Lord of the Rings - [Amazon] *Spoilers*

liamtech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE4g7nKVXjw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjeBqoJg4Ug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0LQuZyvDHY

So iv been following Disparu for a while. He came to my attention during Kenobi (which FYI, I hated) - his reviews are informative, but INCREDIBLY funny. for example he is doing She-Hulk too, and OMG - i get more enjoyment out of his weekly review, than i do the show itself

ANYWAY! lol - i thought i would put it here - i agree with his criticisms - i am practically praying it picks up (and the canon isnt further butchered) - but Disparu is still objectively funny, and a great new reviewer - so, see what ye reckon!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578821#Comment_119578821

"CANON DESTROYED" "RED FLAG" "HATES FANS" and some weird outraged journalists bllsht about Top Gun.

Sounds like the usual angry loser YouTube reviewer to me.

I don't know how people watch this stuff. I mean Kenobi absolutely sucked so why the hell do I then want to watch an incel cry about it.

sekiro

Yeah, I am not really super impressed by the "YouTube critics" of this show either.

The best I have watched, and it's a channel I have watched for a long time, is from the "Men of the West" channel and I think his criticisms really align with the kind of things I would criticize on the show too.

I think the whole "go woke, go broke" thing is just tired at this point. These companies making these movies and shows are making a fortune and sometimes the accusation that a show or movie is "woke" is a little flimsy to be honest.

Anyway, the guy does a good review of the first two episodes if anyone is interested they can check out his channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuFJ9O6Og8

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578863#Comment_119578863

couldnt resist - But in all fairness, maybe its not your cuppa

For my part, i knew all about the backlash prior to watching episode 1 and 2 - but as i was ACTIVELY WANTING TO LOVE IT, i tried to just ignore it where possible.

Now that i have actually watched it - i can see the backlash is fairly justified. Like i said previously i didnt care at all about the ethnicity of the central cast. I think the single moment of pre-release marketing that gave me a shiver, was the trailer, and warrior Galadriel - and i had honestly hoped it would start and finish in the first episode, and then she would retreat to Lorien - but obviously thats not going to happen. The 'superfans' thing was more Cringe inducing than anything - but i just laughed and assumed someone in marketing had made a terrible mistake -

Anyway - this is all just my opinion (man)

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578895#Comment_119578895

Yea NERD OF THE RINGS done some positive reviews too - but its horribly undermined by the fact he has been sent thousands of dollars worth of Amazon LOTR Merchandise - which we know about, due to his reviews of it -

I think i will just give this a season and see whats what

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573616#Comment_119573616

Yes, I think you could see the early reviews as simply an extension of the shows marketing. If you look at a score for something and it's 90+% with only the early reviewers and then as soon as all critics reviews are allowed it drops down to 80s then it's clear that something is going on there. The early reviewers are taking advantage of their early access to get clicks and views which, of course, equals money. That's undeniable.

Once you start delving into the Youtube reviews then I think it's up to the individual to pick a handful of YouTubers that you like and that you trust. Too many are just there to provide entertainment via drama because that also gets clicks which also, no surprise, equals money.

Thought I also don't think you can criticize the YouTubers or the access media "critics" for being out to make money for themselves when the entire purpose of this Amazon project is to make loads of money. Amazon is obviously capable of hiring writers and producers and actors and all the other associated people required to make a TV show. Purchasing the rights to Tolkien is the bit where the cash grabbing just becomes a bit tacky and unsavory for me. They've made their own generic fantasy show and paid to slap a LOTR label on it in the hopes that the label alone will attract money from customers.

Outlets like The Guardian are more than happy to spread the word that objection to the show is mostly based on racism and sexism but you'd think on some level that an outlet like The Guardian would find a billion dollar TV show to be a kind of disgusting extravagance? Why exactly are they defending an Amazon product? It's under their "culture" section but they aren't that fussed about a massive corporation buying up the rights to cultural works of literature and bastardising them to make even bigger profits? Blocking reviews from the general public etc, in case it damages their profits, is proclaimed a good thing because "trolls"? That's kind of weird.

Nody

Well talking about reviews this is coming from a person who was a network exec and written TV shows previously which highlights some things I've not seen called out but making a lot of sense (such as a big star to center the show with the money involved):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78VDHuFjZYA&t=302s

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578983#Comment_119578983

I think referring to fans as trolls has become the main 'go-to' for big name productions now. Criticism of an IP or a franchise, is now immediately conflated with either toxic fandom, or bigotry - or in some cases both?

My main franchise of choice is Star Trek - and trekkies have for long, had to endure the charge that they are Toxic (at least if they didnt embrace JJ-Trek, or Discovery) - but the argument falls flat on its face when you look at Strange New Worlds, which the overwhelming majority love and admire. As for critics reviews, i have given up on them completely at this stage. The overwhelming number of critics give top marks to Discovery - which to me, as a fan, makes no sense what so ever.

