Senior Club Football Standard Embarrassing.

Viewpoint2

What a hiding kilmurray got from Crokes of Kerry two years in a row. Have lost to them 4 times now since 2009! Why just give up different class. Kilkee Kilrush what a joke no senior teams and the two biggest towns in the football area. They should be competing every year never mind not having a senior team.

Clareman

There's a very good Clare GAA discussion in the GAA forum with a lot of posters that don't post in here.

I don't think the football championship is as bad as you are making out, Dr. Croke's are probably better than most intercounty teams at the moment so that's not really a fair barometer of the championship, when teams were getting to finals does that mean they are good? For Kilkee, the population just isn't there to have a hope of competing, the sooner there is a peninsula team the better IMO.

1 of the main problems with the championship is that it is completely results based, lose 2 games and you are in a regulation play off, in my opinion there should be 16 senior clubs, 4 groups of 4 with top 2 going into play offs with bottom team into relegation play off, 1 up 1 down every year.

Also, playing the championship off in October is ridiculous, you aren't going to have decent football playing in October and often it comes down to fitness/strength levels rather than skill

Viewpoint2

First of all there is not 16 senior clubs of senior standard in clare and even the co board now acknowledge that more like 12 especially if you say that kilkee doesnt have the population anymore so you are contradicting yourself suggesting 16 senior teams! Secondly Crokes would not beat most county teams would not beat kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal etc so thats just an excuse and if Nemo Rangers play to their old traditional flair Nemo Rangers the Kingpins might even win! Thirdly you said that strength and fitness is usually what wins games in this time of year not skill, it helps I agree but Kilmurray or any Clare club in football were never found wanting in that area and well able to look after themselves at the edge with sending off players etc. So 'Skill' and the ability to actually play football is whats lacking but all talk the clare football pundits but in denial of the facts! Fourthly how can you explain how they will play the county final earlier than october with 16 teams you suggest when cant do it all along! There was weekends including the august bank holiday weekend that no senior games were played weeks or month or more after clare exited the championship. Indeed the hurling final was played earlier despite the fact that clare hurlers exited the championship later! So not good enough and please

Clareman

Viewpoint2 wrote: »

First of all there is not 16 senior clubs of senior standard in clare and even the co board now acknowledge that more like 12 especially if you say that kilkee doesnt have the population anymore so you are contradicting yourself suggesting 16 senior teams!

I'd be more in favour to have 16 teams playing the top level even if there would be 8 struggling rather than 10 with 2 struggling. Teams get better playing at a higher level

Viewpoint2 wrote: »

Secondly Crokes would not beat most county teams would not beat kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal etc so thats just an excuse and if Nemo Rangers play to their old traditional flair Nemo Rangers the Kingpins might even win!

laoisman11 wrote: »

Rank|Team|Δ Rating|Δ Ranking
1 | Dublin | -0.56 | 0
2 | Mayo | 0.72 | 1
3 | Kerry | -2.47 | -1
4 | Tyrone | 3.32 | 0
5 | Monaghan | 8.61 | 6
6 | Galway | 3.99 | 2
7 | Armagh | 16.80 | 15
8 | Roscommon | 8.01 | 8
9 | Kildare | 5.73 | 3
10 | Donegal | -8.19 | -5
11 | Cork | -0.79 | -2
12 | Tipperary | -7.50 | -6
13 | Clare | -6.28 | -6
14 | Meath | 1.61 | 3
15 | Down | 9.45 | 8
16 | Cavan | -1.70 | -1
17 | Westmeath | -2.92 | -3
18 | Derry | -5.64 | -8
19 | Longford | -1.74 | -1
20 | Sligo | 1.98 | 1
21 | Fermanagh | -9.25 | -8
22 | Offaly | -3.66 | -2
23 | Carlow | 9.53 | 5
24 | Laois | -4.76 | -5
25 | Wexford | -0.72 | 0
26 | Louth | -4.01 | -2
27 | Antrim | 1.06 | 0
28 | Limerick | -5.43 | -2
29 | Leitrim | 1.54 | 0
30 | New York | 0.00 | 2
31 | Waterford | 0.31 | 2
32 | Wicklow | -3.31 | -2
33 | London | -3.73 | -2

That's the ranking table from the GAA forum on here, I would say from Cork down Dr. Crokes would give most of the teams a good game of it and would beat a lot of them more times than not especially this time of year.

