general interest after watching the first episode from the audience.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568122#Comment_119568122

i tend to agree RE the Wizards - its been dramatically hinted at in both Eps - what i mean is that this would be a MASSIVE change from the source material - It would be the equiv of the Borg showing up on Strange New Worlds - It cannot sync with the lore/canon - the wizards show up AFTER the Last Alliance, and the finding of the Ring by Isildur (film fans, that is the prologue to the Film Trilogy)

Again maybe this doesnt matter to people - All i can say is it matters to me - in terms of changes that i like dislike:

• Black Elves and Dwarfs - No problem for me
• Non canon characters - inevitable considering the period - fine by me
• The sketched over prologue of Morgoth - yea i get it - a rights thing - Fine, il accept
• The condensed timeline (i admit this had to be explained to me as i havent read the books in an age - seemingly they are going to have all events of the second age take place over a single human lifespan etc - a few years anyway - instead of thousands of years) - annoying but i get it - and il accept
• Harfoot/Hobbits - ok its for average viewers - il accept
• Warrior Galadriel - VERY annoying and out of character - simple make her an original character who is Galadriels bestie and it would have solved the issue - i will GRUDGINGLY accept
• Celeborne - ??? MIA? not even mentioned? VERY annoying - we have to wait and see him (if they exclude him altogether over the course of the series that would be a massive mistake IMHO)
• Sauron on a raft as a human - WTF? NO - thats a blunder
• Sauron/Galadriel romantic overtones - oh no this would be a disaster - i mean it would literally ruin this show
• Wizards - Ok now its just nosedived for me, and is hard to take seriously

Thats my take on what i can deal with and what makes my head hurt - for what its worth happy to discuss

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567857#Comment_119567857

Me too.

One simple thing: make the main character not Galadriel and I’d really like it.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568263#Comment_119568263

On the warrior Galadriel thing. How do we know she wasn’t? I’m not saying she was, but she doesn’t get much page time until LOTR.

silverharp

Doesnt seem clever to have hired a couple of amateur show runners to run a billion dollar show

Brief_Lives

I was a little disappointed, but maybe I am not in touch with the original writings, as I was looking forward to this..

namloc1980

It's very dull and plodding so far. Galadriel is not likeable and Clark's acting is wooden, she has the same expression for every scene.

The world also is lifeless. We get to see large cities like Lindon and Eregion but no sense of place or that they are lived in.

Not to mention the silly Irish accents of the Harfoots.

Still haven't found a reasonable explanation for the stone/boat metaphor.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568263#Comment_119568263

I don't think the lad on the raft is Sauron and Galadriel led armies again Dol Guldor so that doesn't bother me.

I am worried by all the budding relationships. Elrond is clearly mad about Galadriel too and it's unnecessary to be constantly linking characters romantically.

And the Borg did show up in Enterprise 😁

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568334#Comment_119568334

It's the same with Star Trek and Star Wars and I hate it.

They can't just give us new characters everyone has to be a memberberry character.

gmisk

Only watched episode 1 so far.

I have seen the LOTR films (once or twice) and enjoyed them, not seen any of the Hobbit films.

It certainly looks the part, I thought Morfydd Clark was really solid, she is a terrific actress (Saint Maud she was outstanding).

The oirish accents from the Harfoots (I think that is correct name - basically the Hobbits) was a bit distracting initially. I do also think the head elf (I think..) Benjamin Walker is an extremely limited actor though.

The elf/human couple sure why not.

One question I had.

Spoiler Warning

So the healer human character...why did her son go raiding the shed now for that evil weapon? Surely his mum has left him in the house before...or is it more he is drawn to it? Forgive my ignorance.

I will watch the next one I do find it very lush and escape wise enjoyable if slight story wise and familiar.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'd be a casual fan in that I've seen the LOTR trilogy (though not the Hobbit ones). Haven't read the books. Essentially what I'm looking for from this show is some fun sword battles, nice musical score, enjoyable visuals, and characters to root for. In this regard, I thought it was alright, although I'm lukewarm on the characters so far.

Issues for me would be: Sauron comes across as 'a bad guy because he's a bad guy'; Galadriel's brother was revealed for about five minutes, so his death didn't have much of an impact; Galadriel defeating the monster effectively by herself felt a bit Mary Sue-esque; a meteorite blazes across the sky and catches everybody's attention before slamming into the ground, yet only two of those Harfoots show up to check it out? None of them come to investigate the wizard guy (Gandalf?) whose cacophonous roar fells trees?

