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Hap Question

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  • 15-11-2017 3:33pm
    #1
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭


    Hi, can a LL refuse to agree to enter HAP scheme, AFTER agreeing to do it?


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    #2
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    bigguns2 wrote: »
    Hi, can a LL refuse to agree to enter HAP scheme, AFTER agreeing to do it?
    If they have no tax cert, or the house fails the inspection, maybe. Which are you; the tenant or the landlord?


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    #3
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    the_syco wrote: »
    If they have no tax cert, or the house fails the inspection, maybe. Which are you; the tenant or the landlord?

    Tenant


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    #4
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,301 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    By agreeing, do you mean they signed something saying that they'll take HAP from ye?


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    #5
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    LL agreed in principal the HAP, now she has had a change of mind (wants more money than HAP willing to pay)
    so know she said she would like to put a new kitchen in and do some refurbishments.. etc..

    I would like to know can she evict us on those grounds? or can we stay while work is being carried out?

    The rent will obviously increase after the work is carried out, we live in a RPZ. Will the HAP look at our case and maybe increase the payment to LL?


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    #6
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    I am sure this has been covered but;

    What exactly counts as a refurbishment? Our LL wants to put a new kitchen in, that would not consitute asking us to quit would it?


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    #7
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Substantial refurbishment isnt really defined properly. Its something the Govt are currently looking at clearing up.

    HAP is very poor for landlords which makes them hesitant which causes HAP tenants like yourself lots of hassle. Really is a shambles.


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    #8
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    bigguns2 wrote: »
    I would like to know can she evict us on those grounds? or can we stay while work is being carried out?

    The rent will obviously increase after the work is carried out, we live in a RPZ. Will the HAP look at our case and maybe increase the payment to LL?
    Have you a lease at the moment?


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    #9
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    Yes I have a lease, LL wants to get more for property (understandable) the HAP will pay a max of 1,300 we pay top up (150e) to LL.

    LL not happy with this wants 1,800-2,000 (according to daft thats what rent is in my area) considers putting a new kitchen in and then relisting at higher amount.

    We get first option, but we don't see the need to vacate the home for a new kitchen? Can be done within a week or two...


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    #10
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    bigguns2 wrote: »
    Yes I have a lease, LL wants to get more for property (understandable) the HAP will pay a max of 1,300 we pay top up (150e) to LL.

    LL not happy with this wants 1,800-2,000 (according to daft thats what rent is in my area) considers putting a new kitchen in and then relisting at higher amount.

    We get first option, but we don't see the need to vacate the home for a new kitchen? Can be done within a week or two...

    I think you're missing the point of the refurb. It's unlikely to be about a new kitchen.

    The landlord knows he can't legally increase the rent in an RPZ.
    The landlord know he can't end your tenancy unless it's for one of the very few permitted reasons.
    The landlords knows refusing HAP could be a problem.

    The solution to all of his problems:

    Give you notice to end the tenancy because he is planning to substantially refurbish the house. This is one of the permitted reasons for ending a tenancy.

    Once the refurbishment is complete the landlord can up the rent to market rates which is undoubtedly above the HAP limits. Legally he has to offer the house back to you but it sounds like he knows it will be outside your budget.


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    #11
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Graham wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point of the refurb. It's unlikely to be about a new kitchen.

    The landlord knows he can't legally increase the rent in an RPZ.
    The landlord know he can't end your tenancy unless it's for one of the very few permitted reasons.
    The landlords knows refusing HAP could be a problem.

    The solution to all of his problems:

    Give you notice to end the tenancy because he is planning to substantially refurbish the house. This is one of the permitted reasons for ending a tenancy.

    Once the refurbishment is complete the landlord can up the rent to market rates which is undoubtedly above the HAP limits. Legally he has to offer the house back to you but it sounds like he knows it will be outside your budget.

    That sums it up perfect and unfortunately your out of luck. He’s not doing the kitchen to make it more valuable. It’s just to legally get around certain rules in place.


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    #12
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Fol20 wrote: »
    That sums it up perfect and unfortunately your out of luck. He’s not doing the kitchen to make it more valuable. It’s just to legally get around certain rules in place.

