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Road Vulnerability training

listermint

So seen this scene from yesterday where the entire Road was shut for some hours due to a mixture of Speed, Tailgating and observation for multiple drivers.

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/930029718082150400/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublinlive.ie%2Fnews%2Fdublin-news%2Fshocking-pictures-show-multi-car-13897429

So ive had a thought on these types of incidents and wondered - What if everyone who obtained a new car license had to sit through 1 day road motorcycle training.

Bear with me,

In doing some training it would open the road users eyes to the vulnerability of their person and perhaps see the road from a 'naked' individuals perspective. Teaching road positioning , braking distances, cornering and observation far better than you ever could from being inside a protected Car.

This would be done in conjunction with the Vehicle training as part of the overall 'road user' training. Obviously did would be for new road users but would envisage some retrospective scheme for anyone interested or where people obtain X number of penalty points as an eye opener to their behaviour

Thoughts musings anecdotes ?

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I love Sean nos

I can't see training on it's own doing much good. Car training as it stands is similar to bike training in that there's plenty of mention made about observation. The test is also full of it. The problem is that once people have the licence, they think that they can then do what they like until they die or are caught by the Gardai.

The alternative is to build in licence progression. I think they should be made to ride a bicycle first before being allowed near anything with an engine. Then made ride a motorbike for a period before they can get a car permit.

listermint

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I can't see training on it's own doing much good. Car training as it stands is similar to bike training in that there's plenty of mention made about observation. The test is also full of it. The problem is that once people have the licence, they think that they can then do what they like until they die or are caught by the Gardai.

The alternative is to build in licence progression. I think they should be made to ride a bicycle first before being allowed near anything with an engine. Then made ride a motorbike for a period before they can get a car permit.

Novel approach, I do think that 'mentioning' observation in car training is entirely different than living it on a bike. Being external to all that glass and metal can really put words into reality in terms of why observation is important.

I love Sean nos

listermint wrote: »

Novel approach, I do think that 'mentioning' observation in car training is entirely different than living it on a bike. Being external to all that glass and metal can really put words into reality in terms of why observation is important.

Agreed. Riding a motorbike, I feel more like I'm part of the environment, not just travelling through it.

Maybe "mention" is not quite a strong enough word, but the point I was trying to make is that it forms quite a bit of car training. The test sheets are identical as far as I can tell (did my bike test recently).

So I don't think that classroom training is quite enough, but you couldn't give much in the way of practical instruction in one day.

Maybe make 2 days of IBT (classroom then practical) a part of the EDT?

Lumen

There are some studies which suggest that driver training makes people worse drivers.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111211000021

This may be explained by the Dunning Kruger effect that a little knowledge makes us excessively confident.

I think the type of training is very important. You basically want to add skill but degrade confidence.

frozenfrozen

I'm sure there's a lot of the dunning kruger effect across the board but IMO accidents as in the original tweet are not caused by someone overestimating their driving it's by the huge section of people who aren't even aware that they are driving.

Would time on a bike sort those people out? It might make them treat a bike with more care in stop start traffic but I don't see how it would stop them from texting while driving or just following the tail lights of the car in front.

stewygriffin

The gardai used to do a bikesafe scheme years ago.

They dont do it now.

The british police do it on a monthly basis.
I was in Surrey last month and the surrey police force had a day out for all bikers and a rideout to show bikers about safe biking.
Great event and good interaction between bikers and the police too.

thos

Training needs to be ongoing, not just a one-off.

In a lot of jobs there is annual training - health and safety, anti-corruption, code of conduct etc - for all quite menial stuff, so when you thinking of being in control of a 1-2ton lump of metal doing 50-100kmh with people inside, and vulnerable pedestrians around, you'd think we would do a better job of ensuring people are getting more frequent refreshers and reminders of the basics, rules of the road, safety, vulnerability of other road users, and ideally more frequently tested about their competency - even an online theory test before license renewal would be a step up from what we have now.