We could also look at Doctor who - the shows canon was butchered by the current show runner Chris Chibnail. Its too much of a Segway for this thread, but suffice it to say, the man retconed the show TO DEATH. And once again, when criticized, various articles appeared throwing shade on 'toxic arrogant fandom', for not 'embracing new ideas' -

I dont believe in the Toxic fandom thesis - while i acknowledge that real bigotry does exist, and perhaps a tiny group of fans may partake, this is a tiny minority - When i see backlashes against fans of DrWho, Trek, and now potentially LOTR - i see passion. People who are devoted to their niche, and dont like it being altered by show runners who feel (and often publicly state) that they are 'improving on the original work', to bring 'modern sensibilities' to it.

Like i said before, i know LOTR up to a point. It is NOT my number one franchise, but I know it well enough to state that what we watched last week was not in line with canon. It has not TERMINALLY DEVIATED from it yet - we can still have a good show, and i remain hopeful - but having now delved into the rumor mill - i am no longer optimistic -

I have practically given up on properly watching discovery (tend to fast-forward through large chunks, or watch it while doing housework) - and i am angry about it. And sometimes i vent on boards. I am probably not going to do that with LOTR - il stick with it for a season (or until [SPOILER] Galadriel and Sauron get it on - #Galadrion) - And i might vent a bit - but then il just leave. Frankly i cant watch another franchise fall into the abyss - and then stick around to be called a misogynist Toxic fan -

ohnonotgmail

Not having read the books I don't care if it ignores them. All that matters is that the show is entertaining. And unfortunately it wasn't. The scence with galadriel on raft was just terrible. it looked like it was filmed in the locals baths.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579098#Comment_119579098

dont agree with everything he says but he nailed Cowboy Bebop - and is on the nose with many of his criticisms

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574522#Comment_119574522

they tend to be right, the "rage reviewers" were red flagging this show last year, I appreciate the effort and the warning to keep expectations low.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119574279#Comment_119574279

you would have to back it up and ask why there is a reaction to woke. Nobody has a problem with women and minorities being in films or shows, the problem is the change in the last 5 or 6 years in the way some of these shows are being written. Take Star Trek , the same people that tend to hate Disco because its woke really enjoy The Expanse and the Orville and both those shows are highly inclusive.

Im just amazed the money people in Hollywood are allowing billions to be left on the table through poor writing and wanting to sell their shows on being woke and attacking fans that disagree? is it the gold rush for streaming content? do they think twitter buys tickets?

In this show they seem to be annoying the inbuilt audience and attacking them on top, the show deserves a good kicking at this stage.

geotrig

I've watched both episodes and enjoyed them both ,originally I didn't think from trailers and screenshots that the lead /Galadrial was cast right but found her ok and better than expected , she is different than LOTR Trilogy but im ok with that as with elrond or any of the elves , the Harfoots accent couldn't really give a toss on what they settled on. More so it left me with intrigue as to where and what happens.

Im happy to let it run and play out to see where the show goes and form my own opinion , if its good ,it'll get re-watched if not ,it wont ,As long as it builds well over the season /next few seasons i'll be somewhat happy .

I don't need some YT or critic to help me break down and episode to minite details or highlight issues that are not really there or really understand the "hidden meanings " behind it all !!

It was never going to be a direct translation from page to screen and decisions have to be made on what to change /drop add etc to fit with TV and inline with times , budget and stories . I'm just glad that there is some more Tolkien universe on the screen and hope it continues and is given time to grow.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579139#Comment_119579139

"Right" is subjective. My biggest issue isn't that they call which show is good or bad but rather whinge and cry about "woke" and "canon". This show definitely has some problems but rather than address the actual artistic issues with the show like adults we get this crap.

Same with Discovery which had a ton of legitimate problems you could pick on but instead you get people saying it's "not Trek" because of politics and tokenism which are both founding principles of Star Trek ( a show who's canon has been all over the place since season 1 of TOS )

So yes "right" is subjective as I like this show enough to watch cause I already have Amazon but would not be sailing the high seas the second it comes out if I didn't.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579204#Comment_119579204

This proves the point for me. The Expanse and Orville are great shows and Disco was crap. It was nothing to do with it being woke but fools jump on that. And no one is "attacking" an audience. You would have to be seriously thin skinned to think a show made the way you don't like is an "attack"

By the way Orville is "woke" as fk.

johnny_ultimate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579204#Comment_119579204

Nah, most of the 'anti-woke' brigade do have a fundamental problem with women and minorities being in films or shows. They're just too cowardly to admit it.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579290#Comment_119579290

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? although no reviewer has actually been named, while reading this thread (and its criticism of youtubers) im getting the feeling i watch most of these channels (albeit not religiously) - if we are talking about Nerdrotic, drinker, etc - i would genuinely appreciate a link to one (or more) of their videos which demonstrate that they "have a fundamental problem with women and minorities being in films or shows. They're just too cowardly to admit it."

