The M28

marno21

I debated posting this in the city or county thread but as its so close to the city and would likely get a greater audience here I have posted here. If wrong, apologies...

I'm sure anyone in the Douglas/Rochestown/Carrigaline/Ringaskiddy area has heard about the ongoing battle between a group of residents in Rochestown regarding the planned M28 motorway to Ringaskiddy.

What's the view on this locally? Do you support or object to the plan?

run_Forrest_run

I'm well aware of it and I still don't know where I stand on it yet.

Last night I saw a pic that was photoshopped to show a before and after view of someone's house once the motorway is in place and to say it looked like the Berlin Wall spanning behind their house was an understatement. My point being in this case that stuff is being made up to look worse than what it will be to protect those valuable properties in Rochestown and NIMBYism is definitely alive and well here.

grogi

But that's how society works. You have to give to get more...

There is always someone that is negatively impacted by a change. Does this mean we shouldn't change anything?

I'm all for listening to people voice and really wonder if we really need a motorway here. But the discussion needs to be constructive. In the end we all need infrastructure - otherwise everyone, those residents included - will spent good chunk of the day waiting in the traffic jams. But we cannot built roads without sacrificing unspoiled view from everyone's window.

run_Forrest_run

absolutely agree grogi

snotboogie

grogi wrote: »

But that's how society works. You have to give to get more...

There is always someone that is negatively impacted by a change. Does this mean we shouldn't change anything?

I'm all for listening to people voice and really wonder if we really need a motorway here. But the discussion needs to be constructive. In the end we all need infrastructure - otherwise everyone, those residents included - will spent good chunk of the day waiting in the traffic jams. But we cannot built roads without sacrificing unspoiled view from everyone's window.

The Port of Cork needs to be connected to a motorway according to EU law. The port cannot move without the M28. The development of the docklands can't reach potential until the port moves. The port will be able to accommodate larger vessels in Ringaskiddy. Two of the most important projects for Cork; the Docklands development and the Port expansion, are utterly reliant on the M28. That's before we even talk about the N28 being an overcrowded death trap that would need upgrading even if the port wasn't moving and even if EU laws didn't require it. It's not as glamorous as the M20 or the North Ring but it's the most important infrastructure project for Cork and unlike the M20 and the North Ring, the M28 will get EU funding. The talks of moving the Port to Cobh for rail purposes (rail freight is dead on this island) and rerouting the motorway to Cork airport (Cork airport doesn't handle freight) are at best going to delay the project 10-20 years while trebling the cost and are at worst pure fantasy being callously pedaled as alternatives with an eye to killing the project or delaying it as much as possible.

grogi

snotboogie wrote: »

The Port of Cork needs to be connected to a motorway according to EU law.

I get the feeling that too much in this country is justified by "EU Law". The bin regulations, water regulations etc - there are some European regulations that need to be fulfilled, but not to the extend the Irish public is often made to believe.

With the Cork port it probably is the same. The current road is a disgrace, but my gut feeling tells me that a good dual carriageway would suffice here. However I am speaking without any numeric backing here and if you have the figures, please give them. What would be the projected volume of goods from and to the port and how many trucks would that require?

snotboogie

grogi wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

The Port of Cork needs to be connected to a motorway according to EU law.

I get the feeling that too much in this country is justified by "EU Law". The bin regulations, water regulations etc - there are some European regulations that need to be fulfilled, but not to the extend the Irish public is often made to believe.

With the Cork port it probably is the same. The current road is a disgrace, but my gut feeling tells me that a good dual carriageway would suffice here. However I am speaking without any numeric backing here and if you have the figures, please give them. What would be the projected volume of goods from and to the port and how many trucks would that require?

Your gut instinct is wrong, the N28 currently has 25k AADT 
https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6 according to the TII's road development guidelines the next standard of road down from a motorway, a Type 2 Dual Carriageway, has a maximum capacity of 20k AADT:

The Type 2 dual carriageway is to be considered as a cross section option at flows in between 11,600 Annual Average Daily Traffic AADT (i.e. the capacity limit of a standard single carriageway) and 20,000 AADT 
http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/DN-GEO-03059-01.pdf

grogi

snotboogie wrote: »

Your gut instinct is wrong

About EU Law requiring port being connected to motorway?!

, the N28 currently has 25k AADT 
https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6 according to the TII's road development guidelines the next standard of road down from a motorway, a Type 2 Dual Carriageway, has a maximum capacity of 20k AADT:

Those figures are extremely pesimistic... A motorway (Type 1) being able to carry only 38k AADT? N40 does not qualify for Type 1 and carries 86046 AADT at the moment and almost 70k AADT go through the Tunnel.

We also shouldn't forget that port traffic has different distribution across the day than a standard commuter traffic. The AADT figure is relevant to road capacity planning when there are two major usage peaks (7:30-9:30 and 16:30-18:30), the port might add extra 10k AADT without affecting the congestion during peak hours at all.

snotboogie

grogi wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Your gut instinct is wrong

About EU Law requiring port being connected to motorway?!

, the N28 currently has 25k AADT 
https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6 according to the TII's road development guidelines the next standard of road down from a motorway, a Type 2 Dual Carriageway, has a maximum capacity of 20k AADT:

Those figures are extremely pesimistic... A motorway (Type 1) being able to carry only 38k AADT? N40 does not qualify for Type 1 and carries 86046 AADT at the moment and almost 70k AADT go through the Tunnel.