RSA seem to spend a lot of money on statistics for deaths on the road, just heard a remberance day ad on the radio, but it would be great to see RSA actively doing more to educate road users like above or better road signage for better lane discipline, chevrons painted on the road for proper distances.

gonko

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I can't see training on it's own doing much good. Car training as it stands is similar to bike training in that there's plenty of mention made about observation. The test is also full of it. The problem is that once people have the licence, they think that they can then do what they like until they die or are caught by the Gardai.

The alternative is to build in licence progression. I think they should be made to ride a bicycle first before being allowed near anything with an engine. Then made ride a motorbike for a period before they can get a car permit.

Car training and bike training are very different. A lot more goes into riding a bike and believe me, when your on a bike you take every single action very seriously. In a car you can become (wrongly) more complacent. I'd love to do bike safe courses over here. I do think training should be ongoing for car and bike. Once every 3 years even.

BaronVon

stewygriffin wrote: »

The gardai used to do a bikesafe scheme years ago.

They dont do it now.

The british police do it on a monthly basis.
I was in Surrey last month and the surrey police force had a day out for all bikers and a rideout to show bikers about safe biking.
Great event and good interaction between bikers and the police too.

My understanding is that it was stopped because IBT trainers were giving out that it was taking their business. It's currently being reviewed.

Now that IBT for motorcyclists is in place An Garda Síochána is reviewing the Bike-Safe Scheme and in the meantime the Bike-Safe initiative is being suspended.
Information with regard to IBT for motorcyclists can be found on the RSA website WWW.RSA.IE

stewygriffin

infacteh wrote: »

My understanding is that it was stopped because IBT trainers were giving out that it was taking their business. It's currently being reviewed.

Sure theres allways somebody complaining in this country about taking away from their business.

RSA ......oh look,lets fleece the fcuk out of young and existing road users now,.....chi ching.:eek::rolleyes:

TallGlass

I am just seeing $$$ signs looking at that crash with the amount of claims about to go in for personal injury.

TallGlass

infacteh wrote: »

My understanding is that it was stopped because IBT trainers were giving out that it was taking their business. It's currently being reviewed.

Not arguing with you by the way!

But how can it be taking there business? You can't/shouldn't and regardless it's illegal to drive a motorcycle without an IBT cert, so you can't even show up to a Garda event without an IBT cert.

The only way to get an IBT cert is from an approved IBT instructor, otherwise you shouldn't be on the road.

Just on the topic of B licences, as an A/B licence holder. The B licences needs to go the way of the A licence, as in you have B/B1/B2, different age groups. Bring in the IBT for cars, once you pass that, you can drive by yourself, as it stands the law isn't enforced anyway and pretty much ignored, at leased that way the person has 10 lessons under belt and a bit of experience. The only thing I would change is if you don't sit a test within 10 months or so you have to do another 4 hours training or your not allowed out by yourself.

frozenfrozen

TG I think it's because IBT instructors do advanced lessons too.

IMO I think they're two completely different things, an advanced lesson is an advanced lesson and the garda bike safe thing sounds like it was as much a police outreach thing as a safety lesson

TallGlass

frozenfrozen wrote: »

TG I think it's because IBT instructors do advanced lessons too.

IMO I think they're two completely different things, an advanced lesson is an advanced lesson and the garda bike safe thing sounds like it was as much a police outreach thing as a safety lesson

An advanced lesson from the Garda, that's like saying Fire Fighters going to schools are giving out Fire Safety courses, two completely different things.

Advanced riding takes more than a day out with a Garda. You develop advanced riding/driving as much as you practice it, it's not something that comes over night.

frozenfrozen

TallGlass wrote: »

An advanced lesson from the Garda, that's like saying Fire Fighters going to schools are giving out Fire Safety courses, two completely different things.

Advanced riding takes more than a day out with a Garda. You develop advanced riding/driving as much as you practice it, it's not something that comes over night.

agreed 100%, I don't see why an IBT instructor would think bike safe would take away work from them.