Viewpoint2 wrote: »

Thirdly you said that strength and fitness is usually what wins games in this time of year not skill, it helps I agree but Kilmurray or any Clare club in football were never found wanting in that area and well able to look after themselves at the edge with sending off players etc. So 'Skill' and the ability to actually play football is whats lacking but all talk the clare football pundits but in denial of the facts!

I think we're in agreement here.

Viewpoint2 wrote: »

Fourthly how can you explain how they will play the county final earlier than october with 16 teams you suggest when cant do it all along! There was weekends including the august bank holiday weekend that no senior games were played weeks or month or more after clare exited the championship. Indeed the hurling final was played earlier despite the fact that clare hurlers exited the championship later! So not good enough and please

With 16 teams you need 6 weekends to play off the championship
Week 1 - Round 1 - April week 1
Week 2 - Round 2 - April Week 3
Week 3 - Round 3 - May Week 2
Week 4 - Quarter Finals & Relegation Semi Finals - June/July (Depending on intercounty commitments)
Week 5 - Semi Finals & Relegation Final - August
Week 6 - Final - August/September

I would say no replays in the group stage with extra time in every other round, in the event of a draw after extra time the replay to take place the following Friday night, I would also cement the weekends in line with the hurling so (for example) football is on in weeks 1 & 3 in April and hurling is on weeks 2 &4, if teams are dual clubs then I'm afraid they will be at a disadvantage but that's unfortunate, also if a player is an inter-county player then it's up to them to decide whether they are playing club or not there shouldn't be a blanket ban on inter-county players playing with their clubs.

Unfortunately this isn't a recent problem, back in the 80s the club finals were being played at the October bank holiday weekend but in my opinion the best way to develop players is by playing more top flight games during fine weather.

funnyname

5 teams being relegated next year so will only be 12 teams from 2019

Clareman

funnyname wrote: »

5 teams being relegated next year so will only be 12 teams from 2019

Yup, the less senior clubs the easier it is for the status quo to stay in power, also having 12 teams makes it harder to organise with replays and dual clubs, nothing will change.

Viewpoint2

Look I am a neutral and I vouch for 12 teams. There isnt even 12 quality standard skilful senior teams up to that senior standard so 12 is enough in fact Id say even reduce it to 8 or 10 teams! No point having puke football ( I quote Pat Spillane Kerry) and mismatches. And ps then the football people might actually suceed in getting the final played in time.

chubba1984

Reducing the number of teams is not necessarily going to change the standard of the winners, so what is your solution to the perceived problem Viewpoint2?

Viewpoint2

There is a better chance of a better quality championship and less risk of awful one sided games for the neutrals if about 8 senior teams in it. Run it off in a knock out basis over a few rounds end of story. The 1989 final most people with common sense will vouch was the best final in decades, it was knock out, less teams, and was played in late august with the equally classic replay played in September! That was the final that preceeded the 1992 team of Clare! Havent seen anything like that final since with thd exception of the 92 co final that was fairly good too. So there u are dont complicate the competition, less senior clubs, dont be deluding oneself!

Clareman

Straight knock out to have better matches, sorry but I don't think that'll work, games will just become result driven with the ends justifying the means.

In my opinion the more games that are played the better teams will become. Having more room for mistakes mean teams will be willing to take chances, for example if a manager has a choice between an untested 21 year old or an experienced 36 year old, without a safety net of more games chances are the 36 year old will be picked. It'll also mean that the second tier competition becomes cut throat to get back up with very lob-sided games with the teams most recently relegated most likely to get back up.

Viewpoint2

I disagree

Viewpoint2

Look I disagree completely. No good having 16 teams with puke one sided games for neutrals etc not that many neutrals or clare fans going to club games anymore as poor matches and the county team this yr could not finish off kerry this year at home in Ennis when a present on a plate to them! These people canvassing for 16 teams are deluded they are happy for a number of 'non standard senior quality clubs' play between each other at a lower standard but then when one or two of them emerge to the quarter finals its puke to watch as a so called senior team or traditional senior club beats or hammers them! Thats no good for neutrals and the game!