    Not entirely true.
    Rent is associated with the property- not the tenant.
    The property is in an RPZ.
    If the landlord spends 15k on a new kitchen and associated works- which enables them to up the rent to market rates- (i.e. from 1,250 to 2,000)- the property has increased in value if they decide to sell it- by between 90 and 120k..............

    If the landlord quashes rent set at an articifically low level- and sets it to market rates- he/she brings the value of the property up to market rates (12-15 times annual rent roll- probably somewhere between 300 and 360k- from 200-225k- if they sell to an investor with an artificially low rent level).

    For good measure- unless works are purely remedial in nature- they are not tax deductible (e.g. if a landlord puts in double glazing- replacing single glazing- or a new kitchen etc- Revenue state that it is an improvement- and the landlord should recoup the cost from increased rent- thus it is not an allowable expense.............)

    Revenue and the Housing Minister- need to talk to one another- the government have tied the entire market up in knots.


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    #13
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    So in a nutshell he can terminate our lease, give notice to quit on the basis of a new kitchen?
    Am i reading that correctly?

    Why would we have to leave the home while a kitchen is being done? and also, as far as I am aware he has to formally put a time of proposed works and end date?

    Lastly what is to stop him proposing to do the works but as soon as we go he can just not do it and rent it again? by that time we be in hotel or another home...


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    #14
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    Graham wrote: »
    I think you're missing the point of the refurb. It's unlikely to be about a new kitchen.

    The landlord knows he can't legally increase the rent in an RPZ.
    The landlord know he can't end your tenancy unless it's for one of the very few permitted reasons.
    The landlords knows refusing HAP could be a problem.

    The solution to all of his problems:

    Give you notice to end the tenancy because he is planning to substantially refurbish the house. This is one of the permitted reasons for ending a tenancy.

    Once the refurbishment is complete the landlord can up the rent to market rates which is undoubtedly above the HAP limits. Legally he has to offer the house back to you but it sounds like he knows it will be outside your budget.

    He has told me in writing he is no longer willing to do the HAP.


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    #15
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    bigguns2 wrote: »
    So in a nutshell he can terminate our lease, give notice to quit on the basis of a new kitchen?
    Am i reading that correctly?

    Not quite, it's not about the kitchen. A landlord can terminate a tenancy if he ''intends to substantially refurbish or renovate the dwelling". The term 'substantially refurbish' is currently open to interpretation.

    I note that you mention 'lease' if you have a fixed term lease the landlord is bound by the terms and duration of the lease. Check your lease to see if there are any break clauses that the landlord may rely upon. Also note that a lease cannot remove any rights you may have under a tenancy, e.g. notice periods, part 4 etc.
    bigguns2 wrote: »
    Why would we have to leave the home while a kitchen is being done? and also, as far as I am aware he has to formally put a time of proposed works and end date?

    Landlord will undoubtedly argue the works will make the house uninhabitable. Your opinion that you'd manage around the kitchen works doesn't count for much I'm afraid.
    bigguns2 wrote: »
    Lastly what is to stop him proposing to do the works but as soon as we go he can just not do it and rent it again? by that time we be in hotel or another home...

    Nothing. You would than have cause to lodge a dispute with the RTB.


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    #16
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    bigguns2 wrote: »
    He has told me in writing he is no longer willing to do the HAP.

    That probably wasn't clever.

    I am not going to give you legal advice and I'm not going to comment on whether I think a landlord should/shouldn't be obligated to accept HAP.

    However, this link gives you an idea of the outcome in similar circumstances:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0821/898813-housing-assistance-payment-case/


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    #17
    bigguns2
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bigguns2


    Graham wrote: »
    That probably wasn't clever.

    I am not going to give you legal advice and I'm not going to comment on whether I think a landlord should/shouldn't be obligated to accept HAP.

    However, this link gives you an idea of the outcome in similar circumstances:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0821/898813-housing-assistance-payment-case/

    Apparantley the HAP are not responsible to rehome/find a place for us on HAP, we need to find a LL willing to accept it, which will be almost impossible, any enquires I made I was told the LL only wants a minium amount of tenants in the property.


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