Condemned Ewe

kk.man

Just got Factory cheque and documents this evening in the post.
I got a slip from the Department stating one ewe was condemned with multiple abscses.
This ew was a 2nd crop female, very healthy live and eating meal for the last 6 weeks while on grass. I culled her because she had mastisis.

This is where it gets interesting the dept vet documents a different ear tag number than hers.

Where do I stand, what rights have I, what questions do I ask tomorrow when I ring the plant manager?

tomwaterford

Hardly kildare was it??


I dunno where you stand...but I am interested to see how this plays out

mcgiggles

Interested also. My fella has heard through the grapevine of this happening so was always wary about going factory route himself. Surely if its a wrong tag number then its not your one? Especially if she was a good ewe going in! But how to rectify it, or what to ask I've no idea.. sorry

White Clover

It is a mistake in my view. I'd ring up and say there has been a mix up...someone else's ewe has ended up on your kill sheet (as per tag number) and vice versa.
As Tom petty said...."Don't back down"

solerina

The last few times we have sent animals to the factory we haven’t gotten a kill sheet, or we have gotten an incomplete one. I am interested to see how you get on OP.

kk.man

No it wasn't kildare and if ye don't mind I wouldn't be mentioning the name.

I rang manager and he put me onto dept official who signed the form.
He was trying to pass it off as a kill number. I informed him I wasn't referring to the kill no and the tag number is written clearly twice on the document.

He took my number and is to get back to me that was six hours ago.

White Clover

kk.man wrote: »

No it wasn't kildare and if ye don't mind I wouldn't be mentioning the name.

I rang manager and he put me onto dept official who signed the form.
He was trying to pass it off as a kill number. I informed him I wasn't referring to the kill no and the tag number is written clearly twice on the document.

He took my number and is to get back to me that was six hours ago.

Keep the pressure on. Would it be worth ringing again today?
Did he explain to you the condition of the carcass and you to him the condition of the ewe?
To my mind they don't add up.

kk.man

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

tomwaterford

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

Begs the question who got paid for your ewe??



(Only asked about kildare,as I've heard too many stories about there over last 3-4 months)

kk.man

tomwaterford wrote: »

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

Begs the question who got paid for your ewe??



(Only asked about kildare,as I've heard too many stories about there over last 3-4 months)

I know your right but it opens up a can of worms.
1. If someone else got paid who foots the bill?
2. I had a batch of lambs in with the ewe...were these my lambs I got paid for?

kk.man

kk.man wrote: »

tomwaterford wrote: »

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

Begs the question who got paid for your ewe??



(Only asked about kildare,as I've heard too many stories about there over last 3-4 months)

I know your right but it opens up a can of worms.
1. If someone else got paid who foots the bill?
2. I had a batch of lambs in with the ewe...were these my lambs I got paid for?

Oh and traceability!

J.O. Farmer

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

She would've lost both tags when they took her head off but they're supposed to be able to maintain the correlation between the carcass and the tag number.

However if they didn't would that be a reason for condemning the carcass as traceability would be lost. In that case the factory should foot the bill.

If it's an administrative mix up where someone else got paid for your ewe the factory should pay you and try to get the overpayment back from whoever did get paid.

sea12

Not surprised someone mentioned Kildare. Twice in the past 12 months I've experienced dodgy kills. One instance a ewe "was dead in the pen" no cert provided even when I followed up.
Recently poor weight wise hogget put down as as s ewe and a ewe put down as a hogget. Did me out of 23€. So you would really want to see your own sheep going up the line

tabby aspreme

Had a similar issue a few years ago, I got the incorrect returns and tag numbers for ewes that were scrapie tested in the factory, never got a satisfactory answer, they blamed the foreign workers not being able to read, I thought the ewes picked out for testing should have greater tracability , but not in this case, brought it up with the bord bia inspector also and got nowhere.

grassroot1

I sent 13 ewes to ICM Camolin a few years ago and got back kill sheets for 12. They were paying to a max of 40 kg at the time and all bar 2 were over 40 kg dead weight. When I enquired about the missing ewe she had been held over for scrapie testing(I wasn't informed) and killed 2 days later at 18kg carcase. I was bucking at the time but didn't do anything about it. Reading the op's story I wonder.

MayoAreMagic

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

Losing a tag doesn't explain how she got a new tag number though. The reality is, the evidence is there that the ewe with the tag number is in fact the condemned ewe and that cannot be denied. She also isn't yours and that cant be denied either. You are missing a payment for a healthy 2 year old ewe. Where the condemned ewe came from is their problem.