Roadskill

infacteh wrote: »

My understanding is that it was stopped because IBT trainers were giving out that it was taking their business. It's currently being reviewed.

I don't know where this information was obtained about instructors giving out.
We gave the Waterford Gardai a key to our compound and classroom to conduct bikesafe.
In fact a number of members here used our facilities over a few years free of charge and did it. It does not take my business as originally only full licence holders could do it. Also it's only an assessment of the riders skill and safety and anyone who was found to be lacking in any way were actually advised to take some training with an advanced instructor.

stewygriffin

All absolute "experts" and "saints" who post on that garda twitter page too.

Bunch of keyboard warriors and nothing more.

listermint

stewygriffin wrote: »

All absolute "experts" and "saints" who post on that garda twitter page too.

Bunch of keyboard warriors and nothing more.

There is a difference between Saints and madness, I ride the N11 daily and i have multiple incidences of drivers right up the arse of the bike where i cant see the reg plate on their car despite another vehicle being just in front of me.

The road is plagued by clowns trying to get as fast as they can to Dublin from Wexford or wherever.

AlekSmart

infacteh wrote: »

My understanding is that it was stopped because IBT trainers were giving out that it was taking their business. It's currently being reviewed.

It's somewhat sad that the Senior management of our National Police Force cannot see the very obvious range of benefits which derive from the Bikesafe principle for ALL roadusers,both civilian and police alike.

I took part in a 2 day Bikesafe in with North Wales Constabulary some years back and found it quite the most engaging weekend I ever spent in terms of education and appreciation.

Bearing in mind that the NW Constabulary were,possibly,the least "Bike Friendly" force in the UK,it was very obvious that the Motorcycle members who participated were dyed in the wool bikers who just happened to be earning a crust as rozzers.

It is incredibly short-sighted,verging on unbelievable for Garda management to cite the presence of the IBT programme as a reason to suspend Bikesafe.

The huge benefit of Bikesafe is that it brings everybody to a uniform level in terms of what is to be gained from the course,with no focus on the experience levels of the particiants or their machines.

When we look at the many Billions spent on various hare brained,"Drain the Shannon" type schemes in Ireland over the years,the ending of Bikesafe is little more than criminal muppetry. :mad:

BaronVon

Roadskill wrote: »

I don't know where this information was obtained about instructors giving out.
We gave the Waterford Gardai a key to our compound and classroom to conduct bikesafe.
In fact a number of members here used our facilities over a few years free of charge and did it. It does not take my business as originally only full licence holders could do it. Also it's only an assessment of the riders skill and safety and anyone who was found to be lacking in any way were actually advised to take some training with an advanced instructor.

AlekSmart wrote: »

It's somewhat sad that the Senior management of our National Police Force cannot see the very obvious range of benefits which derive from the Bikesafe principle for ALL roadusers,both civilian and police alike.

I took part in a 2 day Bikesafe in with North Wales Constabulary some years back and found it quite the most engaging weekend I ever spent in terms of education and appreciation.

Bearing in mind that the NW Constabulary were,possibly,the least "Bike Friendly" force in the UK,it was very obvious that the Motorcycle members who participated were dyed in the wool bikers who just happened to be earning a crust as rozzers.

It is incredibly short-sighted,verging on unbelievable for Garda management to cite the presence of the IBT programme as a reason to suspend Bikesafe.

The huge benefit of Bikesafe is that it brings everybody to a uniform level in terms of what is to be gained from the course,with no focus on the experience levels of the particiants or their machines.

When we look at the many Billions spent on various hare brained,"Drain the Shannon" type schemes in Ireland over the years,the ending of Bikesafe is little more than criminal muppetry. :mad:

I must stress this is what I've heard, through the grapevine. There's nothing official, except that quote from the website that it was 'under review'.

I know it fell by the wayside during the recession, most likely a resource issue. There were attempts to resurrect it, definitely in the Leinster region anyway, and then it was put under 'review'.

I never did it, but I believe it was a very worthwhile experience, especially from a Community Engagement point of view. Hopefully it will be resurrected in the near future.