Is Ireland's problem in our choice of manager?

froog

let's be honest, we've never had a really great manager. charlton was a great player of course, but never really had much success in management. ireland played a dreadful style of football under him and we just happened to be very lucky with a few unusually good players at the the same time. the others? all extremely average journeyman type managers.

trappatoni was our one high level manager but he was a dinosaur in footballing terms and hadn't won anything of note in almost 10 years when we got him.

yes ireland can never hope to match most other country's players with decent domestic leagues and high populations, but at least a top manager would dramatically improve us.

Ulysses Gaze

froog wrote: »

let's be honest, we've never had a really great manager. charlton was a great player of course, but never really had much success in management. ireland played a dreadful style of football under him and we just happened to be very lucky with a few unusually good players at the the same time. the others? all extremely average journeyman type managers.

trappatoni was our one high level manager but he was a dinosaur in footballing terms and hadn't won anything of note in almost 10 years when we got him.

yes ireland can never hope to match most other country's players with decent domestic leagues and high populations, but at least a top manager would dramatically improve us.

In his one season with Benfica back in 2005/05, he led them to their first title in over a decade.

Esse85

Is there really the need to start a new thread on this?

WesternZulu

The FAI has to shoulder most of the blame.
We should have some sort of reputable league here like they have in Denmark, Scotland, Norway, Belgium etc.

Decades and decades of neglect can't be ignored.

DeanAustin

froog wrote: »

let's be honest, we've never had a really great manager. charlton was a great player of course, but never really had much success in management. ireland played a dreadful style of football under him and we just happened to be very lucky with a few unusually good players at the the same time. the others? all extremely average journeyman type managers.

trappatoni was our one high level manager but he was a dinosaur in footballing terms and hadn't won anything of note in almost 10 years when we got him.

yes ireland can never hope to match most other country's players with decent domestic leagues and high populations, but at least a top manager would dramatically improve us.

I'm calling bollox on that. Charlton did a great job for Ireland. Everyone says he had great players. Eoin Hand had a similarly talented bunch of players as did John Giles and they qualified for nowt.

You also have to remember that there weren't too many envious glances from across the water at our players. Watch Brian Clough be scathing of Mick McCarthy before the England v Ireland tie in 1988 for example. Watch Emlyn Hughes decry the England performance in 1990 against us by saying "Come on. It's only Ireland."

We weren't rated. I remember those tournaments - nobody outside this island thought we were up to much and Big Jack got a lot out of that team.

Charlton's style was ugly and terrible to watch. But it was of its time. People were teaching the Charles Hughes philosophy at the time which is why managers like Graham Taylor, Bobby Gould and Dave Bassett were flourishing in England. And it wasn't just in England. The 1990 World Cup was an eyesore with pretty much every country employing a style that made us look not too bad.

The revisionism on Big Jack's reign, where people think he got lucky with a wonderful set of players, annoys be because Jack did far more than that and the team he had wasn't as good as people remember.

Rumple Stillson

DeanAustin wrote: »

I'm calling bollox on that. Charlton did a great job for Ireland. Everyone says he had great players. Eoin Hand had a similarly talented bunch of players as did John Giles and they qualified for nowt.

You also have to remember that there weren't too many envious glances from across the water at our players. Watch Brian Clough be scathing of Mick McCarthy before the England v Ireland tie in 1988 for example. Watch Emlyn Hughes decry the England performance in 1990 against us by saying "Come on. It's only Ireland."

We weren't rated. I remember those tournaments - nobody outside this island thought we were up to much and Big Jack got a lot out of that team.

Charlton's style was ugly and terrible to watch. But it was of its time. People were teaching the Charles Hughes philosophy at the time which is why managers like Graham Taylor, Bobby Gould and Dave Bassett were flourishing in England. And it wasn't just in England. The 1990 World Cup was an eyesore with pretty much every country employing a style that made us look not too bad.

The revisionism on Big Jack's reign, where people think he got lucky with a wonderful set of players, annoys be because Jack did far more than that and the team he had wasn't as good as people remember.

Were they really great players? Or were they reasonable players playing in a very poor league that hadn't seen the influx of players from all over the world. I have a feeling those very good players would be playing at clubs like Burnley in this era.

él statutorio

It's very simple.

We. Don't. Have. The. Players.

TheCitizen

DeanAustin wrote: »

I'm calling bollox on that. Charlton did a great job for Ireland. Everyone says he had great players. Eoin Hand had a similarly talented bunch of players as did John Giles and they qualified for nowt.