We also shouldn't forget that port traffic has different distribution across the day than a standard commuter traffic. The AADT figure is relevant to road capacity planning when there are two major usage peaks (7:30-9:30 and 16:30-18:30), the port might add extra 10k AADT without affecting the congestion during peak hours at all.

I don't get your point? The N40 is overused do to extremely poor alternatives and insufficient development, so we should also under develop the N28? Unless you think the N40 sufficiently serves the city? 
Are those 10k figures correct? Adding 10,000 mostly heavy duties vehicles a day to a road that is already overcrowded sounds like an ideal candidate for a motorway.

CHealy

Theres a hell of alot of mis-information being peddled by the residents group, their argument seems to be based around noise pollution, the effect of construction (madness?), and the closure of a ramp up to Mount Oval which has actually been answered by the planning committee. Its nothing more than NIMBY-ism and it once again shows the problems with the planning process in this country. We have a group of 6 residents claiming to represent 10 thousand people when the fact is that anyone in the area Iv talked to cant wait until the thing is built.

AugustusMinimus

I’m a resident in the area. This road and upgraded junctions are badly needed. Harrington and crew are putting out a level of misinformation which I don’t think I’ve ever seen in this country before.

AugustusMinimus

I’m a resident in the area. This road and upgraded junctions are badly needed. Harrington and crew are putting out a level of misinformation which I don’t think I’ve ever seen in this country before.

Fabio

I think, in terms of progressing Cork as a city and an economic centre, it has to be built. Too many other things rely on this.

boardsuser1

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I’m a resident in the area. This road and upgraded junctions are badly needed. Harrington and crew are putting out a level of misinformation which I don’t think I’ve ever seen in this country before.

Harrington has a reputation for being controversial i've heard.


You are 100% right with the road and junctions needing to be upgraded.

ofcork

Where are they getting the 4000 extra trucks a day from also the interchange at bloomfield is not being upgraded?

AugustusMinimus

ofcork wrote: »

Where are they getting the 4000 extra trucks a day from also the interchange at bloomfield is not being upgraded?

It is being upgraded. Two new lanes are being added for M28 to N40 Westbound. Bloomfield Interchsnge is still below capacity anyways.

What cause traffic there are queues from Dunkettle and queues from the Rochestown Roundsbout.

ofcork

What about eastbound which will see a lot of extra traffic?

boardsuser1

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It is being upgraded. Two new lanes are being added for M28 to N40 Westbound. Bloomfield Interchsnge is still below capacity anyways.

What cause traffic there are queues from Dunkettle and queues from the Rochestown Roundsbout.

ofcork wrote: »

What about eastbound which will see a lot of extra traffic?

The Dunkettle interchange will be built before the M28, this should be able to handle bigger volumes of traffic by virtue of the fact it will be free flowing.

Basically what will happen with Dunkettle is, if you remember the Redcow roundabout in Dublin and the now Redcow interchange, That should be the end result.

AugustusMinimus

ofcork wrote: »

What about eastbound which will see a lot of extra traffic?

Would think the capacity will still easily be sufficient.

mire

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It is being upgraded. Two new lanes are being added for M28 to N40 Westbound. Bloomfield Interchsnge is still below capacity anyways.

What cause traffic there are queues from Dunkettle and queues from the Rochestown Roundsbout.

ofcork wrote: »

What about eastbound which will see a lot of extra traffic?

The Dunkettle interchange will be built before the M28, this should be able to handle bigger volumes of traffic by virtue of the fact it will be free flowing.

Basically what will happen with Dunkettle is, if you remember the Redcow roundabout in Dublin and the now Redcow interchange, That should be the end result.

But, the proposed dunkettle interchange will not actually be free flow, as is the Red cow version. There are at grade arrangements and it will not be fully free flow.

grogi

mire wrote: »

But, the proposed dunkettle interchange will not actually be free flow, as is the Red cow version. There are at grade arrangements and it will not be fully free flow.

It will be in 11 out of 12 directions. The only one that isn't is M8 Southbound -> N8 Westbound. So for the traffic from/to M28 completely irrelevant.

Victor

snotboogie wrote: »

The Port of Cork needs to be connected to a motorway according to EU law.

I sincerely doubt this. Can you quote this law?

marno21

Victor wrote: »

I sincerely doubt this. Can you quote this law?

It's a TEN-T Core port and thus needs to be connected to the core network.

Not sure if that qualifies as "by law" or not...

AugustusMinimus

grogi wrote: »

mire wrote: »

But, the proposed dunkettle interchange will not actually be free flow, as is the Red cow version. There are at grade arrangements and it will not be fully free flow.

It will be in 11 out of 12 directions. The only one that isn't is M8 Southbound -> N8 Westbound. So for the traffic from/to M28 completely irrelevant.

Also, that movement will require going through 2 roundabouts. This move my will have priority at these roundabouts due to the entrance / exit set up.

ofcork

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Would think the capacity will still easily be sufficient.

Big long curve to get onto the south ring eastbound though will create slowdowns.

niloc1951

https://youtu.be/dev4tjKoFpE

ofcork

Could have done with it during the week when irish water closed the back road from carrigaline to ringaskiddy traffic was mental,took a colleague 3 hours to get from ballinlough to ringaskiddy.