It's easily better than Wheel of Time though, so I'll keep watching.

jones

I've only watched the first episode but i dig it so far. I love LOTRs but wouldn't call myself a superfan i.e. i've never read the Silmarillion or any other addition pieces outside LOTRs. I've read the LOTRs books again recently, watched the extended edition films multiple times (yes even the Hobbit - seriously watch the extended edition of the battle of the five armies - it turns a mess of a film into something far better although still not a patch on LOTR). So i'm a fan and most likely the target audience for a show like this.

For me the show looks and sounds incredible, you can really see where the budget went. I'm intrigued to see where they go with the story. I've no problem with Galadriel being a warrior princess of sorts and people saying about the missing husband there is still time for him to show up again no big deal.

The pacing is a little slow in the first episode but it is only the first episode. Lets be honest Tolkien liked his pacing slow as well in fact didn't it take Frodo ten years to leave Hobbiton with the ring :-). As for the apparent 'woke casting' it doesn't bother me at all although i'm not a fan of just putting the token "minority" into a role just to fill an imaginary quota there was nothing here that seemed out of place. I've no problem with dwarfish women without beards either. So yeah none of that bothers me.

I'll be watching the whole series and am excited as to where it goes. 8/10 for first episode

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119568353#Comment_119568353

As far as i am aware we know that she wasnt a warrior - While Tolkien didnt write her as the traditional female stay-at-home mom - he also did not make her a warrior. She always struck me as a Queen-Like character that preserves her realm, and inspires great loyalty and courage.

FYI more info here

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadriel#Second_Age

Look its a retcon but as i said i would grudgingly accept it - although i believe it unnecessary - they could have created a new female Elf who was inspired by Galadriel both literally and metaphorically - instead they retconed

It is an interesting point you make, which ties in with what i have seen of the show runners - but if you think about it, 'Tolkien never specified that X didnt happen' can really be used to justify anything. And this could have been used VERY cleverly, albeit sparingly - the occupation of the Easterlings villages by Elves (perhaps occupation is too far, but effectively a watch on them) - nicely done IMHO

The Lady of Lorien's previous existence as a vengeance seeking badass heroine with a sword - no - that is a bit much - and if the rumors RE Halbrand are true (that he falls for her etc) - and then he turns out to be Sauron - well, we just have to wait and see - but i would be signing off at that stage

Using 'Tolkien never specified that X' could seriously ruin this show - I hope im wrong though

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569813#Comment_119569813

If she does fall for Sauron I'm out too. That's far too much Discovery level personal drama bllsht. I honestly just see him being a Strider clone who turns out to be a Numenor prince or something.

She did help drive Sauron out of Dol Guldor and repelled 3 invasions during the War of the Ring but personally I always pictured her as a Gandalf style leader rather than Aragorn.

If I was writing I would have her pushing her quest politically and maybe sending a few elves (like your suggested character) off to do the adventure bit.

Something tells me though if it was a new made up female warrior a lot of people currently unhappy would still be proclaiming Mary Sues and Tolkien "destroyed"

JaneFreez

To be honest, I really liked it. It will be much better in the next chapters.

BruteStock

Amazons Galadriel is like the overly strict teacher you sat in class terrified of if you hadn't your homework done. This hero isn't relatable at all , then again Tolkien did not create his story around the traditional hero , especially not the Marvel , Star Wars hero archetype that's depicted here.

Tolkien was passionate about the idea of the unexpected hero. Like Samwise Gamgee who began the story as a gardener for Frodo and ended it overcoming the impossible odds that felled and corrupted many others... . "Come, Mr. Frodo he cried. I can't carry it for you , but I can carry you"

The Bozo's Amazon hired have missed the point of the story entirely.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119569964#Comment_119569964

TBH the latest rumours are far worse than her, falling for Sauron - while i would consider it ridiculous for that to happen (and would probably sign off anyway) - some might be able to balance it with the idea of Sauron, being the master of manipulation, and disguise.

But no - the latest Rumour

• Halbrand falls for Galadriel
• Galadriel gives him the push, as he is human - etc etc etc
• Halbrand Gets annoyed, and decides this 'second chance' and 'being nice' business is over-rated - he is gonna be himself because Galadriel didnt fancy him
• Halbrand reveals himself to be Sauron
• Sauron is effectively like an Incel

I kid you not - that is what is now doing the rounds -

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119570182#Comment_119570182

That would be a massive rewrite even by the standards of this show because Sauron was not a human to begin with. He was a lower level angel to use IRL language.

The main assumption is he will be the "Eminem" character we have yet to see.

pjohnson

Jaysus is they are full on lobotomizing Galadriel its a disgrace. She was the near solitary voice that WASN'T buying any of Saurons guff while he was in disguise as Annatar.

She never trusted him and that is in fact one of the big reasons he grew to be terrified of her.

If they flub that basic point they are morons.