You also have to remember that there weren't too many envious glances from across the water at our players. Watch Brian Clough be scathing of Mick McCarthy before the England v Ireland tie in 1988 for example. Watch Emlyn Hughes decry the England performance in 1990 against us by saying "Come on. It's only Ireland."

We weren't rated. I remember those tournaments - nobody outside this island thought we were up to much and Big Jack got a lot out of that team.

Charlton's style was ugly and terrible to watch. But it was of its time. People were teaching the Charles Hughes philosophy at the time which is why managers like Graham Taylor, Bobby Gould and Dave Bassett were flourishing in England. And it wasn't just in England. The 1990 World Cup was an eyesore with pretty much every country employing a style that made us look not too bad.

The revisionism on Big Jack's reign, where people think he got lucky with a wonderful set of players, annoys be because Jack did far more than that and the team he had wasn't as good as people remember.

Do you remember Norway and what they were like around then. We played against them in 94. 0-0. If the match was still going on now there still would be no goal in it. Egil Olsen.

DeanAustin

Rumple Stillson wrote: »

Were they really great players? Or were they reasonable players playing in a very poor league that hadn't seen the influx of players from all over the world. I have a feeling those very good players would be playing at clubs like Burnley in this era.

You’re right. They were reasonable/good players and not much more for the most part. Bonner was a decent keeper but far from excellent. Morris was very limited, McCarthy was a stopper. Moran was decent but in Spain with Gijon at the time if I’m not wrong. Stan was good but still raw. McGrath was class and Jack probably under utilized his talents to accommodate the two centre backs in the team. Townsend, Houghton and Sheedy were all good but hardly world class. Quinn and Cascarino were limited big target men and Aldridge struggled at that time at international level.

It wasn’t a team of great players by any stretch.

You could argue for O’Leary, Brady and Stapleton but they were well past their prime and not in the team by 1990. But that’s the point, those three were very good players and played for managers before Jack with other decent players (Galvin, Lawro, Steve Heighway, Jim Beglin, Chris Hughton, John Giles, Don Givens etc.) and qualified for nothing.

Big Jack did a lot for football in this country ugly and all as his teams played.

Zico !

O Neills a dinosaur like Trapp before him total muck-arrogant little git

DeanAustin

TheCitizen wrote: »

Do you remember Norway and what they were like around then. We played against them in 94. 0-0. If the match was still going on now there still would be no goal in it. Egil Olsen.

Jesus that match was offensive. Norway under Olsen were criminally bad to watch. He did get results though.

BOHtox

él statutorio wrote: »

It's very simple.

We. Don't. Have. The. Players.

Or. Manager.

Richard Hillman

We can change the manager as much as we like but the reality is we have a historical record in big games of scoring a goal and then sitting back. We don't seem to have a courage to go for that second. We score and then panic. Sometimes we pull it off or score late enough but when Ireland score eaely, we can pretty much predict the rest of the match.

This isn't an O'Neill or Trapattoni thing, I can remember this happening as far back as Big Jack.

Zaph

froog wrote: »

yes ireland can never hope to match most other country's players with decent domestic leagues and high populations, but at least a top manager would dramatically improve us.

And why would a top quality manager of the level you envisage want to manage a national team with such a scarcity of decent talent and without that situation looking likely to change any time soon? Unfortunately the two are inextricably linked, without one you're never going to get the other.

DeanAustin

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We can change the manager as much as we like but the reality is we have a historical record in big games of scoring a goal and then sitting back. We don't seem to have a courage to go for that second. We score and then panic. Sometimes we pull it off or score late enough but when Ireland score eaely, we can pretty much predict the rest of the match.

This isn't an O'Neill or Trapattoni thing, I can remember this happening as far back as Big Jack.

Not saying you’re wrong but did it happen under Jack? I’m guessing England in ‘88 or Spain in ‘89 are probably the examples?

On the flip side, we demolished some teams (Malta/Turkey) and I even recall us comfortably beating the likes of Hungary and NI without falling back?

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

In his one season with Benfica back in 2005/05, he led them to their first title in over a decade.

Also won the Austrian league with the RedBull team as far as I remember

The_Kew_Tour

a Ireland that got to quarter final of world cup and last 16 following one. a team that were 8 minutes away from Semi Finals of Euro 88 and came 5th overall. 6th in the World Rankings around 1993

Beat Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, England and we're close to knocking out the Dutch team that had players like Van Basten Guillt and Rajkaard and knocked Euro Camps Denmark out of WC 94

but now would only be good enough for Burnley?

OK. ....