That is a really powerful accusation. Interested in your thoughts - respectfully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579226#Comment_119579226

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579254#Comment_119579254

FYI - Love the Expanse, Strange New Worlds, all previous iterations of Trek - I am agnostic on Picard - I gave up on Orville after 2 episiodes, just not my cuppa - I cannot STAND discovery since season 2. - only stating these facts to give you an idea of what i like/dislike

As to the Woke criticisms, and il remain on LOTR for this point. I think the argument that LOTR-TROP has been wokified to a certain extent - holds merit

• Clearly they decided ahead of time that they wanted a female main character. This presents a problem, as Tolkien, although certainly more progressive in his portrayal of women than most of his generation - did not make them incredibly central in his books. They are powerful, but not warriors - They are Queen like characters who inspire great courage. Rather than accept this, the show runners took Galadriel, and turned her into Red Sonja - oh and to give her 'more agency and independence', they have excised her husband Celeborne from the story - Many words come to mind (hubris, arrogance, revisionist etc) - and yes WOKE does come to mind
• In order to boost up Galadriel, they have made all of the male elves around her, into weak, cowardly, appeasers, who will not accept what she knows to be true (and what we know to be true, as many if not all of us, know where this story is going)

Woke entertainment revisionism is a real thing @breezy1985 - doctor who is probably the ideal example, but to be honest the conversation is best had over on the who thread. But this trend of revisionism is becoming very lame - and OH SO PREDICTABLE now -

Criticism of this trend, inevitably leads to accusation of toxicity, misogyny, transphobia, racism, etc - and it is appalling to watch this happen (sorry to keep harping on about doctor who, but that one really hurt - While im first and foremost a trekkie - i also LOVE doctor who - and i truely hate what they have done with the character - and when i read articles in respectable Center Left Newspapers, call fans Trolls, and Toxic, for not 'accepting diversity' - i feel insulted)

Interested in your thoughts - respectfully

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579290#Comment_119579290

Yeah, those people who don't follow those type of trends are the worst, I heard they're all in the KKK too, probably true but does no harm to say it willy nilly.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579493#Comment_119579493

On the first point ever heard of a woman called Eowyn.

And no they haven't made all the men weak. You see this is exactly the problem with these insecure men who see everything as an attack on their manhood. Many many TV/films of this nature have a lead who is fighting the good fight while everyone around is ignoring it. The only difference is it's a woman.

Was it woke when John Snow was alone in the world on his quest to take on the white walkers ?

Was it woke when McNulty was the only guy trying to cut through the corruption ?

Was it woke when James fking Holden was the only guy who wanted to destroy and not use the protomolecule?

Don't watch Dr. Who but can't understand how a shape shifter being a woman would "hurt"

My big problem with all ye whingebags is when this show is 10 episodes in this thread will still be crying about how Hollywood is calling yet penises small. Just don't watch it if it's not for you and move on.

You say your a Trekkie so how do you feel about Uhuru, Sulu, Chekov, Sisko and Janeway ?

pjohnson

Now we've reached the natural part of the "discussion". Only "whingebags" dare criticise the show.

This reverse "edge lord" shtick is the biggest positive the show has.

When a show/diehards instantly start calling every single criticism "trolling" its a major indication of the actual quality.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579605#Comment_119579605

how about discussing if the show is any good?

johnny_ultimate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579493#Comment_119579493

Sure. The Quartering has been specifically mentioned. Just have a look through his channel and you can see a disproportionate amount of videos in which he directs his ire towards women, trans people, black people etc... amid the usual 'OMG SJW' content. I mean, after a certain point, it's not just complaining about progressive overreach or whatever... it's devoting your entire life to attacking women and minorities and their presence in pop culture.

The Critical Drinker is another where I remember seeing a link in a video in the gaming forum and having to turn it off due to the sheer casual misogyny of the thing. Whether this is a common trend in his videos I have no idea - I don't watch them, because that one video was more than enough for me.

I've never heard of Nerdrotic before this thread so cannot fairly comment on it.

I should add a disclaimer that it's often hard to tell the line between actual bigotry and cyncially exploiting many viewers' bigotry for commercial gain. In distressingly many cases now however - and I include much of the 'anti-woke' criticism of the Rings of Power in this - 'woke' is just a shorthand for 'there are women and black people in it'.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579631#Comment_119579631

Definitely way better than the trailers made it look. The Irish accents are chronic but hopefully they will dial down as the show goes on, most extreme accents do gradually drift away through a season.