Viewpoint2

As for the logic of a safety net with 16 teams thats nonsense. Safety netted structures for certain intercounty competitions within limits
is good such as for hurling senior county teams (though not in the munster province but the way it had been was super). However the nonsense that a club will stay with a experienced 36 yr old in a knockout championship rather than a young 21 yr old is fantasy and if clubs get that call wrong then tough! Thats where management of a team comes into it and appropriate substuitions at the right timings! Look the u21 club championship is suppose to tell you facts about a 21yr old or if the player was in a u21 county team how he played! I suppose there never has been a good u21 county team or one that won silverware and I guess the quality of the u21 club championship is also puke standard.

Viewpoint2

Its been said that the second tier club championship competition will become cut throat. I presume the reference is to the Intermediate Championship and not the 'Senior B'. First of all scrap the Senior B what nonsense it is you win the Senior Proper or else no Senior! The Senior B doesnt serve any purpose and never did! Now regarding the Intermediate Championship great if it becomes cut throat! Thats whats required a fierce cut throat aggressive passionate SKILFUL competition in all grades from Senior to Junior C or D! There is no point molly coddling failure and loosers in loosing structures! Next year is the only year that 5 senior clubs been relegated down to intermediate most of them we shall see were never good enough to play senior standard so let them settle in their right home! After next year when the new structures are in place there wont be 5 teams going up and down so thats been exaggerated and used as a false excuse! To add to this if weaker teams in the intermediate house cant stand the pressure from the new comers from the senior ranks then I suggest move to the juniorA home and so on!

Viewpoint2

As for chubba 1984 my solution is to reduce the amount of senior clubs not just down to 12 but 8! The Co board are going partially in the right direction but not enough. Id do the same with the intermediate as too many clubs not up to intermediate standard! Id do the same with the Junior A B and C grades. Id introduce a Junior D and E grade. Start from the top make it a lions den of a senior championship with tight passionate quality games and use that template all the way down! Oh and ps run off the co finals in time and like the hurling clubs play games in August and the August Bank Holiday weekend!
As far as I can see in 1989 the senior final and replay was a classic and was played in late August and early September! That time games were played in August not a GAA footballers holiday for the entire month! The hurlers as usual went further this yr than the clare footballers yet the hurling final was played b4 the football final! No organisation in football circles only puke excuses and yet want more teams in the club championship while sitting on their bums in August playing no games! Can you explain that farce!

Viewpoint2

Also was said that Kilkees population is the silly excuse for no senior team! Nonsense stinks! Times were bad in 1980s immigrstion was worse town of kilkee was smaller, travelling home options less frequent, yet had their best team of 1989 ever in the all classic time senior 89 final and replay v Doonbeg! Puke excuse. Kilrush the same no senior team but had one in the 80s and 70s and a good one and times were worse! Miltown Ennistymon and Lusdoonvarns all the same. A pure joke no senior teams because of puke footballers, no skill, no interest, attitude, etc. Look at what Ballyea did last yr and its a tiny populated place and area! Look at Cratloe a few yrs back won the hurling and football double and a tiny area! Look at Doonbeg and Cooraclare near the Kilkee and Kilrush and they have senior teams and no towns etc! Look at Kilmurray surviving at senior yet Miltown Ennistymon and Lisdoonvarna all townies cant field senior teams! Smoke that!!!!!!!

Viewpoint2

Haha the defenders of the clare football championships have been silenced with the aforementioned facts and no amswers only
stay silenced in the bunker!

Clareman

I was going to reply along the lines of using this years quarter finals as the basis of an 8 team senior championship, so Miltown, Cooraclare, Kilmurry, Eire Og, Doonbeg, Clondegag, Cratloe and Ennistymon are the 8 senior clubs. Using the quarter finals as a guide, Cooraclare, Eire Og, Doonbeg and Ennistymon would be contesting the relegation play offs but I couldn't get my head around it because my opinion is that the more teams playing at a higher level and the more games would mean teams improving rather than being terrified of being relegated and only having 3 games.

You keep going on about the 89 final, the 2 teams had some brilliant players, probably some of the best ever to play for Clare, off the top of my head Gerry Kelly, Ger Keane, Noel Roche, Padraig Conway, Gerry Killeen, Francis McInerney but I don't think you can compare football from 18 years ago to today's game, the game has changed so much and you might be thinking back on it with rose tinted glasses, I know when I re-watched the 95 hurling final I couldn't believe how much the game has changed.

My opinion is that for Clare GAA to improve we need to play more matches in the summer and it would be best to have 16 teams with 4 groups of 4 so every team is guaranteed at least 3 games.