Rumple Stillson

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

a Ireland that got to quarter final of world cup and last 16 following one. a team that were 8 minutes away from Semi Finals of Euro 88 and came 5th overall. 6th in the World Rankings around 1993

Beat Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, England and we're close to knocking out the Dutch team that had players like Van Basten Guillt and Rajkaard and knocked Euro Camps Denmark out of WC 94

but now would only be good enough for Burnley?

OK. ....

Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Steve Staunton, Mick McCarthy (capt), Kevin Moran, Paul McGrath, Ray Houghton, Kevin Sheedy, Andy Townsend, John Aldridge (John Sheridan 78'), Niall Quinn (Tony Cascarino 54')

Paul McGrath aside, the rest of that team were quite ordinary. They may have been playing for decent sides but this was before the arrival of the premier league and influx of "foreign" players.

I think if you transported this current Irish team back in time, the likes of Brady, Hendrick, Ward (Burnley) might be playing for more prestigious clubs.

That was the jist of my point. I think Charlton did a really good job with the players he had, however crude his style, rather than held back a really great bunch of players.

BOHtox

Richard Hillman wrote: »

We can change the manager as much as we like but the reality is we have a historical record in big games of scoring a goal and then sitting back. We don't seem to have a courage to go for that second. We score and then panic. Sometimes we pull it off or score late enough but when Ireland score eaely, we can pretty much predict the rest of the match.

This isn't an O'Neill or Trapattoni thing, I can remember this happening as far back as Big Jack.

At 1-0 Murphy and McLean both had chances to go 2-0 up. We didn't sit back. They picked up the tempo and dominated us. Even at 2-1 down we went, overly, attacking.

But I don't accept that we sat back. Their second came from a quick break from our attack.

The_Kew_Tour

Rumple Stillson wrote: »

Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Steve Staunton, Mick McCarthy (capt), Kevin Moran, Paul McGrath, Ray Houghton, Kevin Sheedy, Andy Townsend, John Aldridge (John Sheridan 78'), Niall Quinn (Tony Cascarino 54')

Paul McGrath aside, the rest of that team were quite ordinary. They may have been playing for decent sides but this was before the arrival of the premier league and influx of "foreign" players.

I think if you transported this current Irish team back in time, the likes of Brady, Hendrick, Ward (Burnley) might be playing for more prestigious clubs.

That was the jist of my point. I think Charlton did a really good job with the players he had, however crude his style, rather than held back a really great bunch of players.

between 1974 WC and up to 2006 WC Ireland goal v Mexico in 94 had most passes out of any goal from WC game in that period.

they were very good players. should we say same about Brian Laudrup now or Guillt or Van Basten? come on

Wheety

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

a Ireland that got to quarter final of world cup and last 16 following one. a team that were 8 minutes away from Semi Finals of Euro 88 and came 5th overall. 6th in the World Rankings around 1993

Beat Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, England and we're close to knocking out the Dutch team that had players like Van Basten Guillt and Rajkaard and knocked Euro Camps Denmark out of WC 94

but now would only be good enough for Burnley?

OK. ....

Only 8 teams in Euro '88 :-D

The_Kew_Tour

Wheety wrote: »

Only 8 teams in Euro '88 :-D

Only 16 teams in many World Cups but we don't see England have a WC taken away from them for it.

we knocked out Belgium, Bulgaria and Scotland to reach that Euros. all fine sides then

Wheety

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Only 16 teams in many World Cups but we don't see England have a WC taken away from them for it.

we knocked out Belgium, Bulgaria and Scotland to reach that Euros. all fine sides then

You said we finished 5th as if that was a big achievement.

Rekop dog

Rumple Stillson wrote: »

Packie Bonner, Chris Morris, Steve Staunton, Mick McCarthy (capt), Kevin Moran, Paul McGrath, Ray Houghton, Kevin Sheedy, Andy Townsend, John Aldridge (John Sheridan 78'), Niall Quinn (Tony Cascarino 54')

Paul McGrath aside, the rest of that team were quite ordinary. They may have been playing for decent sides but this was before the arrival of the premier league and influx of "foreign" players.

I think if you transported this current Irish team back in time, the likes of Brady, Hendrick, Ward (Burnley) might be playing for more prestigious clubs.

That was the jist of my point. I think Charlton did a really good job with the players he had, however crude his style, rather than held back a really great bunch of players.

Ah here, Sheedy and Aldridge were fairly pivotal in League winning sides and arguably would have been European champs were it not for the English European ban at that time.

The_Kew_Tour

Wheety wrote: »

You said we finished 5th as if that was a big achievement.

it was