Its certainly watchable as a series for now but theres a pretty big chance it may accelerate rapidly off a cliff if it makes any more weird missteps.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579605#Comment_119579605

I've criticised the show myself. It think it is about average at best.

What makes you a whingebag is spending all your time on a thread and watching YouTube about a show you hate because it massages your damaged little ego.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579710#Comment_119579710

Well I dont watch those clickbait goons so maybe wind your neck in assuming all criticism is from the one group. No matter how much the diehard fans try to ignore valid criticism by lumping it in with the dregs.

Neithet the woke or anti-woke scutter can fly anyway since Galadriel has actually been weakened dramatically.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579542#Comment_119579542

Thank you for your courteous and respectful response

On the first point ever heard of a woman called Eowyn - Yes! Yes i have. In both the books and the Films. And she lived in the third age, which according to canon is about 5000 years away from where we are now in the show. And yes she is one of Tolkiens characters - and she has her moment as a warrior - Galadriel, does not

Was it woke when John Snow was alone in the world on his quest to take on the white walkers ?

Was it woke when McNulty was the only guy trying to cut through the corruption ?

Was it woke when James fking Holden was the only guy who wanted to destroy and not use the protomolecule?

Did i say in any of my comments, that the Expanse, the Wire, and GOT, were woke!? If so please provide a link - I have finished the Expanse series of books, and would never describe them, or the adaption, as woke!

James fking Holden - also, have a cuppa - or as my favorite AI (HAL) would say

'Look, I can see you're really upset about this. I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill, and think things over.'

Don't watch Dr. Who but can't understand how a shape shifter being a woman would "hurt"

I will probably take a stress pil after this. But let me just say - i had NO ISSUE with a female doctor. The female master was fantastic, and i was 100% on board. What i DID have a problem with was a Whovian Retcon that stated the following

• The first 1963 doctor - who everyone knows and loves - was not ACTUALLY the first! Before him, there was a Women of color!
• Oh and, RETCON - before her, there was actually dozens of other 'ethically diverse' Timelords called the doctor
• Oh and WOPS! Forgot to mention the Doctor - yea, he/she/they, are not ACTUALLY a Timelord
• and finally LAST ONE I PROMISE - Yea the entity formally known as the doctor was actually found on a planet, tortured, and had her abilities stolen by the entities (plural) that would eventually become KNOWN AS - the timelords

My big problem with all ye whingebags is when this show is 10 episodes in this thread will still be crying about how Hollywood is calling yet penises small. Just don't watch it if it's not for you and move on.

Ok- please understand me- I am a respectful person. I am happy to debate this with you, and all here. I have an open mind. I am a left wing person, and formally quite woke - but i do not share your opinions. I have not ACTUALLY insulted you - if you can show me a line of text where i have insulted you, i will delete immediately, and publicly apologize to you, without reservation - sincerely

However, you have actually responded in a very derogatory manner - please, in the name of sanity, lets be civil. We can actually discuss this in a serious way - and in an interesting and informative way

PS - the HAL9000 quote above was an attempt to calm the chat down - i was quite taken aback by your comment - if you are not a 2001 fan, and dont find it funny, i will remove

nix

Now i myself have no issue with women kicking ass, but when you make them "mary sues", it kind of just makes my eyes roll out the back of my head.

Seriously like, Galadriel kills a cave troll in like 10 seconds matrix style without breaking a sweat. And then you look at the movies and it takes the entire fellowship the guts of 5 minutes to kill one and nearly getting killed in the process. Its stuff like that, that has people naturally react negatively, and then people just shut them down with sexist, hate women bla bla bla.. 🙄

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579605#Comment_119579605

it is tiring - Doctor Who, Star Trek, Star wars, marvel - did i miss any? Everytime a chat gets going where i give my opinion - boom - troll - toxic

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579685#Comment_119579685

Watchable just about sums it up. Of course I'll keep watching but not with any great expectation.

johnny_ultimate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119579747#Comment_119579747

But again, there's more to the character than just this 30 seconds or so. Indeed, the whole sequence shows how she has become so obsessed and fanatical about her quest that she puts her own team in danger and therefore loses their trust - a notable character flaw from the off. She's right about her cause, but she has failed to convince others due to her blind determination and quest for revenge.

Similarly, episode two ends with her having her life saved by a male character - she's very much not portrayed as invincible (immortal, but not invincible) or flawless.

There are valid concerns about her characterisation and presentation so far, but the 'Mary Sue' description is thus far inaccurate.