I wonder if you hadn't mentioned she was condemned, and that there was an animal on your sheet that wasn't yours, would you be waiting the full day to get a response?

kk.man

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

kk.man wrote: »

Just rang them back..they are in a bit of a tizzy now...kinda suggesting she lost a tag..which is not the case...all my ewes have two tags ...they going to get back to me

Losing a tag doesn't explain how she got a new tag number though. The reality is, the evidence is there that the ewe with the tag number is in fact the condemned ewe and that cannot be denied. She also isn't yours and that cant be denied either. You are missing a payment for a healthy 2 year old ewe. Where the condemned ewe came from is their problem.

I wonder if you hadn't mentioned she was condemned, and that there was an animal on your sheet that wasn't yours, would you be waiting the full day to get a response?

Still waiting...hadnt time to followed it up today. Good call though.

kk.man

Just to let ye all know today I got a verbal admission that it was not my ewe that was condemned. I had to ring (again) but the head vet confirmed this to me. He informed me the veterinary officer responsible would call me today but never did.
Anyway no need to create a fight yet anyhow!

grassroot1

kk.man wrote: »

Just to let ye all know today I got a verbal admission that it was not my ewe that was condemned. I had to ring (again) but the head vet confirmed this to me. He informed me the veterinary officer responsible would call me today but never did.
Anyway no need to create a fight yet anyhow!

The veterinary officer and the factory have a lot to explain.
Bord Bia quaility assurance me arse

Sheep breeder

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

She would've lost both tags when they took her head off but they're supposed to be able to maintain the correlation between the carcass and the tag number.

However if they didn't would that be a reason for condemning the carcass as traceability would be lost. In that case the factory should foot the bill.

If it's an administrative mix up where someone else got paid for your ewe the factory should pay you and try to get the overpayment back from whoever did get paid.

When every sheep is hung on the line after killing its tag is read and in putted for the computer at the scales and given a kill number to match up.

J.O. Farmer

Sheep breeder wrote: »

When every sheep is hung on the line after killing its tag is read and in putted for the computer at the scales and given a kill number to match up.

Yeah that's the correlation I was talking about but if they somehow managed to put the wrong ewe on the ops kill sheet they could screw that simple procedure too.

It probably doesn't happen often but I do wonder how often it does. It's a human inputting into the computer and give them a chance to make a mistake and they will. Everybody does and I'd be no different.

kk.man

Rang factory this morning, cheque is in the post.

MayoAreMagic

kk.man wrote: »

Rang factory this morning, cheque is in the post.

It's a shame the cowboys pushing the 'kill number' and in particular the 'lost a tag' spiels wont get reprimanded for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of their customer. If something like that happened in a different line of business it would make the paper.

tomwaterford

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It's a shame the cowboys pushing the 'kill number' and in particular the 'lost a tag' spiels wont get reprimanded for trying to pull the wool over the eyes of their customer. If something like that happened in a different line of business it would make the paper.

To be pedantic Would kk.man here not be a supplier and the factory a customer?



Tread deos raise questions wheter or not lads are getting paid for the right lambs when they send them into factories

It's a joke tbh this tracibility

paddysdream

Sheep breeder wrote: »

When every sheep is hung on the line after killing its tag is read and in putted for the computer at the scales and given a kill number to match up.

Are you sure?
Is it not the case that the lambs are killed from the pen in whatever order they come and the carcasses are then numbered as per the order of tags on the dispatch docket.Know for certain that my lamb returns do not correlate with the actual tag number
Have seen this a good few times.Try it by noting the heaviest and lightest lamb numbers in a batch and see if they match up with the kill sheet returns.Ok know lamb kill out ain't an exact thing but with the last few lambs here any year there could be a few maybe 50 plus kilos and more 37/38 kilo liveweight.Hard to mix those returns up.

One factory even print it on the returns that they cannot guarentee that the tag numbers and carcase weights will correlate correctly.

serfspup

these are the kind of arguments that WILL be used to force electronic tagging of all lambs (like in the UK) and we will be paying for it and it is all bullsh1tuised to screw the primary producer

Green farmer

I'd be going the opposite way. Every lamb should just tag saying your flock number. No need for anymore information. Doesn't nz export on a vastly larger scale then and I remember reading they have either a very basic tagging system or no tagging at all.

ganmo

paddysdream wrote: »

One factory even print it on the returns that they cannot guarentee that the tag numbers and carcase weights will correlate correctly.

Which factory is that?

We weigh and tag in one go so we generally know the weights. And we regularly notice weights not matching up.but I'm surprised to see them admitting it

razor8

ganmo wrote: »

Which factory is that?

We weigh and tag in one go so we generally know the weights. And we regularly notice weights not matching up.but I'm surprised to see them admitting it

How would it work if you had bought lambs from different sellers and brought them as batch to factory and something was wrong with some of them. How could they guarantee traceability. I correlate all lambs here and majority seem right & nearly all killed in ICM. Tag and kill number are not in sequence

paddysdream

ganmo wrote: »

Which factory is that?

We weigh and tag in one go so we generally know the weights. And we regularly notice weights not matching up.but I'm surprised to see them admitting it

From the bottom of each kill sheet;

Irish Country Meats (ICM) are fully committed to providing producers with maximum production data in conjunction with slaughter returns.To ensure full traceability it is a statutory requirement that producer flock number is transferred to each carcase processed.Every effort is also made to accurately record individual lamb tag details however for non EID tagged animals it is established that current producer declaration and processor recording system is prone to human error.In this context we wish to advise producers that no responsibility is assumed by ICM for any inaccuracies of information transfer and data provided is done so in good faith to assist enterprise management.

paddysdream

serfspup wrote: »

these are the kind of arguments that WILL be used to force electronic tagging of all lambs (like in the UK) and we will be paying for it and it is all bullsh1tuised to screw the primary producer

Thats not an issue anymore as full EID to be introduced here early next year.The cost imposition of EID (1 euro approx) on lambs being sold direct from farm of birth to factory is a joke.Thats 1k or so on a farmer selling 1000 lambs a year.Not exactly what a low margin sector needs.
Tagged lambs here this morning at 7am,in factory at 8:30 and tags in the skip by ?10am ?

.All EID is useful for is to
(a)cut factory and mart costs and we all know that their margins are all important to Ireland INC.
(b)allow Bord Bia Origin Green etc etc to claim that we have gold standard traceability which of course will open all these amazing new markets for our lamb and will ensure 6 euro a kilo all year round.Something like the much publicised export of beef to USA,and before that to some other amazing and exotic place that the incumbent Minister thought my be nice for a weekend break whilst promoting the red headed child of Irish agriculture (ie anything thats not milk based)

tomwaterford

razor8 wrote: »

How would it work if you had bought lambs from different sellers and brought them as batch to factory and something was wrong with some of them. How could they guarantee traceability. I correlate all lambs here and majority seem right & nearly all killed in ICM. Tag and kill number are not in sequence

I was working in a place and there was lambs like this...couple hundred bought in etc

We had about 80 In a house with no tags (lost etc)..factory agents said to young lads who came to help load etc,make up numbers for them


Sure what are we at like?

ganmo

paddysdream wrote: »

From the bottom of each kill sheet;

Irish Country Meats (ICM) are fully committed to providing producers with maximum production data in conjunction with slaughter returns.To ensure full traceability it is a statutory requirement that producer flock number is transferred to each carcase processed.Every effort is also made to accurately record individual lamb tag details however for non EID tagged animals it is established that current producer declaration and processor recording system is prone to human error.In this context we wish to advise producers that no responsibility is assumed by ICM for any inaccuracies of information transfer and data provided is done so in good faith to assist enterprise management.

Must have a look back and see when they started putting that on.

kk.man

paddysdream wrote: »

serfspup wrote: »

these are the kind of arguments that WILL be used to force electronic tagging of all lambs (like in the UK) and we will be paying for it and it is all bullsh1tuised to screw the primary producer

Thats not an issue anymore as full EID to be introduced here early next year.The cost imposition of EID (1 euro approx) on lambs being sold direct from farm of birth to factory is a joke.Thats 1k or so on a farmer selling 1000 lambs a year.Not exactly what a low margin sector needs.
Tagged lambs here this morning at 7am,in factory at 8:30 and tags in the skip by ?10am ?

.All EID is useful for is to
(a)cut factory and mart costs and we all know that their margins are all important to Ireland INC.
(b)allow Bord Bia Origin Green etc etc to claim that we have gold standard traceability which of course will open all these amazing new markets for our lamb and will ensure 6 euro a kilo all year round.Something like the much publicised export of beef to USA,and before that to some other amazing and exotic place that the incumbent Minister thought my be nice for a weekend break whilst promoting the red headed child of Irish agriculture (ie anything thats not milk based)

My sentiments exactly!
Plus some farmer being penalised as a result of an inspection for missing tags !

Hard Knocks

If marts & factories want EID tags in my lambs, I’ve no problem applying them if they supply them.
The 90c between mart tags & eid is of benefit to them & not me.
If they pay mullinahone / elite / Cormac, I’ll do the rest

paddysdream

ganmo wrote: »

Must have a look back and see when they started putting that on.

At least a couple of years I think,maybe longer.

Talking of ICM,have they dropped the "voluntary" vet declaration they used to have in the security hut?
Started off as a form asking if your sheep were cloned or has been treated with quinolones(sp) and something else.
Had to ask my vet what these drugs were.
Many who signed the form did so without even looking at it as it was presented as something related to dropping in the lambs.
They then posted up a list of the trade names of the drugs.When asked they said it was just a survey for one particular customer.
Havent see it in a while

paddysdream

Hard Knocks wrote: »

If marts & factories want EID tags in my lambs, I’ve no problem applying them if they supply them.
The 90c between mart tags & eid is of benefit to them & not me.
If they pay mullinahone / elite / Cormac, I’ll do the rest

If the processors are asked to pay part or all of the cost of the tags then they are sure to factor that into the price offered.Nothing for nothing in this world!!
Would it not be better to get Bord Bia etc to pay the difference between the tip tag and the EID tag ?We are always being told that this or that extra layer of bureaucracy will do wonders for our price with all the sales it will bring as our representatives are always behind the game.Put their money(not ours,well not only the primary producers money anyways) where their mouth is.
Absolutely no benefit whatsoever to anyone selling direct to a factory from farm of origin from EID ,only extra cost with no reduction in paperwork or record keeping.
Also whatever about the extra cost on a 100 euro factory lamb (1%),what about the cost per head on a 20kg horny store lamb sold in the mart.

paddysdream

Could we write the following into the herd register or on dispatch book ?

Irish sheep farmers are fully committed to providing the Dept of Ag./EU with maximum traceability data in conjunction with compliant record keeping.It is a statutory requirment that full records of all movements etc are kept for all sheep in the flock.Every effort is made to accurately record each and every movement and/or event however it is established that no system is perfect eg Ministerial emails,Pulse,Garda breath testing returns,Bank records,offshore tax avoidance accounts,charity accounts,developers prsi returns,TD expense claims, etc etc ad infinitum..........and is of course prone to human error.In this context we wish to advise Dept inspectors, Bord Bia inspectors etc that no responsibility is assumed by me "John/Mary Sheep Farmer " for any inaccuracies of information transfer and data provided is done so in good faith to assist the Dept etc in drawing down their public sector salaries and presumably a good pension after retirement.

Would that pass muster ?

Sheep breeder

paddysdream wrote: »

Are you sure?
Is it not the case that the lambs are killed from the pen in whatever order they come and the carcasses are then numbered as per the order of tags on the dispatch docket.Know for certain that my lamb returns do not correlate with the actual tag number
Have seen this a good few times.Try it by noting the heaviest and lightest lamb numbers in a batch and see if they match up with the kill sheet returns.Ok know lamb kill out ain't an exact thing but with the last few lambs here any year there could be a few maybe 50 plus kilos and more 37/38 kilo liveweight.Hard to mix those returns up.

One factory even print it on the returns that they cannot guarentee that the tag numbers and carcase weights will correlate correctly.

In 3 years working in a factory that was the way it worked lambs were batch killed and read by a guy on the line after the sheep come out of the blood bath and put into the computer as a kill number to match the tag and the exact same as the cattle line, you say that full electric tag is coming in 2018 where did you see that,

razor8

paddysdream wrote: »

Could we write the following into the herd register or on dispatch book ?

Irish sheep farmers are fully committed to providing the Dept of Ag./EU with maximum traceability data in conjunction with compliant record keeping.It is a statutory requirment that full records of all movements etc are kept for all sheep in the flock.Every effort is made to accurately record each and every movement and/or event however it is established that no system is perfect eg Ministerial emails,Pulse,Garda breath testing returns,Bank records,offshore tax avoidance accounts,charity accounts,developers prsi returns,TD expense claims, etc etc ad infinitum..........and is of course prone to human error.In this context we wish to advise Dept inspectors, Bord Bia inspectors etc that no responsibility is assumed by me "John/Mary Sheep Farmer " for any inaccuracies of information transfer and data provided is done so in good faith to assist the Dept etc in drawing down their public sector salaries and presumably a good pension after retirement.

Would that pass muster ?

and get them to sign the bottom to say they read it!!

wrangler

Sheep breeder wrote: »

In 3 years working in a factory that was the way it worked lambs were batch killed and read by a guy on the line after the sheep come out of the blood bath and put into the computer as a kill number to match the tag and the exact same as the cattle line, you say that full electric tag is coming in 2018 where did you see that,

Those guys are reading about 250 per hour....there has to be allowance for errors.
I don't think EID is coming in next year, at a euro/lamb it'd need to be reflected in the market first......not brought in on spec

We use EIDs here I can see why the factories want them

Ard_MC

wrangler wrote: »

Those guys are reading about 250 per hour....there has to be allowance for errors.
I don't think EID is coming in next year, at a euro/lamb it'd need to be reflected in the market first......not brought in on spec

We use EIDs here I can see why the factories want them

Welcome back.